Lack of finances=lack of faith?

[LouisBooth]

"You said you don't need to strictly adhere to the laws of Moses, so why read them at all. "

I don't have to adhere to what God tells me at all, but he does know what's best, so I better listen, same goes for his law.

"Do you know that nobody gave himself/herself life and that everyone is the way he/she is due to his genes and environment? "

Not true. You're poor sometimes because you're born poor. You're only poor because you work. Like Paul himself says, they dont' work, they don't get fed. You have to pull your wieght. That's what I'm talking about.

"How do you know I am not struggling? I don't like these type of baseless judgements. "

Are you?

"I didn't say it is wrong to have money, but it is wrong to be rich. "

then just by you living in america you're wrong.

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by SnuP
We are saying that by storing up treasures in heaven, God has this tendency of blessing us on earth with earthly riches. These riches are not treasures to us, so we tend to give them away (we are not storing them). God desires to pour you out a blessing that you cannot bear, but only if all of your treasures are in heaven and not on earth.

If you dont store but give away, you can't be rich. A rich person is one who store his/her treasure on earth.

This is simply untrue. At salvation we reciece all of God, all of God, all. The problem is that many have a simple problem of releasing it. It like buying a new computer system with all of the bells and whisles. when you first get it home you already own every thing, but it may take you months to learn all of the software, and years the master it.

The act of learning implies your spirituality is improving i.e increase in degree.

 When we are saved we become exactly like Jesus, except for our old habbits which seem to pop up and our fears and our judgements and our character.

You are not like Jesus. See you have said "except". But do you know what is the percentage that one is like Christ. So don't use the phrase we are exaclty like Jesus

 

But we have everything that Jesus had at our disposal, all the power and athority and spirituality.

Everyone has including the nonsaved. The more you obey and believe in the Words of Christ, the more you recieve spiritual power.

 We are perfect, exept for our flesh. But like Jesus we are given power over our flesh, but we must chose to use it, we must chose to release it. You can do everthing that Jesus did starting tomorrow if you will just do two simple things.

Misuse of the word perfect. Perfetion should be reserved to God. While we are physical we cannot be perfect and thats why we have to keep on seeking the Kingdom of God. True if obey the commandment to Love our God withh all our heart we can move mountains, but as I said we are limited by the physical hence we cannot be perfect while on earth.


 

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth

I don't have to adhere to what God tells me at all, but he does know what's best, so I better listen, same goes for his law.

But it is required that you adhere to the teachings of Christ. If you obey His teachings you will find that the Holy Spirit will guide you hence you don't need to memorize the bible or need a paster to understand spirituality. There is only one teacher, Holy Spirit.

Not true. You're poor sometimes because you're born poor. You're only poor because you work. Like Paul himself says, they dont' work, they don't get fed. You have to pull your wieght. That's what I'm talking about.

 

Then they need to be educated rather than blamed, There is something (genes and environment) that makes one to be the way he/she is. So as Christians we should provide a conducive environment for them to support themselves. We should not blame them and store 100 million dollars in the bank doing nothing.

I am not a follower of Paul but Christ. Although I believe his words had a high degree of truthfulness.

Are you?

 

I am and I think everyone strives to a certain degree even without knowing i.e there is a degree of goodness in everyone. 

then just by you living in america you're wrong.

Living in America does not guarantee riches, there are plenty of beggars in the streets. 

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by spiritualscientist
 

Who said they were worried? We were discussing their financial wealth. You were on the opinion that Jesus was very rich. But I was trying to say if He was rich the disciples would not have said they don't have enough money to feed the 5000. Try to stick to the context of our discussion.

You said they were having a problem, which infers they were worried.  I did not say Jesus was very rich.  I said the He and the disciples did not seem to be going in want.  I seriously doubt Jesus conjured up food everywhere they went.  I am sticking to the context of our discussion.



I meant true spirituality. Spirituality is in degrees. While we are in physical form we cannot be able to attain 100% spirituality. The more we need to move into spirituality (seek the Kingdom of God) the more we must forget the physical. Here I am talking about total dedication to God as in worship and prayers 

Then why did God say, "be ye perfect, as I am perfect?"  One cannot pick and choose certain scriptures and accurately call themselves a christian. 

