Kerry’s Rage Against Israel

[redleghunter]

I don't know how that was a valid response to the boys playing soccer on a beach with no Hamas members, weapons, tunnels, etc. being targeted. Nor do I know how it was a response to UN schools/shelters being struck despite no weapons or human shields being used. Again:

Chris Gunness, spokesman for UNRWA, which runs Gaza’s UN schools said: In none of the schools which were hit directly or in the immediate vicinity, were weapons discovered or fired from.

Israel responsible for Gaza strikes on UN schools and shelters, inquiry finds

You were making the point the Israelis were directly targeting children. Where is there proof of such?

Bad Intel? Sure I'd say the target area given was due to bad Intel and incompetent collateral damage non combatant assessments. Until we know what the Israelis thought they were targeting we don't have intent of killing children.

Of course you know that at 12-15 thousand feet in the air no pilot can tell the age or disposition of human beings on the ground running at 700 or more knots.

Someone passed that target to a pilot either an on the ground controller or a drone downlinked to another site.

Either way children were killed and someone in the attack chain is responsible.

This however is a big difference from what you propose is that Israel directly targeted children. There is no evidence for such. Negligence requiring investigation and charges filed for negligence...yes.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't know how that was a valid response to the boys playing soccer on a beach with no Hamas members, weapons, tunnels, etc. being targeted. Nor do I know how it was a response to UN schools/shelters being struck despite no weapons or human shields being used. Again:

Chris Gunness, spokesman for UNRWA, which runs Gaza’s UN schools said: In none of the schools which were hit directly or in the immediate vicinity, were weapons discovered or fired from.

Israel responsible for Gaza strikes on UN schools and shelters, inquiry finds

Here's more:

Israel exonerates itself over Gaza beach killings of four children last year

 

[redleghunter]

Regardless of what Kerry said or didnt say yesterday, it doesnt change my opinion of the United States past tendency to have blind loyalty towards Israel.

Putting aside the politics, this loyalty towards Israel may have to do with being a stable democracy in an unstable region.

With the current Palestinian organizations in power there are no stable options at two states.

Arafat had the best deal and could not or would not deliver.

We tend to forget the PLO was routed in the early 80s to the point Arafat had to flee to Greece and then to Tunisia to reform the PLO.

When he and his fighters returned to the West Bank in 1994, the Israeli government allowed it given Arafat agreed to the peace agreement.

At every step the factions in Gaza and the West Bank slapped away the hand of peace holding to not recognizing Israel as a legitimate state and right to exist.

Yeah I would be loyal to Israel too after this history.

 

[bhsmte]

Putting aside the politics, this loyalty towards Israel may have to do with being a stable democracy in an unstable region.

With the current Palestinian organizations in power there are no stable options at two states.

Arafat had the best deal and could not or would not deliver.

We tend to forget the PLO was routed in the early 80s to the point Arafat had to flee to Greece and then to Tunisia to reform the PLO.

When he and his fighters returned to the West Bank in 1994, the Israeli government allowed it given Arafat agreed to the peace agreement.

At every step the factions in Gaza and the West Bank slapped away the hand of peace holding to not recognizing Israel as a legitimate state and right to exist.

Yeah I would be loyal to Israel too after this history.

The blind loyalty to Israel, goes far beyond trying to keep a stable democracy in the middle east.

 

[redleghunter]

The blind loyalty to Israel, goes far beyond trying to keep a stable democracy in the middle east.

There is that but easily balanced by an entire region hostile towards blind rage to eliminate Israel from the map.

The US in practice seems to favor Arab nations. We sent more treasure and blood to Arab lands to supposedly provide stability. Our nation's political decisions and strategy has overall destabilized the region and endangered Israelis.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

There is that but easily balanced by an entire region hostile towards blind rage to eliminate Israel from the map.

The US in practice seems to favor Arab nations. We sent more treasure and blood to Arab lands to supposedly provide stability. Our nation's political decisions and strategy has overall destabilized the region and endangered Israelis.

It isnt like israel is following the old jewish laws to the t or anything. They have gay pride parades for crying out loud. Compared to some of our other allies in the ME i wont mention names lets just say it rhymes with audi arcadia.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

You were making the point the Israelis were directly targeting children. Where is there proof of such?

The fact that they were hit in a double tap strike. The fact that they targeted a shelter they were notified about 17 times before they hit it.

Either way children were killed and someone in the attack chain is responsible.

Yes.

