Killing in Self-Defense

[trulytheone]

Is killing in self-defense (even accidentally) a sin? If yes, is this sin damnable? What if, in self-defense, you killed one of the aggressors and yet you were killed by the other after what you have done? Are you going to be damned for this?

 

[SamanthaAnastasia]

Is killing in self-defense (even accidentally) a sin? If yes, is this sin damnable? What if, in self-defense, you killed one of the aggressors and yet you were killed by the other after what you have done? Am I going to be damned for this?

I’m not orthodox yet but I’ll give you my personal opinion.
I have been in fights before. I always tried to not fight back even though they started it. Every time i actually did strike back, it was instinctual. I felt horrible about it nonetheless. I believe that would be the same for killing in self defense.
I’ve hear many arguments about how murder is different than killing in self defense.
That being said, I just think if you had no control over it and are truly repentant over the issue, then it is not damnable.
Hope that helps.

 

[HTacianas]

Is killing in self-defense (even accidentally) a sin? If yes, is this sin damnable? What if, in self-defense, you killed one of the aggressors and yet you were killed by the other after what you have done? Are you going to be damned for this?

The closest you're likely to come to an answer to your question is the generally accepted idea that killing is a sin, but that killing in self defense is a lesser sin. There are commentaries such as those of St. Basil regarding killing in wartime. The idea is of a soldier who has killed in wartime while fighting against a barbarian enemy.

XIII. Homicide in war is not reckoned by our Fathers as homicide; I presume from their wish to make concession to men fighting on behalf of chastity and true religion. Perhaps, however, it is well to counsel that those whose hands are not clean only abstain from communion for three years.

In any event it is something you should discuss with a priest.

 

[ArmyMatt]

yes, it is sinful. no, it is not damnable. some sinful things happen because we have to make due being in a fallen condition.

but I agree with above, ask your priest.

 

[Neogaia777]

It's most certainly got to be for a "forgivable offense to kill in self-defense", if it is an offense...

God Bless!

 

[timewerx]

Is killing in self-defense (even accidentally) a sin? If yes, is this sin damnable? What if, in self-defense, you killed one of the aggressors and yet you were killed by the other after what you have done? Are you going to be damned for this?

It's probably a sin if you had an option not to kill the guy to save yourself or others from harm but you chose to kill him instead.

For example, you have an option to retreat or back off but instead, you quickly drew your pistol and shot the guy.

It could be a guy that is simply having a psychotic episode and acting in a dangerous manner and instead of trying to restrain him, you quickly judge him to be a low life and shot him - this is definitely bad.

You could kill in self defense.....BUT think really hard, don't be quick to judge and make sure you have already exhausted all other non-lethal options before employing lethal options.

 

[Neogaia777]

It's probably a sin if you had an option not to kill the guy to save yourself or others from harm but you chose to kill him instead.

For example, you have an option to retreat or back off but instead, you quickly drew your pistol and shot the guy.

It could be a guy that is simply having a psychotic episode and acting in a dangerous manner and instead of trying to restrain him, you quickly judge him to be a low life and shot him - this is definitely bad.

You could kill in self defense.....BUT think really hard, don't be quick to judge and make sure you have already exhausted all other non-lethal options before employing lethal options.

When (and if only after) all other options for peaceful settlement are foreclosed...? (or have fallen apart or failed)...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

When (and if only after) all other options for peaceful settlement are foreclosed...? (or have fallen apart or failed)...?

God Bless!

And when there is, or seems to be, absolutely "no hope", of ever coming to any kind of peaceful settlement or foreclosure ever... and then, beyond that, if they are hell bent on killing you...? Then you have a decision to make... Or what about your loved ones or others that you love, ect...?

What then becomes "acceptable" (though)...?

God Bless!

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes it is a sin. But then the fact is, we sin pretty constantly. If God is not forgiving, we would have no hope.

The question asked that way to me sounds like a legal bias. One Protestant group I belonged to at one time taught that all sin must be repented properly and forgiveness asked, or else we risk salvation. If a truck pulls out in front of you on the interstate, and you have evil thoughts towards the driver but are instantly killed, then there is no chance for repentance and so you die with the scales tipped the wrong way and are condemned. That implies slipping in and out of salvation continually in a very legalistic way.