I am already in total dedication to God as in worhsip and prayers.  Scripture says to, "pray without ceasing".  If one can't be going about their daily tasks and still be totally dedicated to God as in worship and prayer, then they again cannot accurately call themselves a christian.

They each got a piece.

Huh?  What scripture does it say the garment was torn in pieces?


There is no error only if we assume there were different lawyers But there is no reason to be confident that it is not an error. \

You're not gettin' off that easy bucko! If the entire chapters are read there is every reason to be confident there is no error.  Even if it were the same lawyer, it is a different day, part of the day, or part of the conversation.  You're trying to duck out on your miscomprehension.

Alright what about this


Matthew 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 
Luke 6:20 Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God

In Matthew it is "poor in spirit" in Luke it is just "poor" 

Up front, it again looks like two different settings.  He's talking to the same people, his disciples, but it's differnt times.  Before and after events are different. Again, this is not an error.  Everytime you talk on the same subject do you repeat yourself exactly as you did the last time you spoke on that subject?  

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by Quaffer

You said they were having a problem, which infers they were worried.  I did not say Jesus was very rich.  I said the He and the disciples did not seem to be going in want.  I seriously doubt Jesus conjured up food everywhere they went.  I am sticking to the context of our discussion.

Having a problem does not mean worry. You can have problem but you are not worried. They had a problem with cash, but Jesus was not worried since He knew He can perfom miracles.

 

Then why did God say, "be ye perfect, as I am perfect?"  One cannot pick and choose certain scriptures and accurately call themselves a christian. 

We are required to strive to be perfect but as long as we are on earth we cannot be perfect i.e we cannot be Gods. If you claim you are perfect then you are simply misusing the word perfect

I am already in total dedication to God as in worhsip and prayers.  Scripture says to, "pray without ceasing".  If one can't be going about their daily tasks and still be totally dedicated to God as in worship and prayer, then they again cannot accurately call themselves a christian.

You have a degree of dedication. Total dedication is unacheivable while you are in the physical. You are simply misusing the word total.

You're not gettin' off that easy bucko! If the entire chapters are read there is every reason to be confident there is no error.  Even if it were the same lawyer, it is a different day, part of the day, or part of the conversation.  You're trying to duck out on your miscomprehension.

Alright what about this


Matthew 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 
Luke 6:20 Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God

In Matthew it is "poor in spirit" in Luke it is just "poor" 

Up front, it again looks like two different settings.  He's talking to the same people, his disciples, but it's differnt times.  Before and after events are different. Again, this is not an error.  Everytime you talk on the same subject do you repeat yourself exactly as you did the last time you spoke on that subject? 

Why do always assume they are different events? The chronology of events in the Gospels are not the same. Find out for yourself since you claim you know the scripture very well.

This was sermon on the mountain so it was the same event.


And also I would like you to explain the following scripture

Luke 6:20 Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God

 

[SnuP]

Luke 6:20 -
It is the same as Jesus saying that He was sent to preach the goodnews to the poor. Same meaning. It is because of their plite that Jesus is sent (one reason). The kingdom of God does not just mean heaven, unless you think that God's kingdom is limited to heaven. No rather we also are the kingdom of God. By inheiriting the Kingdom of God you inheirit fellowship. Fellowship with God and your brothers. You inherit the Body of Christ.

Hebrews 10:
14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.ӣ
17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.ӣ
18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Matt.:19
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Luke: 6
38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

This plainly shows the principle that God uses to make one rich that always gives away.  God's economy is different from the worlds economy.  He says if you give it away I will give even more to you.

Notice also the perfection that those in Hebrew have.  They are perfect because of Jesus, as are we.  They can do what a priest could not because the priest is not perfect.  They can enter the most holy place any time they want.  If that isn't perfection then what is.  I love going to the most holy place.  If is the most wonderful place imaginable.  Have you ever been.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by spiritualscientist
Having a problem does not mean worry. You can have problem but you are not worried. They had a problem with cash, but Jesus was not worried since He knew He can perfom miracles.

