Kind Advice Only: What do you do when Christians will not discuss Scripture with you?

[Bible Highlighter]

One of the reasons I participate in CF is to have discussions with Christians whose points of view are different from mine. It helps me remember (to borrow St Paul's metaphor) that the whole body is not an eye, that the body of Christ also has ears and noses and elbows and toes, and that I need to be aware of the variety that's in all the parts of the body.

When I encounter interpretations of Scripture that are different from mine:

1) I try to have some humility. Maybe the other person has an insight I haven't thought of.

2) I look again at my interpretation of the Scripture passages that I am relying on, to see if there are flaws in my reasoning.

3) I am once again made aware that the Bible contains a variety of points of view on some topics, as its different writers write from their different times and experiences, and also that applying the Bible to our present-day lives and cultures is not a simple, easy task. This is an uncomfortable fact, but a fact nevertheless.

I have considered my opponent's viewpoint on various verses before, and I have grown and learned in the process of discussion (even amongst great disagreement).

God has talked to my heart of when I am wrong on a particular verse. But it is not often. But have learned and grown over the many years in both my debates and discussions on various different Christian forums.

Anyways, thank you for the positive advice.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, it appears that the "note comparing" you stated you started this thread for has quickly devolved into nothing more than you telling people that their advice is wrong.

You didn't want advice in the first place. You wanted contention.

If you were to read all my replies to others, this is simply not so.
But you are free to disagree of course.
I just do not feel how you are contributing to the thread topic.
So far you are only criticizing and not giving any kind advice.
The thread topic is specifically about giving kind advice and not negative criticism.

In any event, may God's peace be upon you today (even if we disagree).

 

[Ken Rank]

So you see that praying for a person for their eyes to be opened as forcing a person to see the truth? You see my preaching the Scriptures with love to them for long periods of time as forcing them to see the truth?

I see forcing a person to see the truth as using violence or in being hostile towards them in some way. Force implies that you are using a violent or hostile means to persuade them. I am not sure how I am doing that in any way. I believe in praying for people to change their mind so as to see the truth, and I believe in preaching God's Word to people as long as it takes.

The Bible says:

"...you should earnestly contend for the faith " (Jude 1:3).

I am not sure how you interpret this verse, but for me, I see it as preaching God's Word with boldness to all for as long as it takes.

I cannot force anyone to believe, but I can contend for the faith by preaching God's Word for my Lord Jesus Christ and I can pray for them.

I didn't say anything about praying for a person. Good gosh... of course you pray. You mentioned them READING SCRIPTURE... and that you can't force them to do. Why do yo waste time like this?

 

[GingerBeer]

I am not looking for negative criticism but friendly Christian advice.

But may God bless you.

It is friendly advice. Let the discussion take its natural course and listen more than you "speak". That's advice from God in the Proverbs.

 

[bekkilyn]

Not sure if you're "guilty" of this or not, but some people on here post something like 50+ scripture verses in their posts and have this unreasonable expectation that someone is going to go through all of them with line by line, and then of course on the rare occasions someone does fall for it, they basically get back a response of "nuh uh, you're wrong." And then are back to claiming that no one discusses scripture with them.

So *if* you are doing anything similar, then initiate a more "bite-sized" discussion on one or two points of scripture and then having a discussion about *that* and see where it goes vs. an expectation for people to post a 100 page response only to have it rejected in one or two sentences.

Again, not sure if this is how you have been operating, but simply has been my experience with some others who make the claim that no one discusses scripture with them.

 

[Endeavourer]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I find when people quote Scripture at others they are usually trying to educate the other person and they have a closed mind to considering whether their filter or application of the Scripture is less absolute than they are insisting it is.

I went through a time when I realized certain filters I carried were distorting what I had previously thought were the "plain, clear and obvious" instructions in Scripture. After that, I became averse to anyone trying to scold or educate me with the words "Biblical" or "clearly Biblical" etc etc. Often I can see that their "Biblical" point is not correct but they just want to educate you on why you should suffer along with their Phariseeism (harsh interpretations). They don't want a bi-directional conversation at all.

When someone starts throwing Scripture at me, I generally just leave them over to it. Sometimes if I sense they are open to a give and take conversation I'll engage but it almost always turns out it was only a show and they just want to educate the other person with no curiosity or flexibility at all in their own position.

