Kind Advice Only: What do you do when Christians will not discuss Scripture with you?

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Maria Billingsley

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IMPORTANT NOTE:

Please no criticisms or negative comments towards me.
I am looking for friendly Christian advice as a part of how you would personally respond in this situation. I am already aware of how I would handle this question personally. I am merely seeking to see if you would give a similar answer. May God bless you.​


On my many discussions over the years on various different Christian forums, I have discovered that many do not actual discuss or explain all of the verses or portions of Scripture that I bring forth. Instead, some of them will quote their select pet verses from an a-skewed point of view or they go on some kind of strange discussion that is not even found in the Scriptures.

What do you do when Christians will not discuss Scripture with you?
Many are still on milk and have no idea what Christian Theology really entails. I am not so sure it is of utmost importance however, because of biblical illiteracy, many fall into false doctrines of men. That being said, some just want to live with minimal information about our Lord and others thirst for His Word daily. Two sides of one Body. Best to have patience. Blessings
 
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Mountainmike

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I think you miss the main point I was making.

You criticised those "who do not respond with scripture in return"
Is based on a apriori assumption in your place - which you echo elsewhere "only scripture has authority" or similar. The premise that christian dialogue on doctrine can only occur with refernece to scripture.

Yet - scripture does not say it. History does not imply it. Logic easily disproves it ( ie scripture alone)-
so the point I make is that assumption of yours did not come from a vaccuum, and it is not a deduction you can have made from scripture. You carry it in as an assumption - your tradition - which is the faith handed down to you. And you view christianity through those glasses.

Other major conclusions I draw (from even your position as a non denom) are that you do not consider the (physical) church or succession clergy have a role in valid sacrament, indeed you possibly contest sacraments, and are certaintly at odds with the first christians.

Again you did not get from a vaccuum, or from scripture. It was handed down to you.

It isnt a criticism. You are aproduct of your experience and those who passed on to you. But you need to recognise you too view christianity through a lens of your tradition (ie doctrine handed to you) So you view scripture through that lens. And htat is what leads to your question "why do they not answer in scripture"

Where from a background of studying early church, apostolic succession and so - my lens - ..I answer "why should they?".

And at very least I urge you to study the reason you and I are right angles on this.
You will see your version of christianity is very much at odds with the early church




I gave a reply to what you said as a courtesy in responding. But the thread topic is not about this, my friend. I am interested in friendly Christian advise on how to respond to those who do not reply with Scripture in return.

May God bless you (even if we disagree on those other matters).
 
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This bears out my post. If someone is trying to "should" me and educate me, I'm not interested in engaging because it is usually a one sided barrage coming my way. The person is trying to impose all of his/her "shoulds" and Pharaseeisms on me. I enjoy fellowshipping but I don't enjoy debating with someone who is just trying to prove himself right and me wrong.



As a person receiving this post, it feels like a rush to judgement with assumptions as to why I don't want to engage in a wall of text and assuming I don't find God's Word a delight. This is another reason why I don't engage in someone with wall of Scriptures. To me it indicates they are wise in their own eyes and assume everyone else has nothing to add to the conversation.

I don't want to engage if someone feels they have the answers and are just trying to educate everyone else. I don't feel intimidated, or lack desire to search Scripture, I just have a lack of desire to be barraged by someone else's "clear (un)Biblical" Pharaseeisms. I feel that God will lead their heart and lift their filters in his time. James talks about every person being brought along to a more mature understanding in different issues in different timing than the others. Someone may be far more evolved in their understanding of God's truth in one area and another in another area. So I leave it to God to work what He wants each person to know in his own timing if they are not in a frame of mind to interact (in a bidirectional and open way) with others. I don't have time or inclination to kick my foot against the pricks with someone who already knows everything.

My response may not be describing you. I haven't been on CF for quite a while, so I haven't followed your posts at all for quite a while. You seem familiar to me but I can't remember the context of it. So this is a generic answer to the question you posed about why people might not want to engage with a wall of text and is not directed towards you personally.

I don't have time at the moment to give a complete reply, but for your information, I have helped people when giving them a large list of verses. Surely not everyone learns this way, and when I recognize this, I try to give the information in the Bible in smaller bite size pieces so as to accommodate them.