 

We are required to strive to be perfect but as long as we are on earth we cannot be perfect i.e we cannot be Gods. If you claim you are perfect then you are simply misusing the word perfect

I am not claiming to be perfect.  But God called us to perfection so it must be attainable.


You have a degree of dedication. Total dedication is unacheivable while you are in the physical. You are simply misusing the word total.

You are not the judge of anyone's heart.  So you cannot accurately say that.



Why do always assume they are different events? The chronology of events in the Gospels are not the same. Find out for yourself since you claim you know the scripture very well.

This was sermon on the mountain so it was the same event.

Two times hardly qualifies as always.  These could be the same event and then it might not be.  Compare the "blessed are" lists.  Matthew's is longer.  Jesus goes on to other things after just a few of "blessed are's".  Luke recorded several "woe's"  which Matt does not mention.  I still do not see a contradiction.  Even if it is the same event. 

And also I would like you to explain the following scripture

Luke 6:20 Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God 

See SnuP's notes below. If I have anything to add I will later.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Andrew
quote: "What scripture?"

2Co 8:9
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

¥ prosperity part of the cross!

No. No. No. No. That is not what this verse is speaking about.  what it is speaking about is that Jesus was in Heaven and then He became a man like us and also that He became sin for us to save us.  It is not about making us rich.  Thank God for that. 

Ro 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

¥ now it says all things -- not basic needs!

 

Mainly this is about God giving us salvation but yes it is about Him giving s more than what we need.  However I fail to see how this verse says that He will thus gives us material wealth. 

  3 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

¥ well here's your health and wealth "gospel" in a nutshell. [/B]

 

I find no problem with one wanting to prosper in business.  But this verse does not say that one will prosper materially if you have enough faith. 

  1Ti 6:17
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

¥ hmmm again doesnt sound like just basic needs which we aren't supp to enjoy! [/B]

 

Sure God gives us all things and we should trust in Him and not in money.  Again I fail to see how this verse helps your cause.  it actually hurts it because of your emhasis on material wealth which Paul is condemming here. 

  1Co 4:8
Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

¥ can the poor reign in life? [/B]

 

Umm they were not financially rich.  If you read church history most of the early Christians were poor.  Of course there were some exceptions but this verse is speaking about other riches. Not being rich financially.  Like I could say I am rich because my wife loves me.  I am rich in love. 

  Prov 3:16
Length of days is in her right hand, In her left are wealth and honour.

¥ hmmm Godly wealth from the Lord that comes with honour! [/B]

 

Okay this verse is speaking about wisdom.  I donot have a problem with someone saying that someone who is wise is going ot be rich but this does not necessarily mean financial wealth.  It could but this again is not a verse that really proves your point. 

  Prov 8:18
Riches and honor are with me, enduring wealth and prosperity.

¥ again Godly wealth endures! [/B]

 

Again another verse on wisdom.  Didn't we already go over this chapter though? And this verse is another one that goes against your view more than helps it.  Why are the riches enduring? Because they are not like erthly riches that rot and rust.  Look at the next verse.


Prov 8:19
19 "My fruit is better than gold, even pure gold, and my yield {better} than choicest silver.
(NAU)

  Prov 8:21
endowing with wealth those who love me, and filling their treasuries.

¥ filling their treasuries.... basic necessities? doesnt sound like it! [/B]

 

Ditto from the verse above.  look at the verse in the KJV.


Prov 8:21
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.
(KJV)

I looked this one up in the JFB commentary and it says that the only real substance is God Himself.  But again financial riches seem the less important of the wealth spoken of in this verse. 

Prov 10:4
A slack hand causes poverty, but the hand of the diligent makes rich.

¥ quite clear remaining poor isnt praised. [/B]

 

No it is just a condemming of laziness.  laziness equals one being poor.   

  Prov 10:15
A rich man's wealth is his strong city; the poverty of the poor is their ruin.