 

[His student]

IMPORTANT NOTE: ​

Please no criticisms or negative comments towards me. ........................

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you found it necessary to start the thread this way.

Take a look at some of the comments about you and your style and the various "likes", "agrees", and "winners" tacked on below. Perhaps you could start with post number 9 and then look at a few more like that throughout the pages of the thread after that.

That should tell you a great deal about why people won't "discuss" scripture with you.

As I look through the threads started by you, I see the majority are in the "controversial doctrine" section. Many of the ones which are not are also on topics almost guaranteed to bring out argumentation. Why do you suppose that is?

The scriptures tell us to avoid those within the body who seek to purposefully cause division among us.

It is quite likely that those who refrain from discussing scripture with you are merely heeding the advice of God.

You tell us that you already know what you would do in those circumstances where people won't discuss the scriptures with you. Try adding "repent" to the list of things you would do.

I am taking a page from your book and telling you the truth in love.

My response is to strive to be patient with them and tell them the truth in love.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I find when people quote Scripture at others they are usually trying to educate the other person and they have a closed mind to considering whether their filter or application of the Scripture is less absolute than they are insisting it is.

I went through a time when I realized certain filters I carried were distorting what I had previously thought were the "plain, clear and obvious" instructions in Scripture. After that, I became averse to anyone trying to scold or educate me with the words "Biblical" or "clearly Biblical" etc etc. Often I can see that their "Biblical" point is not correct but they just want to educate you on why you should suffer along with their Phariseeism (harsh interpretations). They don't want a bi-directional conversation at all.

When someone starts throwing Scripture at me, I generally just leave them over to it. Sometimes if I sense they are open to a give and take conversation I'll engage but it almost always turns out it was only a show and they just want to educate the other person with no curiosity or flexibility at all in their own position.

Scripture should be our delight and food. It should not be burdensome to read but it should be a joy. When we see a wall of text, it should encourage us to roll back our sleeves and dig in and study. Maybe they are right, and maybe they are wrong. But we should look at the verses a person presents because maybe we will learn something even if it is not exactly the belief of what they are trying to sell us on. Maybe some people have a hard time reading the Bible, and or they are a new Christian, and so they feel intimidated by all that Scripture. So they go into lockdown mode and do not reply to what the verses say and they blindly hold to what they were taught by their Pastor (Seeing he has the degree, the big building, and he is well respected, etc.). But man shall not live by bread alone. We should as believers seek God's Word as if it is food. So a wall of text every now and then should not make any believer recoil or ignore it. God's Word is our delight and it is a light unto our path.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Not sure if you're "guilty" of this or not, but some people on here post something like 50+ scripture verses in their posts and have this unreasonable expectation that someone is going to go through all of them with line by line, and then of course on the rare occasions someone does fall for it, they basically get back a response of "nuh uh, you're wrong." And then are back to claiming that no one discusses scripture with them.

So *if* you are doing anything similar, then initiate a more "bite-sized" discussion on one or two points of scripture and then having a discussion about *that* and see where it goes vs. an expectation for people to post a 100 page response only to have it rejected in one or two sentences.

Again, not sure if this is how you have been operating, but simply has been my experience with some others who make the claim that no one discusses scripture with them.

The length of posts should not be the issue of the problem here at all. It takes hard work to gather Scripture correctly to defend a particular belief. Some may gather verses to defend an imaginary belief wrongfully, and others gather verses for a true belief in the Bible correctly. The information itself is not wrong. It is merely truth. Truth should never be our enemy.

For in your view, what is the alternative? Should we hide the truth? Give them just a taste of the truth of God's Word because people do not like the whole truth? If so, then I disagree. Yes, there are people who wrongfully post a long set of verses and they do not hold to the same standard of replying fairly in return if they are also faced with a long wall of text, too.

That does not mean we should not take a stand for what is true and right and preach the entirety of God's Word (just because some are not doing it right). I would rather have someone have the whole truth than only a small amount of it. If someone is having trouble in receiving my larger collection of verses, I do try to accommodate them by giving it to them in bite size pieces.

In any event, whether you agree or disagree, may God's love shine upon you today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Perhaps you should ask yourself why you found it necessary to start the thread this way.