We simply don't understand God in this way.

Killing anyone is a sin and sickens the soul. How much it sickens the soul depends on many factors - surely the fact that it was an unavoidable killing (or something we considered "necessary") factors in. But it's not just about culpability. Even killing in self-defense means on some level, we made our life of greater importance and value than someone else's. It might even be the "right" thing to do ... but it still has some effect on our soul.

What effect that is, and how to heal it, is very personal. God knows of course, but among humans we need His help and wisdom to apply the medicine. I wouldn't begin to speculate. Ideally a person would continue to live and have opportunity to repent and be healed. But if a person dies immediately in the incident, I suspect the effect on a person's soul is heavily affected by who they already are in relation to Christ.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If I'm not mistaken the the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment really means Thou shalt do no murder, and I would tend to agree with that definition, if for no other reason, it makes perfect sense.

That would mean killing in self defense is not a sin, because the actual sin is murder. Kind of like it is not a sin to kill in war, as it is not murder.

The laws of the land reflect that as well, no one goes to prison for self defense, and we all know God has his hands on the laws of the land.

Clear cut self defense is never a sin, but always unfortunate.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Is killing in self-defense (even accidentally) a sin? If yes, is this sin damnable? What if, in self-defense, you killed one of the aggressors and yet you were killed by the other after what you have done? Are you going to be damned for this?

Not all killing is sin. Only Murder is. "There is a time to kill and a time to heal" (Ecclesiastes 3:3)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Welcome to our visitors.

I want to point out so that no debate begins, this is The Ancient Way, which is the Eastern Orthodox forum. We are glad to have visitors.

But because all human beings are created in the image of God, it is always a sin to destroy that image. It might be LESS sinful than failing to prevent that person from carrying out some terrible evil, so it could be the right thing to do in a given circumstance. Or at least a lesser sin. But it is always something to grieve over.

It is even possible that someone who is forced to kill another person (even to defend themselves or innocent people) can damage themselves spiritually by convincing themselves there was no sin so that they can feel justified. The spirit may recognize the sin and NEED to grieve and repent. Repentance is healing. Nothing is gained by denying sin just for the sake of being comfortable.

But in any case, God isn't looking to condemn on technicalities. The whole purpose of salvation is to heal our fallen nature and restore us to our full humanity in the image and likeness of God, in perfect communion with Him eternally. And denying sin as sin that might prevent the opportunity to repent doesn't help that process.

But it may indeed be a NECESSARY and/or unavoidable sin, in some circumstances. The world after all is terribly fallen and broken.

 

[gzt]

You should pray not to be ever put in such an unlikely position. I would just say that, as Christians, we have a lot more things worth dying for than killing for. To get to your specific case of self defense against two attackers, I don't our tradition is uniformly opposed to self defense and while one must repent of even excusable killing, I'm sure God notes the lack of opportunity and is merciful.

 

[Andrei D]

The only sin that comes close to whatever you mean by "damnable" in our Tradition is sinning against the Holy Spirit. That has direct Gospel sourcing as well. All other sins are thought to be "forgivable"

I hope I am not completely off base here, but focusing on what might be, what would you do, and evaluating legalistic concepts such self defense or other "mitigating circumstances" is not meaningful from an Orthodox perspective. All sin is calamitous, and all sin is forgiven by God for His reasons, not by us based on our understanding. I think using too much thought to "quantify" the sinfulness of an act in the abstract pulls you away from what is important. The focus of the Church is on healing from the effects of sin through repentance, prayer, confession, Communion (when allowed after certain types of sin) and sincere attempt to improve oneself. That is both an individual pursuit with individual nuance and guidance from one's priest, and a communal pursuit through supportive brotherhood, but neither the priest, nor the community are called to judge or cast out or give up on people for perceived "worse sinfulness" or exempt them for "better sins". What would legalistically seem a "small sin" might damage one individual more than others due to factors like inability to repent or confess or even accept it as a sin. This is why we are so afraid and dismayed by the "love yourself no matter what you do" culture of today - not understanding one's sin as sin is more consequential than even the "relative severity" of sinning in many cases, because then there is no starting point for healing and forgiveness.