¥ again, poverty is something good, plain and simple! [/B]

 


Proverbs 10:15

Marks of wisdom and of folly


 This may be taken two ways:--
 1. As a reason why we should be diligent in our business, that we may avoid that sinking dispiriting uneasiness which attends poverty, and may enjoy the benefit and comfort which those have that are beforehand in the world. Taking pains is really the way to make ourselves and our families easy. Or, rather,
 2. As a representation of the common mistakes both of rich and poor, concerning their outward condition.
 (1.) rich people think themselves happy because they are rich; but it is their mistake: The rich man's wealth is, in his own conceit, his strong city, whereas the worst of evils it is too weak and utterly insufficient to protect them from. It will prove that they are not so safe as they imagine; nay, their wealth may perhaps expose them.
 (2.) poor people think themselves undone because they are poor; but it is their mistake: The destruction of the poor is their poverty; it sinks their spirits, and ruins all their comforts; whereas a man may live very comfortably, though he has but a little to live on, if he be but content, and keep a good conscience, and live by faith.
(from Matthew Henry's Commentary)

  Prov 10:22
The blessing of the LORD, it maketh rich, and he addeth no sorrow with it.

¥ yes, no need to feel apologetic cos Jesus sure aint apologetic for it! [/B]

 

sure no one should feel bad about being rich unless they are hording their wealth.  i am not gainst being rich.  I am against the belief that God wants everyone rich and none of these verses so far have shown that. 

Deu 28:
1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:

¥ can the poor be high above all nations?? [/B]

 

Okay this is covenant between God and the nation of Israel.  it is a conditional covenant.  IT does not prove that all that do what He commands will be "set thee on high above all nations[/u] of the earth." while on Earth. 

2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

¥ wow! blessings overtaking me! doesnt sound like basic needs! [/B]

sure with God comes much blessing.  But again I do not see how this covenant automatically makes it so that you will experience all they would of on earth.  I do not see a promise from God to us about that. 

  3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

¥ sounds pretty much material to me!

5 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.

6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

8 The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

11 And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

plenteous in goods? But Lord, some say only what's needed! ok they're wrong!

12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.

so are the poor lending? more like they are the borrowers!

13 And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

want me to go on? let's see...prosperity is part of redemption:

39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit. [/B]

Okay I am not going to go through each of these verses since I will be just saying the same things over and over again. 

  plus

Ga 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Hallelujah! We are redeemed from poverty!!! so how can one say God wants some poor!!!???[/b] [/B]

Okay Christ paid our debt on the cross so now we can live for Him and gain His blessings and live eternally with Him in Heaven after this life.  Sure this is saying we gain the blessings liek we actually were keeping the law but I do not see where this sis saying we will have material blessings. 

 

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by SnuP
Luke 6:20 -
It is the same as Jesus saying that He was sent to preach the goodnews to the poor. Same meaning. It is because of their plite that Jesus is sent (one reason). The kingdom of God does not just mean heaven, unless you think that God's kingdom is limited to heaven. No rather we also are the kingdom of God. By inheiriting the Kingdom of God you inheirit fellowship. Fellowship with God and your brothers. You inherit the Body of Christ.

This is simply a common belief that has been passed on from generation to generation among saved Christians. It has no basis.

Why would Jesus only want the poor to hear the good news. Everyone needs to hear good news. The poor were willing to listen to Jesus preach since the rich are busy either looking for money or obsessed with other material wants. Hence it is easier for the pooor to humble themselves, forget the world and accept spirituality, since they have nothing to lose in the world.

 

If you read the sermon you will find there were statements that were opposite, for example

Luke 6:20  "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
 24  "But woe to you that are rich, for you have received your consolation.

The rich have already recieved thier consolation ie. this world, the poor will receive it outside this world.

Hebrews 10:
14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.ӣ
17Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.ӣ
18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.
19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

I like it that the laws are put in our hearts and mind. We don't need to read the old testament.

When our sins are forgiven it doesn't imply that we can no longer sin. As long we are physical we will continue sinning hence we cannot be perfect. 

 

Matt.:19
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

I like it the verse should be a lesson for those who are saying "blessed are the rich"

Luke: 6
38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

This plainly shows the principle that God uses to make one rich that always gives away.  God's economy is different from the worlds economy.  He says if you give it away I will give even more to you.

What this means is if God gives you 100 give also back 100 so your total material wealth is 0. To God material wealth is nothing since you are only in this world for a short period of time and undergo a test. You can't be tested properly if you live in luxury.