Take a look at some of the comments about you and your style and the various "likes", "agrees", and "winners" tacked on below. Perhaps you could start with post number 9 and then look at a few more like that throughout the pages of the thread after that.

That should tell you a great deal about why people won't "discuss" scripture with you.

As I look through the threads started by you, I see the majority are in the "controversial doctrine" section. Many of the ones which are not are also on topics almost guaranteed to bring out argumentation. Why do you suppose that is?

The scriptures tell us to avoid those within the body who seek to purposefully cause division among us.

It is quite likely that those who refrain from discussing scripture with you are merely heeding the advice of God.

You tell us that you already know what you would do in those circumstances where people won't discuss the scriptures with you. Try adding "repent" to the list of things you would do.

I am taking a page from your book and telling you the truth in love.

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that finds it. The popular and accepted belief does not mean it is always the right one. But thank you for the negative criticism (Which was against my expressed wishes).
I will certainly rejoice in God my Savior as a result of it.

Peace be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is friendly advice. Let the discussion take its natural course and listen more than you "speak". That's advice from God in the Proverbs.

No. It's blind negative criticism (Which is against my expressed wishes of this thread).

You said, I quote:

"You learn the lesson and stop trying or expecting Christians to dance to your tune. Sometimes it is not the scripture that puts a person off it is the way the other person in the discussion discusses it. It's easy to become a bore with a bible." ~ GingerBeer.​

Okay, the first part you said that it is wrong for me to expect Christians to dance to my tune as if I am teaching something that is contrary to what God's Word says. This is not friendly advice, but it is criticism. There is only one teaching in the Bible, and we as believer are told to preach the Word. In the second part of what you said, you implied that I am a bore with a Bible. This again is negative criticism and not friendly Christian advice.

Trust has to first be earned by another before one can offer criticism in love. I did not ask for your criticism. I asked for kind advice.

 

[bekkilyn]

The length of posts should not be the issue of the problem here at all. It takes hard work to gather Scripture correctly to defend a particular belief. Some may gather verses to defend an imaginary belief wrongfully, and others gather verses for a true belief in the Bible correctly. The information itself is not wrong. It is merely truth. Truth should never be our enemy.

For in your view, what is the alternative? Should we hide the truth? Give them just a taste of the truth of God's Word because people do not like the whole truth? If so, then I disagree. Yes, there are people who wrongfully post a long set of verses and they do not hold to the same standard of replying fairly in return if they are also faced with a long wall of text, too.

That does not mean we should not take a stand for what is true and right and preach the entirety of God's Word (just because some are not doing it right). I would rather have someone have the whole truth than only a small amount of it. If someone is having trouble in receiving my larger collection of verses, I do try to accommodate them by giving it to them in bite size pieces.

In any event, whether you agree or disagree, may God's love shine upon you today.

You provide your points to people in much smaller, more manageable chunks. It's the same reason why a schools aren't set up for students to sit in a math class (or any other class) for eight hours straight. Look at how Khan Academy on the internet presents videos. Rather than having an 8 hour long video, the videos last about 10 minutes at a time and focus on one type of problem so that students do not become overwhelmed and give up.

Plus, you are having a potential discussion with people on the internet. You are lucky to get 5 or 10 minutes of people's time, so if you want to make a point, you need to make it during the time most people are willing to give to it as they are going to tune out after that time, if not before.

Just because you believe they *should* be behaving differently and responding differently doesn't turn it into reality. You asked the question as to why you weren't getting the responses you hoped to be getting and you've been provided with answers. So either you can change the way you are presenting your posts and perhaps get a change in how people react to them, or you can keep going as you are going now and get the same responses you have been getting. It's really as simple as that.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You provide your points to people in much smaller, more manageable chunks. It's the same reason why a schools aren't set up for students to sit in a math class (or any other class) for eight hours straight. Look at how Khan Academy on the internet presents videos. Rather than having an 8 hour long video, the videos last about 10 minutes at a time and focus on one type of problem so that students do not become overwhelmed and give up.

Plus, you are having a potential discussion with people on the internet. You are lucky to get 5 or 10 minutes of people's time, so if you want to make a point, you need to make it during the time most people are willing to give to it as they are going to tune out after that time, if not before.

