Kent Hovind

[ZoneChaos]

Originally posted by mac_philo


I disagree, but if that's true, we're watching the death throes of the religion. It will soon be gone.

hehe.. death throws.... LOL Like what BigJon is saying is anything new...

 

[mac_philo]

On one level he isn't saying anything new; Christianity is frequently a stubborn entity that spends a few generations struggling to deny the undeniable. But if his opinion is right, that one can never be a christian and believe in evolution, then in a few generations it will be extinct.

I don't think he's right, and I don't think christianity will go extinct, but in his binary terms, it's rather clear who is going to lose. The side that has already lost.

But his point of view is hopelessly confused, since christianity already accepts evolution. It is just a small, vocal, dull English speaking minority that does not.

 

[Sinai]

I think the word "Christian" means someone who accepts the Nicene Creed.

Believing in evolution would be enough to throw out any so called christian label.

Perhaps its a natural tendancy for those of us who are of a particular faith to assume that all persons of that faith must by necessity believe exactly the way we do. Perhaps that's one reason that so many churches and denominations have split, and it may even help to explain some of the wars that have been fought in the name of religion.

I seriously doubt that either God or the Bible requires that in order to be saved one must either accept the Nicene Creed or disbelieve the theory of evolution. Such requirements sound a bit like the Pharasees' rules and regulations. And we probably should keep in mind what Christ had to say about that.

We may have some good healthy debates regarding the merits of evolution....or the Big Bang theory....or possible theories of creation....or about some other topic we may find interesting. We may discuss what the Bible means in certain verses, or may debate about how consistent the Bible is with scientific discoveries. But just because another Christian disagrees with us on some area that is not a vital point in faith does not necessarily mean he or she is not a Christian or is not saved through faith in Christ.

Shalom.

 

[God Fixation]

Originally posted by mac_philo
Now, Hovind doesn't publish in scientific journals, so he is not subject to peer review. He can simply ascertain what people want to hear, and then give it to them, without any of the constraints employed by the scientific community.

Hey, I was just on his site and it was talking about how to get that 250k, your findings would be looked over by a peer review, and if it passed then you would get it. So that says something, no? I mean it must be somewhat important to him if he made his 250k give-away encompass it...

 

[Freodin]

As soon as he starts talking about "Evolution" bringing time, space and matter into existance out of nothing, he tells lies.

The can absolutely be no empirical proof for that, simply because Evolution does not deal with this topic.

Hovind knows this, but keeps up this nonsense for publicity reasons.

 

[God Fixation]

Froeidin,
Isn't it rather elementry knowledge that most people who accept evoloution also accept the Big Bang? Why is it so taboo for Hovind to assume that aswell?

 

[mac_philo]

That's not what freodin quoted him as saying, though.

Freodin quoted him as equivocating evolution with the big bang, a common creationist tactic to thicken the fog.

 

[God Fixation]

Who are you to say, that is his reason? I would do the same and certainly not for the reason you and Freodin are stating.

~My $.02

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by BigJon


I can pretty much back up everything i say on here with the bible, and I also do believe that the majority of christians truely are not. Believing in evolution would be enough to throw out any so called christian label.

You'd better call the Pope immediately, he's been known to say that he thinks it looks fairly plausible as an explanation, and he doesn't see any conflict between it and Christian doctrine. For that matter, if believing in evolution makes you not a Christian, *why is it not in the Nicene Creed*?

Why did Christ say "Whosoever believeth in me", not "Whosoever believeth in me and believes that I made everything snap-bang in six days flat"?

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by God Fixation


Hey, I was just on his site and it was talking about how to get that 250k, your findings would be looked over by a peer review, and if it passed then you would get it. So that says something, no? I mean it must be somewhat important to him if he made his 250k give-away encompass it...

Give me the liberty of selecting my peers, and peer-review is no threat.

 

[mac_philo]

Apparently I didn't make myself clear.

look, do you believe 2+2=4?
Do you believe pi=3.14...?

Yes, you believe both.

Do you believe 2+2=4 because pi=3.14...?

No, you don't, and that's the move that hovind makes.

Evolution is a biological theory, the big bang is a physical/cosmological theory. Even if every single person who believes in the big bang believes in evolution, that doesn't mean they are the same theory, and that doesn't mean they are related in the way hovind is mistakenly asserting.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by ZoneChaos


hehe.. death throws.... LOL Like what BigJon is saying is anything new...

Well, for instance, not that long ago (a mere blink of God's eye), people said exactly the same thing, only it was "heliocentrism", not "evolution". And believe me, if only the people who believe the sun moves around the earth are *truly* Christian, the church has been essentially dead for a very long time.

So, in one way, it's not new... but I think it's still *wrong*. I didn't even know you were allowed to post messages saying that other posters are "not really Christians" when they think they are.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by mac_philo
Apparently I didn't make myself clear.

look, do you believe 2+2=4?
Do you believe pi=3.14...?

Yes, you believe both.

Do you believe 2+2=4 because pi=3.14...?

No, you don't, and that's the move that hovind makes.

I think his move is a *little* more legitimate than that. *both* evolution and the big bang are theories which contradict young-earth creationism. Thus, if you accept one of them, it's much *easier* to accept the other.

BTW, I don't buy the categorization of big-bang as "out of nothing". Rather, I'd call it "before that, we have no idea".

 

[Freodin]

Originally posted by God Fixation
Who are you to say, that is his reason? I would do the same and certainly not for the reason you and Freodin are stating.

~My $.02

If you want proof for a scientific theory, and start by asking about topics that are not covered by this scientific theory... well, how would you call that?

 

[God Fixation]

Seebs,
I thought there was a verse that said that God made everything that is out of nothing....lemme go look for it....

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by God Fixation
Seebs,
I thought there was a verse that said that God made everything that is out of nothing....lemme go look for it....

Quite possible. However, I don't see any particular reason to believe that the creation story in the Bible is a literally true description of the facts exactly as they happened.

The big bang theory is quite consistent with the belief that everything is as it is today through the will of God.

 

[God Fixation]

Originally posted by Freodin


If you want proof for a scientific theory, and start by asking about topics that are not covered by this scientific theory... well, how would you call that?

He is trying to prove what he believes just as much if not more than he is trying to disprove all the other theories. How would you go about that? Duh, you shoot down anything that doesn't coincide with your findings. That doesn't mean you are lumping them together. If you can kill to birds with one stone, I say go for it!

 

[God Fixation]

AH!!! lol I know that verse exists, I remember reading it but alas it is evading my finding it. Well I think you know what I mean all the same.

The Big Bang, God said, and there it was.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by God Fixation
AH!!! lol I know that verse exists, I remember reading it but alas it is evading my finding it. Well I think you know what I mean all the same.

The Big Bang, God said, and there it was.

"Let there be light." Close enough for me, and I honestly can't see a better way to explain creation to people who barely have agriculture.

 

[God Fixation]