Notice also the perfection that those in Hebrew have.  They are perfect because of Jesus, as are we.  They can do what a priest could not because the priest is not perfect.  They can enter the most holy place any time they want.  If that isn't perfection then what is.  I love going to the most holy place.  If is the most wonderful place imaginable.  Have you ever been.

People can sing perfection all the time but only do so in vain. Perfection  is not practical in physical form. It is attainable only spiritually.

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by Quaffer

I am not claiming to be perfect.  But God called us to perfection so it must be attainable.

Perfection is only attainable spiritually

You are not the judge of anyone's heart.  So you cannot accurately say that.

I am not judging your heart. I am talking about the reallmeaning of total. Your meaning of total is different from mine and thats why you think it is judgemental. Total means complete surrender. God is spiritual, you can't completely surrender yourself while you are in physical. You only surrender yourself to your utmost ability. This does not imply total.

Two times hardly qualifies as always.  These could be the same event and then it might not be.  Compare the "blessed are" lists.  Matthew's is longer.  Jesus goes on to other things after just a few of "blessed are's".  Luke recorded several "woe's"  which Matt does not mention.  I still do not see a contradiction.  Even if it is the same event. 

It is two consecutive times so it is always as per the the two occassions.
Matthew and Luke are two different writers, you don't expect them to write exactly the same thing.

I didn't say there is a contradiction. I am saying one of them wrote an error. I am only trying to prove the bible is not error free, I am not looking for contradictions.

Luke 6:20 Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God 

See SnuP's notes below. If I have anything to add I will later.

I thought you are one of those people who saying "Blessed are the rich"
Look at the following scriptures, and I would like you to tell me where you are getting this belief from.

Luke 6:20 Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God

Luke 6:24  "But woe to you that are rich, for you have received your consolation.

Matt 6:19-21
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by spiritualscientist
This is simply a common belief that has been passed on from generation to generation among saved Christians. It has no basis.

Why would Jesus only want the poor to hear the good news. Everyone needs to hear good news. The poor were willing to listen to Jesus preach since the rich are busy either looking for money or obsessed with other material wants. Hence it is easier for the pooor to humble themselves, forget the world and accept spirituality, since they have nothing to lose in the world.

Not all rich people are as you describe.  Are you maybe too lazy to work hard and support yourself? Your family?  Etc?

Who are you moochin' off?  If they did not have money how would you survive?


If you read the sermon you will find there were statements that were opposite, for example

Luke 6:20  "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
 24  "But woe to you that are rich, for you have received your consolation.

The rich have already recieved thier consolation ie. this world, the poor will receive it outside this world.


I like it that the laws are put in our hearts and mind. We don't need to read the old testament.

Jesus read the OT.  What makes you think you're better than He.

When our sins are forgiven it doesn't imply that we can no longer sin. As long we are physical we will continue sinning hence we cannot be perfect. 

That's not true.  It is written "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (2 Peter 1:10)

I like it the verse should be a lesson for those who are saying "blessed are the rich"

No one is saying blessed are the rich in money.  We're saying that God's children are blessed.  Those who "abide in Him and His Word abides in them, can ask for anything, and it will be done".  Jesus said that.  WE ARE BLESSED! Spiritually and physically.  Jesus did a WHOLE job not a HALF job.

What this means is if God gives you 100 give also back 100 so your total material wealth is 0. To God material wealth is nothing since you are only in this world for a short period of time and undergo a test. You can't be tested properly if you live in luxury.



People can sing perfection all the time but only do so in vain. Perfection  is not practical in physical form. It is attainable only spiritually.

Me thinks you have found a loop-hole for being lazy and slack.

Jesus was not saying you're blessed because your poor.  How bout' if Jesus says "blessed is spiritualscientist".  Is spiritualscientist blessed because he's spiritualscientist or because Jesus said so?  

In their (the poor) eyes, they were poor.  They viewed themselves just like 5 of the seven spies who went in to spy out the land did.  They were, "grasshoppers in their own eyes."  But God saw them differently.

Jesus was telling them they were not poor, they were blessed.  You may look poor on the outside but your blessed.  The kingdom of God is yours!  That's pretty good news to the poor.

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by Quaffer
Me thinks you have found a loop-hole for being lazy and slack.