Just because you believe they *should* be behaving differently and responding differently doesn't turn it into reality. You asked the question as to why you weren't getting the responses you hoped to be getting and you've been provided with answers. So either you can change the way you are presenting your posts and perhaps get a change in how people react to them, or you can keep going as you are going now and get the same responses you have been getting. It's really as simple as that.

But students have a large book of the information that they are to study. They may take the each day in study in bite size pieces, but they also have a large book of information at their disposal and they can simply read the book, too. Most of the time, people have a hard time studying educational things. But if a person is a Christian and they were transformed by our Lord, the Word of God should not be a chore to study, but a delight. I mean, I get it. You are offering advice. I do appreciate it. But what about the truth? Should we hide the truth to those in whom I have helped with my providing a long set of verses? Perhaps there is a balanced approach to what I propose and what you propose.

 

[GingerBeer]

No. It's blind negative criticism (Which is against my expressed wishes of this thread).

You said, I quote:

"You learn the lesson and stop trying or expecting Christians to dance to your tune. Sometimes it is not the scripture that puts a person off it is the way the other person in the discussion discusses it. It's easy to become a bore with a bible." ~ GingerBeer.​

Okay, the first part you said that it is wrong for me to expect Christians to dance to my tune as if I am teaching something that is contrary to what God's Word says.

What I wrote is in the quote and it does not say that you are teaching something contrary to scripture. It says that presenting views that are either expressed too forcefully or too persistently leads to the other people in a conversation losing their desire to continue the discussion.

This is not friendly advice, but it is criticism. There is only one teaching in the Bible, and we as believer are told to preach the Word. In the second part of what you said, you implied that I am a bore with a Bible.

The advice I've given is to listen more than you speak and to let the conversation follow its natural course. It is advice you will find in Proverbs.

This again is negative criticism and not friendly Christian advice.

Trust has to first be earned by another before one can offer criticism in love. I did not ask for your criticism. I asked for kind advice.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It says that presenting views that are either expressed too forcefully or too persistently leads to the other people in a conversation losing their desire to continue the discussion.

This is not in conflict with Scripture. Jude 1:3 says we are to earnestly contend for the faith. The faith is God's Word. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.

The advice I've given is to listen more than you speak and to let the conversation follow its natural course. It is advice you will find in Proverbs.

But who are we listening to? Men? Or God? We are also told to avoid evil communication in Scripture. So listening has to have a filter for that which is good. Also, suggesting that I need to listen as per using Scripture does not undo the negative criticism attached to it. I updated the thread that I would desire kind advice and not with any kind of criticism (because I was receiving a lot of unwanted negative unhelpful comments).

 

[GingerBeer]

This is not in conflict with Scripture. Jude 1:3 says we are to earnestly contend for the faith. The faith is God's Word. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.



But who are we listening to? Men? Or God? We are also told to avoid evil communication in Scripture. So listening has to have a filter for that which is good. Also, suggesting that I need to listen as per using Scripture does not undo the negative criticism attached to it. I updated the thread that I would desire kind advice and not with any kind of criticism (because I was receiving a lot of unwanted negative unhelpful comments).

If you want to earnestly contend for whatever it is you think ought to be contended for and if you are concerned that people listen to God rather than men then isn't the advice from Proverbs appropriate? James wrote: Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:19-21)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you want to earnestly contend for whatever it is you think ought to be contended for and if you are concerned that people listen to God rather than men then isn't the advice from Proverbs appropriate? James wrote: Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God. Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. (James 1:19-21)

There you go again with the negative criticism (that is against my expressed wishes within this thread). Are you listening to me? By your posting of the passage, you are claiming this applies to me. If so, you assume I am angry, and yet I have not shown to be angry on the forums towards any particular people. I believe the Bible teaches that we are to hate the sin and love the sinner. You also assume that I am not quick to hear and slow to speak. There are times, I may have missed what folks have said (but it is not often). In fact, I did just read your post and I did carefully consider what I was about to say to make sure it is in love and respect. It is good to listen. Have you been reading what I have said to others here?

 

[Endeavourer]

Scripture should be our delight and food. It should not be burdensome to read but it should be a joy. When we see a wall of text, it should encourage us to roll back our sleeves and dig in and study. Maybe they are right, and maybe they are wrong. But we should look at the verses a person presents because maybe we will learn something even if it is not exactly the belief of what they are trying to sell us on.