As for me being familiar:

Under the same username (i.e. Jason0047), I have posted on Theology Online, Yahoo Answers, ChristianChat, and briefly at Bibleforums.org.
 
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I think you miss the main point I was making.

You criticised those "who do not respond with scripture in return"
Is based on a apriori assumption in your place - which you echo elsewhere "only scripture has authority" or similar.

Yet - scripture does not say it. History does not imply it. Logic easily disproves it - so the point I make is that did not come from a vaccuum, or a deduction you made from scripture. You carry it in as an assumption - your tradition - ie the faith handed down to you.

Others are clearly that you do not consider the church or succession cleargy have a role in valid sacrament, indeed you possibly contest sacraments, and are certaintly at odds with the first christians. Indeed that you did not get from a vaccuum, or from scripture. It was handed down to you.

It isnt a criticism. You are aproduct of your experience and those who passed on to you. So you view scripture through that lens. And htat is what leads to your question "why do they not answer in scripture"

Where from a background of studying early church, apostolic succession and so on...I answer "why should they?".

And at very least I urge you to study the reason you and I are right angles on this.

Yes, I am a product of my experience that would be from God and His Word. God changes my life by His Word.
 
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Many are still on milk and have no idea what Christian Theology really entails. I am not so sure it is of utmost importance however, because of biblical illiteracy, many fall into false doctrines of men. That being said, some just want to live with minimal information about our Lord and others thirst for His Word daily. Two sides of one Body. Best to have patience. Blessings

Thank you, Maria for the kind advice and encouragement.

Blessings to you greatly in the Lord today.
 
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Mountainmike

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Yes, I am a product of my experience that would be from God and His Word. God changes my life by His Word.
Which as a generaly point we can all agree.
But a level deeper you should consider why all do not answer necessarily using scripture. And part of that is a lens of your tradition (that is doctrine handed to you)

Anyway..we all have choices. Study of the early church , led me away from anglican, then evangelical (bible alone - your kind of world) to where I now am. So I now ask..what did John the apostle think it meant? and what did he hand down... I can answer using early church fathers.
 
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Yes, students may have a large book to study, but how many people on the internet are going to treat one of your posts like a large book that they are willing to study? It would seem not many, so if you really wish to reach people through the internet vs. an actual book, you may need to change your approach.
Books are a VASTLY different medium than an internet forum.

Again, should I filter the truth because it is incompatible to many? I feel like that would be like hiding the truth. I also do cater to specific people the Bible verses in smaller bite sized pieces, as well (Especially if they do not respond to my larger list).
 
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Which as a generaly point we can all agree.
But a level deeper you should consider why all do not answer necessarily using scripture. And part of that is a lens of your tradition (that is doctrine handed to you)

Anyway..we all have choices. Study of the early church , led me away from anglican, then evangelical (bible alone - your kind of world) to where I now am. So I now ask..what did John the apostle think it meant? and what did he hand down... I can answer using early church fathers.

No. The bulk of my learning was through study. See 2 Timothy 2:15. It says,

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
 
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aiki

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If walls of text (on occasion) are wrong, then we would not have a Bible.

??? I was talking about walls of text in a discussion thread, not the Bible. I did not say walls of text in any and every circumstance were wrong.

Paul wrote lengthy letters to the churches that they had to read. The Bereans were more noble because they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not. Man shall not live by bread alone, but every word of God.

You make these tangential replies a lot. What you've written here doesn't apply to my comments to you about "Throwing the Elephant." Paul was not writing in a discussion thread online; the Bereans weren't, either; and man not living by bread alone has nothing at all to do with posting style in discussion threads.

If someone is truly into Scripture, and they seek to internalize it, they will not set aside Scripture as it means nothing to them, but they will seek to at least explain a few of the verses in a proposed large list (Because they love God's Word and they want others to know the truth of it).

And here again you speak to a point I never made. I did not say that someone reading your posts ought to "set aside Scripture as though it means nothing to them." I said only that wall 'o text posts often produce in other posters a disinterest in replying. Whether that is good or not I did not address in my comments. That they don't consider every verse you post and reply to each of them does not mean they don't love God's word. That is a glaring non sequitur. There are any number of other possible reasons why they don't engage you. I've already mentioned some of them in an earlier post.