Here's more:

Israel exonerates itself over Gaza beach killings of four children last year

Do you not see a problem with this? Israel exonerated *itself* over the murders. What have they done to inspire confidence that they have a good justice system against the Israeli army?

The Israeli military exonerated itself late last month in 13 cases it had been investigating. These included lethal attacks on three Palestinian families, the shelling of a hospital and a United Nations shelter for civilians, and the bombing of Gaza's main power plant. It declined to investigate another 80 complaints.

In response, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon criticised Israel for the "low rate of investigations opened into these serious allegations".

Since Protective Edge, two of Israel's largest human rights groups, B'Tselem and Yesh Din, have refused to cooperate with Israeli investigations in Gaza, accusing the Israeli military of using them to "whitewash" its actions.
--
Israel denied entry to UN commissions of inquiry in 2009 and 2014, following major offensives in Gaza.

Will Israel be put on trial for war crimes?

Really, the similarities between Israel and Assad's regime's methods are staggering (though, of course, Assad is far worse than Israel).

 

[mmksparbud]

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/...aflet-israeli-attackers-warn-gazans.html?_r=0

Israel warns Gaza residents to leave before strikes - CNN.com

Palestinians Flee Gaza After Israel Drops Warning Leaflets


Why were there children still there?? The adults fled, why were the children left behind?
In this country we kill our unwanted and inconvenient with abortion, we are at least honest about it, in the middle east---they proudly send them to the front line to be killed claiming it is in the name of their god.
Why have the Jews been able to hold on to their tiny speck of land when the whole world wants to take that speck of dust away from them and wipe them off the face of the earth to boot? How many years have all the surrounding countries being trying to get rid of them now? And they are still there---are they indeed the master race that Hitler was trying to build? Do you believe them to be so far superior in abilities to those around them that they have been able to turn their dessert into gardens to feed themselves, to be leaders even in medical research, are even their cattle so superior that their cows, though smaller than the US cow produce more milk and are considered the best in the world and everyone wants to know how come? They are outnumbered 1000 to 1 at least, but they are still there. Are they so much smarter than those around them?
They are surrounded by people with enormous wealth from oil, the wealthiest people in the world, that can buy and sell armies, and yet they are still there. Are they so superior to you? Or could it be that they are not sending children to do the work of adults, that they are not so busy trying to kill everyone that doesn't believe as they do that they not only butcher and drive their own people away but they invade other countries and try to ake those countries over? Is it that they are using their land and their people to be independent and take care of their own food and medical and housing and that knowledge is a blessing to other nations? Or is it that maybe there is a hand much larger than any USA or any other country that is letting them keep the land they were promised?

 

[wing2000]

Zechariah 12:8-9

"On that day the Lord will put a shield about the inhabitants of Jerusalem so that the feeblest among them on that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the angel of the Lord, at their head. And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem."
.

Irrelevant.

 

[mmksparbud]

Irrelevant.

To you, not to the Jew.

 

[redleghunter]

The fact that they were hit in a double tap strike. The fact that they targeted a shelter they were notified about 17 times before they hit it.



Yes.



Do you not see a problem with this? Israel exonerated *itself* over the murders. What have they done to inspire confidence that they have a good justice system against the Israeli army?

The Israeli military exonerated itself late last month in 13 cases it had been investigating. These included lethal attacks on three Palestinian families, the shelling of a hospital and a United Nations shelter for civilians, and the bombing of Gaza's main power plant. It declined to investigate another 80 complaints.

In response, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon criticised Israel for the "low rate of investigations opened into these serious allegations".

Since Protective Edge, two of Israel's largest human rights groups, B'Tselem and Yesh Din, have refused to cooperate with Israeli investigations in Gaza, accusing the Israeli military of using them to "whitewash" its actions.
--
Israel denied entry to UN commissions of inquiry in 2009 and 2014, following major offensives in Gaza.

Will Israel be put on trial for war crimes?

Really, the similarities between Israel and Assad's regime's methods are staggering (though, of course, Assad is far worse than Israel).

You can't tell if there is a kid or adult at 15,000 ft going over 600 knots. Which means they should not have fired the missiles/rockets.

The fault squarely is on whatever intelligence received on the target area. Meaning even with good intelligence one needs positive ID (PID) of a target. They obviously did not by their own admission which means someone in the target chain should be under charges for murder.

Assad on the other hand, is applying old Russian Soviet scorch and burn without regard to human life.