Jesus was not saying you're blessed because your poor.  How bout' if Jesus says "blessed is spiritualscientist".  Is spiritualscientist blessed because he's spiritualscientist or because Jesus said so?  

In their (the poor) eyes, they were poor.  They viewed themselves just like 5 of the seven spies who went in to spy out the land did.  They were, "grasshoppers in their own eyes."  But God saw them differently.

Jesus was telling them they were not poor, they were blessed.  You may look poor on the outside but your blessed.  The kingdom of God is yours!  That's pretty good news to the poor.

 

Take it easy.

 

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by spiritualscientist
Perfection is only attainable spiritually



It is two consecutive times so it is always as per the the two occassions.
Matthew and Luke are two different writers, you don't expect them to write exactly the same thing.

I didn't say there is a contradiction. I am saying one of them wrote an error. I am only trying to prove the bible is not error free, I am not looking for contradictions.

OK, so ya got me on the "always" issue.  I believe I said, "up front" it appears to be different setting".  But even after looking at it a little more, I don't see any errors.  And the reason I always, at least to this point, say it's a different setting is because it could be.  And I've expressed my reasoning on the other post.

One writer noting statements that the other writer does not or vice versa does not make an error.  Why do you view it as an error?

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Originally posted by spiritualscientist
 

Take it easy.

 

Sorry! The large writing is not meant to appear as screaming.  The next size down appeared to be too small so I made it only 1 size bigger and that's how it looks.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally posted by Quaffer
Sorry! The large writing is not meant to appear as screaming.  The next size down appeared to be too small so I made it only 1 size bigger and that's how it looks.

It makes it hard to read. Because there is so little text on the screen at one time. Maybe you need to adjust your computer. How many pixels do you have your screen set at? There are four different setting that you can set it at.

Mine is set at 800 X 600 pixels, because that is what most of the graphic software I use recommends. I do not know if that is the factory setting for windows or not. I can't remember if I changed that or not.

 

[Andrew]

Blackhawk,

From the long list of verses I gave you, I can see that at least you agree that there is nothing wrong in being a very rich Christian. I mean that is pretty much common sense cos there are a lot of very rich Christians around and the Bible does talk abt very rich men of faith such as Abraham, David, etc. I mean, if you cant even see that then you would have to be against millions of Christians for the simple fact that they drive nice cars and live in cool homes and eat good food.

Of course I agree that there is good prosperity and bad prosperity. And this is discussed quite extensively in the book of wisdom. What we want here is good prosperity not that we mgiht just sit on it and enjoy ourselves but that we might be a blessing to others in need. I mean if you could give a dollar to the homeless or build homes for them, which wld you rather be able to do?

The only area we cannot agree on is whether God wants all his children to prosper materially (in goods and finances). I have already shown you that this is in the New Covenant, so it makes no sense to say that God only wants some rich. It is the same as saying God only wants some saved and some healed.

I've shown you that in the OC, material wealth and goods were one of the many blessings of the Lord. That's clearly shown in Deu 28. Conversely, being poor is a curse. That's also clearly spelt out in Deu 28 (yet you can say God wants some to stay poor?).

You also say that that's God's covenant with Isreal and not us Christians today. Well, dont forget we are the seed of Abraham. We inherit the blessings of Abraham and even have a covenant based on better promises! So, if in the OC God promises material wealth and prosperity as one of the many blessings, how can the NC promise any less? And if it's in the covenant, how can you say that only some Chrisitians (in the covenant) are promised it?

Ga 3:9* So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Ga 3:29* And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I have also shown you verses which clearly says God wants us to prosper, but you simply 'spiritualise' these verses away or add conditions to it.

 

[LouisBooth]

"If you obey His teachings you will find that the Holy Spirit will guide you hence you don't need to memorize the bible or need a paster to understand spirituality. "

Yes, if you were perfect, which no one is, thus you do need to study it

"There is something (genes and environment) that makes one to be the way he/she is. "

This is not true. People are educated, but still choose to do wrong.

"I am not a follower of Paul but Christ. Although I believe his words had a high degree of truthfulness. "

So then you don't agree the bible is truth? If so then we have no basis on which to talk.