Sometimes I do take parts of Scripture from my large list of verses and try to discuss them with others in regards to certain topics (because it may seem overwhelming to some), but the verse or two sometimes still goes unaddressed or they throw down the original languages card and say that the English words are in error.

And why is resorting to the original meaning in the language in which the text of the New Testament was written a faulty strategy for getting at the meaning of a word, verse, or passage? It is a basic, widespread and often very useful hermeneutic when studying Scripture.

Others will attempt to use the metaphor card to undo what God's Word says.

It does not follow that because people reject your interpretation of God's word that they are therefore "undoing" the meaning of Scripture. It could be that they understand Scripture better than you do; it could be you are actually mistaken in your understanding; it could be you are both awry in what you think Scripture is saying. And so on.

In regards to my question of this thread: Others have offered some interesting suggestions, but the one that is the best is praying for the individual so that they may see. That is my original answer to my own question within the OP.

Oh, I see. You weren't really looking for advice; you were just creating an opportunity to tell us what you think.

Not to be unkind, but it seems very obvious that one should be covering what they share in the various forums on this thread with prayer. Really, that goes without saying, as far as I'm concerned.

In any event, may God bless you.

And you, as well.

But truth of God's Word should not be hidden just because people do not like to read lots of Scripture.

What you think is plainly evident in the reams of Scripture you post often is not. And it is very tedious and time-consuming to have to go through fifteen, twenty, or thirty verses to point this out. The issue, then, isn't just that people don't like to read Scripture but that they don't like having to wade through verse after verse that has been wrongly applied to a point you've made.
 
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Endeavourer

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I don't have time at the moment to give a complete reply,

But yet Jason, you had time to answer a bunch of posts after this. It seems you are dodging addressing my contributions so you can stay focused on your track of educating others and not actually join into a mutual (bi-directional) discussion.

but for your information, I have helped people when giving them a large list of verses. Surely not everyone learns this way, and when I recognize this, I try to give the information in the Bible in smaller bite size pieces so as to accommodate them.

Also this speaks back to my original point. Are you willing to learn from others? Are you willing to engage in mutually respectfully, fully bi-directional fellowship? I've spent my time posting the insights (that you asked for) and you haven't addressed any of it, nor actually engaged in a discussion. You've just stayed on your tangent of how YOU should educate me.

As the saying goes, sometimes it's good to pull the cotton from one's ears and put it in one's mouth.

Edited to add: If I sense the person has cotton in their ears (as often a wall of 'educating-thee' text suggests), I just move on. I'm not interested in being run over by someone else's freight train. This may not be you, but my experience with such types is they are bursting with pride and I just don't have time to spend interacting with a proud person with cotton in their ears that wants to "should" me into their Pharaseeisms and whatever doctrine they're preaching that has led them to their pride. Now, that might not be you. I'm not saying it is. But often a wall of "preaching" to educate people in a forum is a pretty good indicator of such.
 
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A_Thinker

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I am autistic. My tone is often (unintentionally) mistaken for unfriendly, and my presentation, black & white.

I just know, from experience, that God is more dynamic than my limited understanding of the Truth. If the other person doesn't receive it, now, God can bring it back to them when they are ready to hear it (even for this dialogue). Sometimes it feels like an affront when that happens.

Either way, I will have spoken according to the Spirit.

"Faithful are the wounds of a friend;
but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful." Proverbs 27:6 KJV
You're doing great, guy. A testament to Christendom ...
 
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bekkilyn

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Again, should I filter the truth because it is incompatible to many? I feel like that would be like hiding the truth. I also do cater to specific people the Bible verses in smaller bite sized pieces, as well (Especially if they do not respond to my larger list).

Think of it this way then. Even Jesus used bite-sized pieces when he spoke his wisdom and teachings to others, depending on the context of where he was having the conversation. Certainly, there were times when he made a day of it, but there were many times when he used the "less is more" approach and just spoke a parable. You couldn't accuse Jesus himself of hiding the truth right?