 

[cordie]

I think it was another sad Kerry moment. He turned his back on our staunch ally Israel. The Jewish people have been kicked around for too long. This is their land-their home. This is the land God gave to them. I believe many good things come from the Jewish people. People often wonder why they're so liberal; my reply is because their history tells them to know what it's like to be the underdog. I think this president has been fairly hostile to them. You can't do that. Israel is the land of my Lord.

 

[mmksparbud]

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/...aflet-israeli-attackers-warn-gazans.html?_r=0

Israel warns Gaza residents to leave before strikes - CNN.com

Palestinians Flee Gaza After Israel Drops Warning Leaflets

Again---why were there children there? The adults fled, leaving the children, why?

 

[Aryeh Jay]

You can't tell if there is a kid or adult at 15,000 ft going over 600 knots. Which means they should not have fired the missiles/rockets.

The fault squarely is on whatever intelligence received on the target area. Meaning even with good intelligence one needs positive ID (PID) of a target. They obviously did not by their own admission which means someone in the target chain should be under charges for murder.

Assad on the other hand, is applying old Russian Soviet scorch and burn without regard to human life.

That attack was not an aircraft bombing; it was the Israeli Navy doing a shore bombardment.

 

[redleghunter]

Again---why were there children there? The adults fled, leaving the children, why?

There is much to say about parents or guardians allowing kids outdoors during a shooting war. Especially when the site was attacked previously.

This still does not acquit poor PID of the target area.

 

[redleghunter]

That attack was not an aircraft bombing; it was the Israeli Navy doing a shore bombardment.

I was going by this eyewitness account:

The initial reports coming from journalists on the scene attributed the explosions to gunfire from Israeli Navy boats that have been firing at targets on the coast in recent days. Beaumont who has covered many wars including Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan and Bosnia, says that after he and colleagues began getting a clearer picture, he reached the conclusion that it was most likely an air strike. "Usually when we hear the naval gunfire we hear after the explosion also the sound of the guns, from a few kilometers out to sea. After everything settled down, I realized we didn't hear any firing out to sea."
read more:

An eyewitness account of the attack that killed four children on Gaza beach

Perhaps you have a source with the full findings which established the Israeli navy.

 

[wing2000]

For those who claim the US has abandoned Israel, can you explain how the United States under President Obama has continued to provide very high levels of military and non-military foreign aid?

Excerpt from Kerry's speech:


"In fact, this Administration has been Israel’s greatest friend and supporter, with an absolutely unwavering commitment to advancing Israel’s security and protecting its legitimacy.

On this point, I want to be very clear: No American administration has done more for Israel’s security than Barack Obama’s. The Israeli prime minister himself has noted our, quote, “unprecedented” military and intelligence cooperation. Our military exercises are more advanced than ever. Our assistance for Iron Dome has saved countless Israeli lives. We have consistently supported Israel’s right to defend itself, by itself, including during actions in Gaza that sparked great controversy.

Time and again we have demonstrated that we have Israel’s back. We have strongly opposed boycotts, divestment campaigns, and sanctions targeting Israel in international fora, whenever and wherever its legitimacy was attacked, and we have fought for its inclusion across the UN system. In the midst of our own financial crisis and budget deficits, we repeatedly increased funding to support Israel. In fact, more than one-half of our entire global Foreign Military Financing goes to Israel. And this fall, we concluded an historic $38 billion memorandum of understanding that exceeds any military assistance package the United States has provided to any country, at any time, and that will invest in cutting-edge missile defense and sustain Israel’s qualitative military edge for years to come. That’s the measure of our support.

Remarks on Middle East Peace

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I was going by this eyewitness account:

The initial reports coming from journalists on the scene attributed the explosions to gunfire from Israeli Navy boats that have been firing at targets on the coast in recent days. Beaumont who has covered many wars including Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan and Bosnia, says that after he and colleagues began getting a clearer picture, he reached the conclusion that it was most likely an air strike. "Usually when we hear the naval gunfire we hear after the explosion also the sound of the guns, from a few kilometers out to sea. After everything settled down, I realized we didn't hear any firing out to sea."
read more:

An eyewitness account of the attack that killed four children on Gaza beach

Perhaps you have a source with the full findings which established the Israeli navy.

Well, it seems my information is two years old and it has been corrected to an aircraft. I was just going off of what I remembered when the story first broke.

 

[seashale76]

John Kerry was spot on about Israel.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, it seems my information is two years old and it has been corrected to an aircraft. I was just going off of what I remembered when the story first broke.

Fully understand. I had to click a bit to find the article.