This bears out my post. If someone is trying to "should" me and educate me, I'm not interested in engaging because it is usually a one sided barrage coming my way. The person is trying to impose all of his/her "shoulds" and Pharaseeisms on me. I enjoy fellowshipping but I don't enjoy debating with someone who is just trying to prove himself right and me wrong.

Maybe some people have a hard time reading the Bible, and or they are a new Christian, and so they feel intimidated by all that Scripture. So they go into lockdown mode and do not reply to what the verses say and they blindly hold to what they were taught by their Pastor (Seeing he has the degree, the big building, and he is well respected, etc.). But man shall not live by bread alone. We should as believers seek God's Word as if it is food. So a wall of text every now and then should not make any believer recoil or ignore it. God's Word is our delight and it is a light unto our path.

As a person receiving this post, it feels like a rush to judgement with assumptions as to why I don't want to engage in a wall of text and assuming I don't find God's Word a delight. This is another reason why I don't engage in someone with wall of Scriptures. To me it indicates they are wise in their own eyes and assume everyone else has nothing to add to the conversation.

I don't want to engage if someone feels they have the answers and are just trying to educate everyone else. I don't feel intimidated, or lack desire to search Scripture, I just have a lack of desire to be barraged by someone else's "clear (un)Biblical" Pharaseeisms. I feel that God will lead their heart and lift their filters in his time. James talks about every person being brought along to a more mature understanding in different issues in different timing than the others. Someone may be far more evolved in their understanding of God's truth in one area and another in another area. So I leave it to God to work what He wants each person to know in his own timing if they are not in a frame of mind to interact (in a bidirectional and open way) with others. I don't have time or inclination to kick my foot against the pricks with someone who already knows everything.

My response may not be describing you. I haven't been on CF for quite a while, so I haven't followed your posts at all for quite a while. You seem familiar to me but I can't remember the context of it. So this is a generic answer to the question you posed about why people might not want to engage with a wall of text and is not directed towards you personally.

 

[bekkilyn]

But students have a large book of the information that they are to study. They may take the each day in study in bite size pieces, but they also have a large book of information at their disposal and they can simply read the book, too. Most of the time, people have a hard time studying educational things. But if a person is a Christian and they were transformed by our Lord, the Word of God should not be a chore to study, but a delight. I mean, I get it. You are offering advice. I do appreciate it. But what about the truth? Should we hide the truth to those in whom I have helped with my providing a long set of verses? Perhaps there is a balanced approach to what I propose and what you propose.

Yes, students may have a large book to study, but how many people on the internet are going to treat one of your posts like a large book that they are willing to study? It would seem not many, so if you really wish to reach people through the internet vs. an actual book, you may need to change your approach.
Books are a VASTLY different medium than an internet forum.

 

[Endeavourer]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I find when people quote Scripture at others they are usually trying to educate the other person and they have a closed mind to considering whether their filter or application of the Scripture is less absolute than they are insisting it is.

I went through a time when I realized certain filters I carried were distorting what I had previously thought were the "plain, clear and obvious" instructions in Scripture. After that, I became averse to anyone trying to scold or educate me with the words "Biblical" or "clearly Biblical" etc etc. Often I can see that their "Biblical" point is not correct but they just want to educate you on why you should suffer along with their Phariseeism (harsh interpretations). They don't want a bi-directional conversation at all.

When someone starts throwing Scripture at me, I generally just leave them over to it. Sometimes if I sense they are open to a give and take conversation I'll engage but it almost always turns out it was only a show and they just want to educate the other person with no curiosity or flexibility at all in their own position.

I didn't feel your answer to me addressed my points in this ^^ post at all. That's another reason I don't engage usually (making this one exception). Because I take time to make a response and the other person just stays on their path without discussing my points. Instead you "should"-ed me and implied that I didn't take delight in God's word.... you did not budge at all from your one track to actually engage in the points I brought up.

You asked for honest answers. My comment means nothing personal against you. You seemed to be truly wondering how to better engage with people so I'm just giving you my feedback.

I admire your zeal and your desire to reach out to others.