You have to meet people where they are. Just because you teach people how to do a very simple integration problem of only one type rather than handing them all of calculus at once doesn't mean you are teaching them falsely.

And still, remember that the reason you asked your question in the first place is because you were unhappy with the way people were responding to your posts. While you can't force others to respond in the way you believe they should respond, you *do* have the power and ability to change things on your end and try different things for a better result.
 
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RickardoHolmes

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Jason,
Great observations and valid questions.

I am notvsure if I have the answers, but here are a few thoughts

First, most people, as I can tell, have not read the Bible, at least all of it. Many have admitted so much in person to me. And that is understndable, it is over 1000 pages long, would take too much time to read, and sadly, is poorly written, at least compared to modern texts.
Some will not discuss it because perhaps they have not read it.
I could not sit down with you and discuss 50 shades of gray because I have not read it, and only know of it based on what other people have said about it, based on their interpretation of it

Which brings to my second point. It is up for interpretation, and aboutbevery interpretation that can exist, does exist, from pure myth to sola scriptura and everything in between. So some will not discuss it because they do not want to get into a discussion of what it means to them in the face of percieved hostility.

Many do not understand the origins of it. No, it did not fall out of the sky. It was assembled over centuries, by human hands and with human agendas. This can confluct as well.

Finally, and no hate towards me, some of us see it as scripture, in part at least, but not as "Gods word" I HAVE read it from start to finish, and personally I do not like it that much. There are newer and more enlightening books around, though some reference the Bible, and certainly many which are better written. But it does remain an excellent source of reference for what first century Christians believed, or were told to believe.

For myself, scripture is only a small part of the Experience of Christ. There is Reason, Tradition and most important of all, Experience, not of what happened 2000 to 4000 years ago but Christ amongnus now, in our lives today. That is far more exciting and enlightening that reading of someone else's experiences in a book.
 
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Mountainmike

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I don't agree.

For example: You started with an assumption which issola scriptura. It is neither historical,nor logical nor scriptural, so you did not get it from scripture itself,
So you adopted it from somebody as an a priori premise, And that skews your view of everything else.

Analyse it. Why do you assume it? in clear conflict with early church?
Who was it told you that. Which group? By what authority was the clear decision of councils inspired - without which you have no New Testament, And by what authority were earlier canons and heresies rejected? Provable in the early church.

You even modify the bible to make it say what you would prefer it said in John 20:23 from "forgive" or "remit" - a transitive action of forgiving ( same original word as loose in bind and loose) you modify it to an observation " declare as still remaining" which no accepted translation does.
FYI luther tried to edit bits of the bible he didn't like too, and the jehovas witnesses version is seriously modified,

You have imposed that meaning from tradition ( in this case a false and recent one) -somebody gave you that. It is not a logical consequence.

As I said - you view scripture through a lens of assumption and tradition.
You got it from somewhere.

Now Try viewing instead through a lens of what the early fathers said it meant, particularly those who chose your canon and creed and before it .and by what authority they said it, Then you will be consistent with early Christianity, not the post reformationist views you clearly hold. You will also discover how the first church actually handed doctrine down, ( paradosis, tradition )

At very least you will have an interesting journey.
I can lead a horse to water, I cannot make it drink,


No. The bulk of my learning was through study. See 2 Timothy 2:15. It says,

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
No. The bulk of my learning was through study. See 2 Timothy 2:15. It says,

“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”
 
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But yet Jason, you had time to answer a bunch of posts after this.

No. It was not a bunch of posts. It was only 4 quick responses on my behalf. I was short on time last evening because I do have a life outside of this forum. So I would ask you to please be patient and understanding.

May God bless you.
 
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This bears out my post. If someone is trying to "should" me and educate me, I'm not interested in engaging because it is usually a one sided barrage coming my way. The person is trying to impose all of his/her "shoulds" and Pharaseeisms on me. I enjoy fellowshipping but I don't enjoy debating with someone who is just trying to prove himself right and me wrong.

