Knowing the "heart" (and mind maybe) of God...?

[Ron Gurley]

Natural heart of man is not godly .
See: Matthew 15

 

[Colter]

Old testament YHWH and New testament God the father is the same spiritual person

It’s the same person but presented in a more accurate way in the Son if God. The OT presentation of God is more of a shadow of the men who created the scripture books. The OT authors tended to apply human attributes to the divine personality, jealousy, anger, wrath, erratic behavior etc.

 

[st831]

Yes and No, Jesus said that we are His friends because we know His plans. If you read the bible you know the overall end and final result. He may give us a vision, but He also requires faith. That means there will always be unknowns that we must walk out in Faith. Romans 11:34 says we can't fathom his mind or His depths. Job said, "Who can know the mind of God." He may give us an overall direction, He may give us a small step, but He will not reveal it all, because He is growing our Faith.

 

[razzelflabben]

That's because YHWH or Jehovah God, (also translated Lord), was God the Son... The Father was with him and in him, but was not "at the helm" so to speak, at that time... For no one has ever seen or heard from the Father directly at any time, cause and/but only God the Son alone has... And all that we know of God is God the Son, and all that we can know about the Father only comes through God, the Son...

(John 1:18) (John 5:37) (1 John 4:12) (1 Timothy 6:16)...

God Bless!

I'll take some time to think and pray about this but I don't see what significance any of that has given that there is only ONE God can you fill me in on what the significance is in your mind.

 

[razzelflabben]

Who was at the "helm" (so to speak) of the Godhead in the OT...?

Was not all of Creation created through and by Christ Jesus with the Father God's authority and power, or not...? (Colossians 1:15-17)

And were made "for him", or not...?

God Bless!

I guess one of the areas I am having problems with in your assertion is that Gen. where it talks about creating, uses the plural usually understood as all the trinity combined not separated as you are trying to do here....so maybe more details as to what you think the significance is would be helpful.

 

[razzelflabben]

You guys really are making this way and much more complicated than it really needs to be you know...? (talk about muddying up the waters)... Sheesh...

It's not rocket science, and is certainly much easier to understand than rocket science...

God Bless!

I think I get what you are suggesting and I am not sure you are wrong but by the same token I am not sure you are right and what I think bothers me the most is that to see it this way seems to me to take away our understanding of God as ONE which is a huge concept throughout scripture and is vital to our understanding who God is and understanding His heart and mind. IOW's I am not sure that we can go down the road you want to go down with a clear understanding of God's heart and mind as put forth in scripture for none of the three can be separated from God. IN fact, as I understand it, the distinctions are to help man understand God not for man to use them to try to make God something He is not which is why I am asking you what the distinction here is all about in your mind.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'll take some time to think and pray about this but I don't see what significance any of that has given that there is only ONE God can you fill me in on what the significance is in your mind.

There is three persons in one container, and in the OT, the second one was at the helm...

 

[Neogaia777]

Old testament YHWH and New testament God the father is the same spiritual person

There are three persons in one container and in the OT, the second one was at the helm...

 

[Neogaia777]

In order for God the Father (being 100% fully omniscient) to show us his heart, and his feelings, he had to do it through one who was not entirely completely 100% fully omniscient, or God the Son, (As YHWH in the OT) otherwise it would not be possible...

 

[Neogaia777]

Come on guys, this is very simple...

For this do not focus on the third person of the triune one God, but only the first and second... The Holy Spirit, little can be known about him, at least, in comparison to what and all that can be known about the Father and the Son... and this is done on purpose I believe, for he is not seeking glory for himself, or (of) his own... but his "job" is to glorify and elevate the Father and the Son, and to redirect worship to him/them, and he does not want to, (nor would it proper for us to) worship him (the Holy Spirit) himself, nor does he even desire that, but the Father and the Son do...

Just know that he (H.S.) is "there" and was "always there" with the other two, and focus only on the Father and the Son for now, and giving them their proper place(s), in the Godhead...

Now the Father is greater than the Son, as Jesus himself says...

But, also that the Son was there in and from the very beginning, and proceed from there, OK...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Can you reconcile these scriptures: (John 10:29) (John 14:28)

And then this one: (Colossians 1:15-17)

With these: (John 1:18) (John 5:37) (1 John 4:12) (1 Timothy 6:16)

???

I can and do...

And it's very simple also...

Want to know...? It is everything I have been saying over and over in this thread...

And is key to knowing God's heart, which is the purpose of this thread, and we can get back to that, when you understand "this"...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Can you reconcile these scriptures: (John 10:29) (John 14:28)

And then this one: (Colossians 1:15-17)

With these: (John 1:18) (John 5:37) (1 John 4:12) (1 Timothy 6:16)

???

I can and do...

And it's very simple also...

Want to know...? It is everything I have been saying over and over in this thread...

And is key to knowing God's heart, which is the purpose of this thread, and we can get back to that, when you understand "this"...

God Bless!

