Kentucky County Clerk Kim Davis Jailed for Not Issuing Gay Marriage Licenses

[brewmama]

No, that's if you're looking at it subjectively. An objective researcher would never play the No True Scotsman card.

So you're just ignoring all the evidence ad all the quotes already provided? There are a lot more.

 

[tulc]

Yes but if i say that Hitler was a German in attempt to criticize the German race then that its bigotry. If i say that Al Capone was an Italian in an attempt to criticize the Italian race then that is also bigotry. That is also exactly what is being done here when people say Hitler was a Christian.

Hitler wasn't German, he was Austrian. Al Capone had Italian parents but was born in New York city so he was American. Hitler however was raised a Roman Catholic and never left the Catholic Church...well until his suicide got him excommunicated from it. The truth is Hitler used whatever he thought would help him get what he wanted, so if he thought quoting Luther would help, he'd quote him. His personal beliefs, I suspect, was he saw himself as Gods instrument/voice in Germany. And, as a lot of people do, lo and behold: God hated the same people he did.
tulc(no surprise there)

 

[pat34lee]

Wrong. Violating an oath is, according to Scripture, a sin. Contempt of court is a matter for the courts.

You skipped a step. If the court had no standing, then he could not issue a contempt charge.

 

[Dave Ellis]

First off, all that would prove is that Lutheran ideas lead hitler to commit his crimes. However that does not prove that he used Christian ideas. Christian ideas would come from the bible but Luther didnt write any part of the bible. Secondly, just because Hitler may have twisted Luther's words doesn't mean that Luther's ideas lead to Hitlers crimes. I can twist the theory of evolution (or any scientific ideas) in order to commit crimes but no one here would dare criticize Evolution theory for my crimes. They would instead say i was a madman and blame it on my madness, not on ideas surrounding evolution.

I see, so key Christian writings by the founder of the reformation no longer count as Christian, and Hitler somehow "twisted" Luther's writings titled "on the Jews and their lies", which advocated the destruction and confiscation of Jewish property and the murder of Jews into an anti-Semitic work, which it clearly wasn't before Hitler got his hands on it.

Seriously dude... If this is the level you're going to stoop to, there's no point in even continuing this discussion. You're not being reasonable. I think it's fairly clear that Christianity has long been used as a tool of anti-Semitic persecution. Burying your head in the sand and denying the clear truth of that fact isn't going to change reality.

 

[brewmama]

By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work.

~ Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf

He sounds more like a Muslim if that's your proof. Plus you conveniently ignore all the anti-Christian quotes by Hitler that have been provided.

 

[tulc]

You skipped a step. If the court had no standing, then he could not issue a contempt charge.

If you have evidence the court had no standing I'd be interested in seeing it.
tulc(likes links to things)

 

[tulc]

Anyone been here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism

In his book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William L. Shirer wrote:

It is difficult to understand the behavior of most German Protestants in the first Nazi years unless one is aware of two things: their history and the influence of Martin Luther. The great founder of Protestantism was both a passionate anti-Semite and a ferocious believer in absolute obedience to political authority. He wanted Germany rid of the Jews. Luther's advice was literally followed four centuries later by Hitler, Goering and Himmler.[67]

or here:

The line of "anti-semitic descent" from Luther to Hitler is "easy to draw",[55] according to American historian Lucy Dawidowicz. In her The War Against the Jews, 1933–1945, she writes that both Luther and Hitler were obsessed by the "demonologized universe" inhabited by Jews, with Hitler asserting that the later Luther, the author of On the Jews and Their Lies was the real Luther.[55]

Dawidowicz writes that the similarities between Luther's anti-Jewish writings and modern antisemitism are no coincidence, because they derived from a common history of Judenhass, which can be traced to Haman's advice to Ahasuerus. Although modern German antisemitism also has its roots in German nationalism and Christian antisemitism, she argues that a foundation for this was laid by the Roman Catholic Church, "upon which Luther built".[55] Michael has argued that Luther scholars who try to tone down Luther's views on the Jews ignore the murderous implications of his antisemitism. Michael argues that there is a "strong parallel" between Luther's ideas and the antisemitism of most German Lutherans throughout the Holocaust.[56] Like the Nazis, Luther mythologized the Jews as evil, he writes. They could be saved only if they converted to Christianity, but their hostility to the idea made it inconceivable.[56]

Luther's sentiments were widely echoed in the Germany of the 1930s, particularly within the Nazi party. Hitler's Education Minister, Bernhard Rust, was quoted by the Völkischer Beobachter as saying that: "Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance ... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp [Schrot und Korn]".[57]

tulc(in case anyone was curious)

 

[Poster0]

I see, so key Christian writings by the founder of the reformation no longer count as Christian, and Hitler somehow "twisted" Luther's writings titled "on the Jews and their lies", which advocated the destruction and confiscation of Jewish property and the murder of Jews into an anti-Semitic work, which it clearly wasn't before Hitler got his hands on it.

Seriously dude... If this is the level you're going to stoop to, there's no point in even continuing this discussion. You're not being reasonable. I think it's fairly clear that Christianity has long been used as a tool of anti-Semitic persecution. Burying your head in the sand and denying the clear truth of that fact isn't going to change reality.

Not all Christians follow Luther's words, and Luther was born 1438 years after Christ was crucified, and at least 1348 to 1438 years after the scriptures were written, so its irrational to say Hitler used Christian Ideas. Instead you can only say that he used Luther's Ideas.