I apologize, I might not be getting my point across clearly.

 

[John0987]

Maybe, though certainly less than believing actions are "damnable".
This is the despair of Judas. Happy Pascha, read the Paschal homily of St. John Chrysostom and his "On the Betrayal of Judas".

 

[Neogaia777]

Welcome to our visitors.

I want to point out so that no debate begins, this is The Ancient Way, which is the Eastern Orthodox forum. We are glad to have visitors.

But because all human beings are created in the image of God, it is always a sin to destroy that image. It might be LESS sinful than failing to prevent that person from carrying out some terrible evil, so it could be the right thing to do in a given circumstance. Or at least a lesser sin. But it is always something to grieve over.

It is even possible that someone who is forced to kill another person (even to defend themselves or innocent people) can damage themselves spiritually by convincing themselves there was no sin so that they can feel justified. The spirit may recognize the sin and NEED to grieve and repent. Repentance is healing. Nothing is gained by denying sin just for the sake of being comfortable.

But in any case, God isn't looking to condemn on technicalities. The whole purpose of salvation is to heal our fallen nature and restore us to our full humanity in the image and likeness of God, in perfect communion with Him eternally. And denying sin as sin that might prevent the opportunity to repent doesn't help that process.

But it may indeed be a NECESSARY and/or unavoidable sin, in some circumstances. The world after all is terribly fallen and broken.

If my instincts take over and I kill in self defense when that happens, then I may not be able to stop or control it, they literally will "take over" in that moment, I think...

It is a sin, but a forgivable one, but if we decide to kill collectively or as a group or people against another group or people, and we declare war, how then do the rules change, and what becomes acceptable or not acceptable...?

I agree we should all always grieve it, or grieve over it though, BTW...

God Bless!

 

[Lukaris]

Luke 22:35-38

I do not cite this as some loophole but as inevitability in situations in this world.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If my instincts take over and I kill in self defense when that happens, then I may not be able to stop or control it, they literally will "take over" in that moment, I think...

It is a sin, but a forgivable one, but if we decide to kill collectively or as a group or people against another group or people, and we declare war, how then do the rules change, and what becomes acceptable or not acceptable...?

I agree we should all always grieve it, or grieve over it though, BTW...

God Bless!

All sins are forgiveable, except one.

This is just a different way than how we look at the whole thing. Too concerned with legal technicalities. Orthodoxy doesn't work that way. It's tailored to the person, known only fully to God, and aimed at healing them. Think hospital, not courtroom.

But being "taken over" by passions is not an excuse. God desires to heal us of these and make us like Christ. Not using them as an excuse to simply overlook what we do not deal with in ourselves. But that still doesn't mean automatic condemnation. It just isn't an excuse.

 

[Neogaia777]

All sins are forgiveable, except one.

This is just a different way than how we look at the whole thing. Too concerned with legal technicalities. Orthodoxy doesn't work that way. It's tailored to the person, known only fully to God, and aimed at healing them. Think hospital, not courtroom.

But being "taken over" by passions is not an excuse. God desires to heal us of these and make us like Christ. Not using them as an excuse to simply overlook what we do not deal with in ourselves. But that still doesn't mean automatic condemnation. It just isn't an excuse.

Is there a difference between instincts and passions though...? Cause I'm talking about the former, not the latter...

Oh and I'm not trying to excuse or looking for an excuse either, I still think it would be wrong to kill...

But then you have to wonder when does killing become acceptable, ect...? If it is permitted or is permissible under any circumstances, ect...?

God Bless!

 

[FireDragon76]

Nobody can force you to be a martyr. If somebody attacks you with intent to kill or maim you or a loved one, or even an innocent person, it's consistent with justice if you act in self-defense.

If my instincts take over and I kill in self defense when that happens, then I may not be able to stop or control it, they literally will "take over" in that moment, I think...

That's why avoiding potentially violent confrontations is important. People being people, alot of conflicts happen merely because peoples egoes get too big.