The apostles and the early church knew and understood and were taught these things, so it is not like it's some kind of "new knowledge" or something...

Otherwise, they would not have wrote, nor been able to write, what they wrote or scriptures like i quoted...

But, it is "lost knowledge" or knowledge that somehow got lost along the way...

They understood this, now why can't you/we...?

They were all on the "same page" about this, now why can't you/we be...?

God Bless!

 

[razzelflabben]

There is three persons in one container, and in the OT, the second one was at the helm...

I would say that is how I have always understood it....but I still don't get the point you want to make

 

[razzelflabben]

In order for God the Father (being 100% fully omniscient) to show us his heart, and his feelings, he had to do it through one who was not entirely completely 100% fully omniscient, or God the Son, (As YHWH in the OT) otherwise it would not be possible...

I'm not sure I can go along with this...even the OT God that we see is the same nature, the same mind, the same heart as Christ. One is more...what shall we say...identifiable to man but the characteristics and nature and heart and mind are the same.

 

[razzelflabben]

Come on guys, this is very simple...

For this do not focus on the third person of the triune one God, but only the first and second... The Holy Spirit, little can be known about him, at least, in comparison to what and all that can be known about the Father and the Son... and this is done on purpose I believe, for he is not seeking glory for himself, or (of) his own... but his "job" is to glorify and elevate the Father and the Son, and to redirect worship to him/them, and he does not want to, (nor would it proper for us to) worship him (the Holy Spirit) himself, nor does he even desire that, but the Father and the Son do...

Just know that he (H.S.) is "there" and was "always there" with the other two, and focus only on the Father and the Son for now, and giving them their proper place(s), in the Godhead...

Now the Father is greater than the Son, as Jesus himself says...

But, also that the Son was there in and from the very beginning, and proceed from there, OK...?

God Bless!

I am pretty sure I get what you are saying but I still don't get the relevance of it...let me try to explain it another way.

In my studies one thing I studied was humility. Now most of the time if someone takes time to study humility it comes down to the humility of Christ which is btw phenomenal to put it mildly....but few people take the time to consider the humility of The Father who gave up His Son in the first place.

Now, where you are losing me is not in thinking about the Father and Son differently, I get that, what I don't get is that both in the example above are driven by humility. IOW's the heart and mind of both are humility so no difference. By looking at the FAther, then the Son, then the HS we can get a bit of a different window into the heart and mind of God but each gives us a window to look into in the first place. Just as we get a different window when we consider the Godhead alone. It's like looking into a house window by window and seeing the same house but from a different angle.

So help me understand what I am missing in your idea here.

 

[razzelflabben]

Can you reconcile these scriptures: (John 10:29) (John 14:28)

And then this one: (Colossians 1:15-17)

With these: (John 1:18) (John 5:37) (1 John 4:12) (1 Timothy 6:16)

???

I can and do...

And it's very simple also...

Want to know...? It is everything I have been saying over and over in this thread...

And is key to knowing God's heart, which is the purpose of this thread, and we can get back to that, when you understand "this"...

God Bless!

personally I don't see anything to reconcile so that might be hindering me from following your line of thinking....help me understand.

 

[razzelflabben]

The apostles and the early church knew and understood and were taught these things, so it is not like it's some kind of "new knowledge" or something...

Otherwise, they would not have wrote, nor been able to write, what they wrote or scriptures like i quoted...

But, it is "lost knowledge" or knowledge that somehow got lost along the way...

They understood this, now why can't you/we...?

They were all on the "same page" about this, now why can't you/we be...?

God Bless!

again, I have no clue what you think needs reconciled to figure out what I supposedly don't get.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm not sure I can go along with this...even the OT God that we see is the same nature, the same mind, the same heart as Christ.

And, can you really truly genuinely "see" that...?

Cause that actually is the point I am trying to make... That the God of the OT, and Christ have the same heart, and that is because they are the same person or the same one...

But, can you "really, truly see that" with great accuracy... Can you see that one is God's (but God the Son's) past, and that one is God's present and future...

And that YHWH is God the Son, and it was actually YHWH himself that was, and chose to have himself born, (in a woman) and as a man...

That there is absolutely no separation between YHWH or God in the OT, and Christ, that they are "one in the same person" that they are the same being...

There is no separation between YHWH and Jesus, and never was, cause they are the same person, and are God the Son (yet not the Father, not exactly anyway, not at that time) (but the Father was present in him) (God the Son)...

I am trying to get people to see that there is absolutely no separation of difference between YHWH and Christ, cause YHWH was actually Jesus in the past... (But not the Father specifically or exactly), (at least not at that time), (cause that happened later) (but the Father was always with him, and was always present in him)...

One is more...what shall we say...identifiable to man but the characteristics and nature and heart and mind are the same.

And again, can you really truly see that clearly and accurately...?

If so, how...?

I'm asking people not to think that God in and of the OT and Christ (YHWH and Christ) as "separate beings"... cause they are "not" at all...

God Bless!