"degree of goodness in everyone. "

So you don't believe the bible at all!!

"Luke 6:20 Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God"

I think this more has a spiritual aspect as reflecting in matthew.

 

[spiritualscientist]

Originally posted by LouisBooth


Yes, if you were perfect, which no one is, thus you do need to study it

The Holy Spirit can guide you i.e everything is written in our hearts, thats why Jesus said the Kingdom of God is hidden to the learned. That is even an illiterature person can be taught about the Kingdom of God by the Holy spirit. You can have a PhD in Theology and still don't know the mysteries of the kingdom of God.

This is not true. People are educated, but still choose to do wrong.

Why people choose wrong is because they have not had a conducive environment(education) to know the right thing. I believe anyone can change.

 

So then you don't agree the bible is truth? If so then we have no basis on which to talk.

The bible has a high degree of truth, but since it was made by man it is not error free. I prefer discussing what Jesus taught because He covered everything we need to know about spirituality. No point in going to look what other people said because sometimes they contradict Christ to some degree.

So you don't believe the bible at all!!

I don't know why you have arrived at this conclusion. Just because there is a section in Genesis that I don't agree with does not mean I don't agree with the bible at all.

"Luke 6:20 Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God"

I think this more has a spiritual aspect as reflecting in matthew. [/B]

How would you have understood this scripture without refering to Matthew? Assume that Matthew did not write beatitudes, how would you have interpreted this scripture.

I believe each scripture is true with its own interpretation.

 

 

[LouisBooth]

"You can have a PhD in Theology and still don't know the mysteries of the kingdom of God. "

yup, THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE TO STUDY IT. Why do you think he said mediate on these words, he was refering to SCRIPTURE. Jesus memorzied scripture, why can't you?

"Why people choose wrong is because they have not had a conducive environment(education) to know the right thing. "

Nope, and that is a very gnostic though. Knowledge is not a saving grace, people are fully knowledgeable yet still do wrong. Please don't bring your platonism into christianity thanks

"No point in going to look what other people said because sometimes they contradict Christ to some degree. "

Okay, then I would say that its not the bible that you believe, but yourself. The bible is not a buffet to pick and choose what you like, sorry.

"Just because there is a section in Genesis that I don't agree with does not mean I don't agree with the bible at all. "

Yes, it does, and it also throws Hermineutics out the window.

"Assume that Matthew did not write beatitudes, how would you have interpreted this scripture. "

Who cares? He did so I do. The bible was ment to be read as a WHOLE book and understood in light of other scripture. so this point is quite irrelevant.

 

[SnuP]

Luke: 6
38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

This plainly shows the principle that God uses to make one rich that always gives away. God's economy is different from the worlds economy. He says if you give it away I will give even more to you.

What this means is if God gives you 100 give also back 100 so your total material wealth is 0. To God material wealth is nothing since you are only in this world for a short period of time and undergo a test. You can't be tested properly if you live in luxury.

Umm, running over does not mean the exact same, rather it means more.

Originally posted by SnuP
Luke 6:20 -
It is the same as Jesus saying that He was sent to preach the goodnews to the poor. Same meaning. It is because of their plite that Jesus is sent (one reason). The kingdom of God does not just mean heaven, unless you think that God's kingdom is limited to heaven. No rather we also are the kingdom of God. By inheiriting the Kingdom of God you inheirit fellowship. Fellowship with God and your brothers. You inherit the Body of Christ.

This is simply a common belief that has been passed on from generation to generation among saved Christians. It has no basis.

Why would Jesus only want the poor to hear the good news. Everyone needs to hear good news. The poor were willing to listen to Jesus preach since the rich are busy either looking for money or obsessed with other material wants. Hence it is easier for the pooor to humble themselves, forget the world and accept spirituality, since they have nothing to lose in the world.

That is interesting, I didn't get that idea from anyone. I arrived at the conclussion by my self. I guess that means that I must be listening to the Spirit of God.

Also I said nothing about the good news only being preached to the poor. If you read the rest of the gospels then you will see that Jesus says to preach the gospel to all men, and He says that the kingdom of God belongs to all that believe on Him.

Let me ask you a simple question. Do you believe that Jesus is God?