 

[Dave Ellis]

He sounds more like a Muslim if that's your proof. Plus you conveniently ignore all the anti-Christian quotes by Hitler that have been provided.

The important thing to consider is that all of the anti-Christian quotes attributed to Hitler come from second hand sources, and all are limited to the last couple years of his life.

All of his first hand quotes, and more importantly the quotes from the era in which he was creating his Nazi philosophy come from the era in his life in which he was undoubtedly a bible believing Christian.

Even if the Anti-Christian quotes from circa 1944 are all legit, it's irrelevant. He developed Nazism and his own personal anti-Semitism during the 20's and 30's when he had nothing but good things to say about the church, and clearly considered himself a follower of Christ.

During the era in which he wrote Mein Kampf, he had no political power and had no motivation to hide his true religious feelings. Despite that fact, he openly boasted about doing the lords work and being a follower of Jesus.

 

[loveofourlord]

A new fun wrinkle in the situation, to those saying her divoces didn't count because she wasn't Christian....SHE WAS A BAPTIST, she converted to Apostolic Christianity. So YES she was a Christian when she had divorces, or are people defending her going to claim baptists arn't Christians?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Not all Christians follow Luther's words, and Luther was born 1438 years after Christ was crucified, and at least 1348 to 1438 years after the scriptures were written, so its irrational to say Hitler used Christian Ideas. Instead you can only say that he used Luther's Ideas.

Except Luther's ideas were built upon Christian ones. For example, the idea that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus and the anti-Semitism found in a couple of Paul's letters and the Gospel of John in particular.

 

[bhsmte]

You put too much trust in it, too.

Trust in what?

 

[bhsmte]

Yes, but they acknowledge their wrong and ask forgiveness. Hitler never did that.. Hitler did not follow Christ and so he cannot be labeled a true Christian.


Mathew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

How do you know who asks for forgiveness and who doesn't.

Does this then mean, if a Christian murders someone and repents and asks forgiveness, they are all good?

 

[Poster0]

Except Luther's ideas were built upon Christian ones. For example, the idea that the Jews were responsible for killing Jesus and the anti-Semitism found in a couple of Paul's letters and the Gospel of John in particular.

THe bible in no way would lead a rational person to think that killing anyone, let alone Jews, is an act of following Christ. What words of Christ or His apostles would they base it on? There are none that can be rationally used to justify crimes against humanity. Your argument is either irrational itself, or just ignorant of what the Lord teaches us. There is no way you can justify using Hitler to criticize the teaching of the Lord or His apostles. ITs really just bigotry or ignorance. I dont mean to sound harsh but thats what it is.

 

[Cearbhall]

He sounds more like a Muslim if that's your proof.

Erm, what? Are you unaware of the horrific history of the persecution of Jews at the hands of Christians in Europe? Hitler was not Muslim, and one doesn't need to bring that religion into the conversation to analyze his quote.

 

[Poster0]

How do you know who asks for forgiveness and who doesn't.

Does this then mean, if a Christian murders someone and repents and asks forgiveness, they are all good?

It means that i would need forgive them. The Lord says if a brother sins against us and then turns to us and asks forgiveness that we must forgive him. God will be the ultimate judge though, and i cant speak for God. God sees into the heart and sees things that we cannot see.

 

[Poster0]

Erm, what? Are you unaware of the horrific history of the persecution of Jews at the hands of Christians in Europe? Hitler was not Muslim, and one doesn't need to bring that religion into the conversation to analyze his quote.

Whats your religion? You sit back and criticize others but you don't even have enough courtesy to allow your own religion to be criticized.

 

[Red Fox]

A new fun wrinkle in the situation, to those saying her divoces didn't count because she wasn't Christian....SHE WAS A BAPTIST, she converted to Apostolic Christianity. So YES she was a Christian when she had divorces, or are people defending her going to claim baptists arn't Christians?

And all those Christians declaring that her divorces and re-marriages shouldn't count against her because she wasn't a Christian then.

 

[TerranceL]

He sounds more like a Muslim if that's your proof. Plus you conveniently ignore all the anti-Christian quotes by Hitler that have been provided.

Actually he sounds like Martin Luther..... you do know who he was right?

 

[Dave Ellis]

THe bible in no way would lead a rational person to think that killing anyone, let alone Jews, is an act of following Christ. What words of Christ or His apostles would they base it on? There are none that can be rationally used to justify crimes against humanity. Your argument is either irrational itself, or just ignorant of what the Lord teaches us. There is no way you can justify using Hitler to criticize the teaching of the Lord or His apostles. ITs really just bigotry or ignorance. I dont mean to sound harsh but thats what it is.

One of the verses cited most often for biblically backed anti-Semitism is Matthew 27:24-25

“When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.”

Many Christians throughout the ages have taken that scripture to mean that the Jews not only were responsible for Jesus's crucifixion, they specifically took responsibility and said his blood is upon them and their children.

It's not hard to see how Jewish persecution from the Christian majority a couple centuries down the road would have grown out of scriptures like that.

If you want more examples, Titus 10:11 says: “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.”

Acts 7:51-52 says: “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.”

or 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16: “For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”


I could keep going if you wish... but I think I've shown that there are some clearly anti-Semitic writings in the New Testament.