However, Paul and others wrote wrong letters in them trying to correct other believers. Do you treat Christian articles in the same way or do you treat a Christian book in this way that has many verses in it? Again, information is not your enemy. It is only your perception that a wall of Scripture is your enemy when it is not. I have already stated that I have helped others by my posting of lots of Scripture before. I have also had received replies from others on a few of my verses in my long list of verses given before, too. So this means not everyone reacts in the way that you do. For whatever belief you hold to, there is a Christian out there who has a long list of verses that supports your particular belief. Take for example the topic that Jesus is GOD. I have a long list of verses that supports this conclusion.

Does God have a God? Explaining John 20:17 in Defense of the Trinity.

Are you against such Biblical resources? For me, they are helpful. Have you never done your own study on God's Word and come up with a long list of verses before? If you did come up with such a list, would you not be excited to share such a list with other believers and help them?

You said:
As a person receiving this post, it feels like a rush to judgement with assumptions as to why I don't want to engage in a wall of text and assuming I don't find God's Word a delight. This is another reason why I don't engage in someone with wall of Scriptures. To me it indicates they are wise in their own eyes and assume everyone else has nothing to add to the conversation.

So every Christian who has posted an article or published a book or posted a long set of verses on a forum is wise in their own eyes for doing a study on a particular topic and posting those verses? We are told in 2 Timothy 2:15 to study to show ourselves approved unto God.

I don't want to engage if someone feels they have the answers and are just trying to educate everyone else. I don't feel intimidated, or lack desire to search Scripture, I just have a lack of desire to be barraged by someone else's "clear (un)Biblical" Pharaseeisms. I feel that God will lead their heart and lift their filters in his time. James talks about every person being brought along to a more mature understanding in different issues in different timing than the others. Someone may be far more evolved in their understanding of God's truth in one area and another in another area. So I leave it to God to work what He wants each person to know in his own timing if they are not in a frame of mind to interact (in a bidirectional and open way) with others. I don't have time or inclination to kick my foot against the pricks with someone who already knows everything.

So you don't believe that the Bible talks about how there are teachers or pastors, etc.?
You don't believe that we can edify each other with what we have learned from God's Word?
How else can we do this unless we share Scripture with each other?

You said:
My response may not be describing you. I haven't been on CF for quite a while, so I haven't followed your posts at all for quite a while. You seem familiar to me but I can't remember the context of it. So this is a generic answer to the question you posed about why people might not want to engage with a wall of text and is not directed towards you personally.

I understand your concerns. There is a poster on the forums who once communicated to me by posting super long walls of text in every single post to me when I just want to talk to him normally one on one. This is a tactic I do not agree with. Posting a long set of verses as a part of starting a thread or to make a poster aware of a particular topic is one thing, but to keep repeating the long walls of verses over and over and over (every post) is to escape a real conversation and treat the other person as if they are not a human being.
 
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I didn't feel your answer to me addressed my points in this ^^ post at all.

I went back and replied to this post to the best of my ability. I hope it helps you to see where I am coming from.

May God bless you.
 
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Think of it this way then. Even Jesus used bite-sized pieces when he spoke his wisdom and teachings to others, depending on the context of where he was having the conversation. Certainly, there were times when he made a day of it, but there were many times when he used the "less is more" approach and just spoke a parable. You couldn't accuse Jesus himself of hiding the truth right?

You have to meet people where they are. Just because you teach people how to do a very simple integration problem of only one type rather than handing them all of calculus at once doesn't mean you are teaching them falsely.

And still, remember that the reason you asked your question in the first place is because you were unhappy with the way people were responding to your posts. While you can't force others to respond in the way you believe they should respond, you *do* have the power and ability to change things on your end and try different things for a better result.

And Jesus also gave us the sermon on the mount and that was a very long sermon.
I mean, stop and think for a moment.
Have you ever used a Christian resource before?
Take for example that Jesus is God.
I have discovered a resource that shows 160 reasons why Jesus is God.

You can check out that resource here:

Does God have a God? Explaining John 20:17 in Defense of the Trinity.

Are you saying it is wrong for me to post such resources that supports such a beautiful truth? I sure hope not.

Again, information is not your enemy but it is your friend.
It is only your perception that a long posting of Scripture is bad.
 