 

[razzelflabben]

And, can you really truly genuinely "see" that...?

the Love nature of God? Yes...it's actually a very beautiful story if we understand it and gives us even more understanding of God's mind and heart. One of the greatest things we learn from the OT God about His nature/character is His eternal mindset over the fleshly one. IOW's everything that God did in the OT (or most of it anyway) was about the eternal not the immediate flesh...we see a different window into God in the Christ of the NT where there was more focus on the temporal that leads us to the eternal. IOW's two different ways to get to the same conclusion...eternal perspective through the temporal.

Cause that actually is the point I am trying to make... That the God of the OT, and Christ have the same heart, and that is because they are the same person or the same one...

amen...which is why I was confused a bit by what you were trying to say, cause I didn't get that from your posts...thanks for clarifying

But, can you "really, truly see that" with great accuracy... Can you see that one is God's (but God the Son's) past, and that one is God's present and future...

not sure what you mean by this...maybe, it depends on what you mean. Time is different for God than it is for us. My husband could tell you the names for the different views of time but I forget the names at the moment.

We have chronos (I think that is the name) which is the time as we understand it. IOW's sun, moon, stars help us to see time as a measurable thing then there is the other time (can't remember the name) in which time is a fluid thing, it just flows without any real measure. We see this in scripture where it says a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day....God functioned in the fluid time until creation in Gen. where He created the sun, moon, stars for us to measure time. He is able to function in both, I mean He is God but He is fluid time which makes it very difficult to understand how God can be past/present/future when those are man's terms and understanding without also understanding that God simply IS which is God's measure..why do you think He called Himself I AM in Exodus 3:14?

And that YHWH is God the Son, and it was actually YHWH himself that was, and chose to have himself born, (in a woman) and as a man...

That there is absolutely no separation between YHWH or God in the OT, and Christ, that they are "one in the same person" that they are the same being...

There is no separation between YHWH and Jesus, and never was, cause they are the same person, and are God the Son (yet not the Father, not exactly anyway, not at that time) (but the Father was present in him) (God the Son)...

I am trying to get people to see that there is absolutely no separation of difference between YHWH and Christ, cause YHWH was actually Jesus in the past... (But not the Father specifically or exactly), (at least not at that time), (cause that happened later) (but the Father was always with him, and was always present in him)...

I think some of us were trying to say that and it was getting missed.

And again, can you really truly see that clearly and accurately...?

I honestly don't know how to see it any other way.

If so, how...?

I'm asking people not to think that God in and of the OT and Christ (YHWH and Christ) as "separate beings"... cause they are "not" at all...

God Bless!

Not following your question again, how what? How can I see them as the same being? Cause they are....funny and sad story...when our son died, my husband, myself, and our pastor were all accused of killing our son because it was God's judgment on us for believing in the trinity, three that were one. God is One and only ONE there can be no mistake about that, but within that, God wanted to communicate with us some things that we could not understand unless He showed us through things we could understand like FAther, Son and HS

 

[Neogaia777]

the Love nature of God? Yes...it's actually a very beautiful story if we understand it and gives us even more understanding of God's mind and heart. One of the greatest things we learn from the OT God about His nature/character is His eternal mindset over the fleshly one. IOW's everything that God did in the OT (or most of it anyway) was about the eternal not the immediate flesh...we see a different window into God in the Christ of the NT where there was more focus on the temporal that leads us to the eternal. IOW's two different ways to get to the same conclusion...eternal perspective through the temporal. amen...which is why I was confused a bit by what you were trying to say, cause I didn't get that from your posts...thanks for clarifying not sure what you mean by this...maybe, it depends on what you mean. Time is different for God than it is for us. My husband could tell you the names for the different views of time but I forget the names at the moment.

We have chronos (I think that is the name) which is the time as we understand it. IOW's sun, moon, stars help us to see time as a measurable thing then there is the other time (can't remember the name) in which time is a fluid thing, it just flows without any real measure. We see this in scripture where it says a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day....God functioned in the fluid time until creation in Gen. where He created the sun, moon, stars for us to measure time. He is able to function in both, I mean He is God but He is fluid time which makes it very difficult to understand how God can be past/present/future when those are man's terms and understanding without also understanding that God simply IS which is God's measure..why do you think He called Himself I AM in Exodus 3:14? I think some of us were trying to say that and it was getting missed. I honestly don't know how to see it any other way. Not following your question again, how what? How can I see them as the same being? Cause they are....funny and sad story...when our son died, my husband, myself, and our pastor were all accused of killing our son because it was God's judgment on us for believing in the trinity, three that were one. God is One and only ONE there can be no mistake about that, but within that, God wanted to communicate with us some things that we could not understand unless He showed us through things we could understand like FAther, Son and HS

I've got to call it a night, so I'll have to get back to you, K...?

I at least, can't do long posts right now...

And I'm tired and exhausted and can barely keep my eyes open, so, I've got to call it a night, and I'll have to get back to you, K...?

God Bless!