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Also this speaks back to my original point. Are you willing to learn from others? Are you willing to engage in mutually respectfully, fully bi-directional fellowship? As the saying goes, sometimes it's good to pull the cotton from one's ears and put it in one's mouth.

Why make accusations without any evidence to the contrary?
You are already throwing hammers of accusations at me without really knowing me.
For your information, I have even learned from my opponents many times (even when they were still in error on a particular belief still). I remember one time, I was arguing with an OSAS proponent who constantly accused me of false things (When I did not verbally attack her in any way), and she mentioned a different interpretation on a verse than I had at that time. At the time, God was telling me to re-read the chapter in light of that verse, and she was actually correct on that interpretation for that verse (Even though I still disagreed with her on her belief in OSAS). This was not the only time I have learned over the many years from my opponents online. So yes, I am more than willing to listen to others because I have already done so. But you are just falsely assuming that I don't listen by your accusation (or question). This is not a edifying and loving thing to do to a fellow believer - IMO.

You said:
I've spent my time posting the insights (that you asked for) and you haven't addressed any of it, nor actually engaged in a discussion. You've just stayed on your tangent of how YOU should educate me.

Are you not trying to educate me?
What makes your experience and education better than mine?
Are we not as believers supposed to edify each other and learn from each other?
Or should we bite and devour one another?
I asked for kind Christian advice on the forums, and I have received the opposite by many here. Then again, this is nothing new for me. But this will not stop me from loving them with the love of Jesus Christ. This will not stop me from being loving and truthful in return.

You said:
Edited to add: If I sense the person has cotton in their ears (as often a wall of 'educating-thee' text suggests), I just move on. I'm not interested in being run over by someone else's freight train. This may not be you, but my experience with such types is they are bursting with pride and I just don't have time to spend interacting with a proud person with cotton in their ears that wants to "should" me into their Pharaseeisms and whatever doctrine they're preaching that has led them to their pride. Now, that might not be you. I'm not saying it is. But often a wall of "preaching" to educate people in a forum is a pretty good indicator of such.

It is quite possible that you have had some bad experiences by others. But you should not throw the baby out with the bath water. Again, think about all those nice, and kind and good Christians out there who have posted helpful resources (i.e. a long list of verses) for a belief that you do agree with. Would you not find such resources helpful? Or would you just write the poster off as prideful and ignore the long list of verses (even if it is a belief that you happen to agree with)?
 
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bekkilyn

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And Jesus also gave us the sermon on the mount and that was a very long sermon.
I mean, stop and think for a moment.
Have you ever used a Christian resource before?
Take for example that Jesus is God.
I have discovered a resource that shows 160 reasons why Jesus is God.

You can check out that resource here:

Does God have a God? Explaining John 20:17 in Defense of the Trinity.

Are you saying it is wrong for me to post such resources that supports such a beautiful truth? I sure hope not.

Again, information is not your enemy but it is your friend.
It is only your perception that a long posting of Scripture is bad.

I'm not suggesting long posting of scripture is inherently bad or good; what I am suggesting is that if people are not responding to your posts in the way that you believe they should respond and it is caused by long posting of scripture, then your long posting of scripture is ineffective and you may need to use a different strategy to get a different result.

Jesus understood this. When he gave his long sermons, he did so at appropriate times and places to get the best results for what he wished to accomplish, and people knew of him well enough by that time that they believed it was worth dropping everything else in their lives to hear what he had to say.

When Jesus argued with the Pharisees and other Jewish leaders, they did not sit down, open up the entire Torah and work their way down through every sentence, discussing each one by one. No, they would ask him about a particular statement of law (usually trying to trap him) and then he would respond to that particular thing.

On an internet *discussion* forum, you are lucky to get 5 minutes of someone's time before they completely tune out, and so perhaps an internet forum would not be the appropriate place and/or medium to give long sermons. Unlike Jesus, most of us don't have large crowds of people following us around to hear what we have to say to them.

Time and place.

Again, you cannot force people to give you their time or attention or behave in a way you believe they should be behaving. You can only change things on your end, and if you aren't getting the results you want, then you only have the power to change your own strategy.
 
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