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Kent Hovind

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Billy the Kid, May 2, 2002.

  1. BigJon

    BigJon Insanely Huge

    71
    +1
    too bad the New Testament Church has been around longer than evolution.
     
  2. elephanticity

    elephanticity This appears beneath your name.

    449
    +3
    Hogwash? Better read up on the history of your religion, buddy. The articles of faith of the Nicene Creed established bedrock belief matters for the whole of Christendom. Many of the things you take for granted as valid, that are not in the bible, are taken from this Council's proclamations.
     
  3. mac_philo

    mac_philo Veteran

    +4
    Atheist
    I don't follow that reason. My grandfather has been around longer than me, and I'll certainly outlast him.

    My point merely is that your absolutism is as incompatible with the preservation of christianity as was the heliocentrism of the past. It's an endlessly repeated story in christianity, you're just behind the curve, since the rest of your religion has already accepted the inevitable.
     
  4. elephanticity

    elephanticity This appears beneath your name.

    449
    +3
    Hilarious. Evolution's been around for a lot longer than people...much less their beliefs, myths, and traditions....
     
  5. elephanticity

    elephanticity This appears beneath your name.

    449
    +3
    The Creed

    And for any interested atheists, agnostics, heathens, heretics, pagans, Universalists, evolutionists, lawyers or just poor-quality-Christians who are unaware of just what the faith really is, or cannot pick their testament out of a line-up, we present the Orthodox Niceaen Creed, basis of all True Christian Beliefs

    ...or so said the Council:

    Article 1: I believe in one God,

    Article 2: The Father, Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible and invisible,

    Article 3: I believe in One Lord, Jesus Christ, only begotten Son of God,

    Article 4: Eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made,

    Article 5: Being of one substance with the Father,

    (You have to know these things to be Emperor!)

    Article 6: By the Power of the Holy Spirit, He became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;

    Article 7: He suffered and was buried.

    Article 8: On the third day He appeared to rise again. He ascended into Heaven and sits on the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom shall have no end.

    Article 9: I believe in the Holy Spirit.

    Article 10: The Traditions of the Church are those followed by the Apostles, and should not be changed.
     
  6. BigJon

    BigJon Insanely Huge

    71
    +1
    ok the nicene creed isnt hog wash, but it has nothing to do with being or not being a christian. Basicly it states a few simple facts from the bible, however to be a christian it requires no creeds and or oaths or anything of the such.

    A Christian is in basic terms a sell out for the cause of Christ, spreading the gospel, to seek and to save those which are lost.

    Disagreeing with God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit or any of there teaching there for means your not a sell out and you cant be called a Christian

    I didnt say anything to the affect of not proving God, if you have questions and doubts then do the research, you'll find in the end God is right every time.
     
  7. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
    A Christian evolutionist disagrees with BigJon, not God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. Is agreement with BigJon also a criterion for membership in the body of Christ?
     
  8. mac_philo

    mac_philo Veteran

    +4
    Atheist
    BigJohn does not know the meaning of the word uncertainty, though he is certain that he does know it.
     
  9. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
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    To be fair, the *theory* of evolution hasn't... Although it's probably been around longer than BigJon's church, and they probably have at least one point of doctrine that's newer than the theory of evolution.
     
  10. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
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    Actually, it *defines* Christianity. Those who believe it are, by definition, Christians. Those who don't, aren't.
     
  11. mac_philo

    mac_philo Veteran

    +4
    Atheist
    On the other hand, Plato's 'Symposium' predates the old testament, and in that dialogue the character aristophanes proposes that humans originally had four legs, four arms, and two sets of reproductive organs.

    It's not evolution by natural selection, but in this context it is debatable.
     
  12. elephanticity

    elephanticity This appears beneath your name.

    449
    +3
    How about the theory of gravity? Is it more valid than Mormonism, just because it's older? Is the Mormon Church more valid than quantum theory, by virtue of age?
     
  13. elephanticity

    elephanticity This appears beneath your name.

    449
    +3
    God says bats are birds. That grasshoppers have 4 legs? That the moon provides it's own illumination? Still waiting for any research that bolsters those ideas.

    Anyway, the Nicene creed antedates (that means it is older than...) the bible as we know it today. There were a number of sects and churches that all considered themselves true christians. Even those that considered John The Baptist more important than Jesus, those that worshiped the Sun God (note: NOT the Son OF God), those that worshipped two Gods, one good and one evil....

    A lot of the bible books were CHOSEN based on agreement with the Creed, not the other way around. Some were not included in the Bible, as they did not support it. It shaped the Church you belong to, whatever church it may be.

    For a giggle, see some of the other doctrines that ALMOST made it to the creed, they made it as far as a full council vote:
    And remember, every doctrine here, even those with Pagan elements, had a chance of being part of your basic belief system.

    Article 1:
    *I believe in one God,
    *I believe in three Gods, which are:
    *I believe in many gods, including:

    Article 2:
    *The Father, Almighty, maker of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible and invisible,
    *The Unconquered Sun, Giver of Life and Victory,

    Article 1&2:
    I believe in two Gods, one Good, maker of all things unseen and invisible; one Evil, maker of all things visible and corrupt,

    Article 3:
    *I believe in One Lord, Jesus Christ, only begotten Son of God,
    *I believe in the true prophets of the light, including Jesus Christ,
    *I believe in One Lord, Jesus Christ, Foremost Prophet of God,
    *Who appeared as Our Lord, Jesus Christ,

    Article 4:
    *Eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten not made,
    *Begotten of the Father at His Incarnation,
    *Fully Divine and Truly God,
    *Whose spirit, the Divine Word, is eternally begotten of the Father,
    *A light from the True Light,
    *Created by the Father, Who named Him, "Son of God,"
    *Whose spirit, the Divine Word, is eternally begotten of the Father,

    Article 3 & 4:
    *I believe in One Lord, Jesus Christ, perfectly guided by the Word of God,


    Article 5:
    *Being of a similar substance to the Father,
    *Being of one substance with the Father,
    *Being of a different substance to the Father,
    *Being of a different substance but having the same will as the Father,

    Article 3 & 4 & 5:
    *I believe in John the Baptist, Foremost Prophet of God,

    Article 6:
    *Who appeared as a man, born of the Virgin Mary, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    *His divine Person became incarnate when His body was born of the Virgin Mary (who may not therefore, be called "Mother of God");
    *By the Power of the Holy Spirit, He became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
    *His Spirit became incarnate with the body and soul of a man, which were crucified under Pontius Pilate;

    Article 7:
    *With the Father, He suffered and was buried.
    *He suffered and was buried.
    *He suffered, died, and was buried.
    *He substituted the Wrong-doer upon the cross, and escaped death.
    *He appeared to suffer, die and be buried.

    Article 8:
    *On the third day He rose again. He ascended into Heaven and was reunited with the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom shall have no end.
    *On the third day, He rose again, in accordance with the Scriptures. He shall come again in glory, to restore Israel.
    *He is said to have risen on the third day, showing that the dead shall indeed be raised to life.
    *On the third day He appeared to rise again. He ascended into Heaven and sits on the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and His kingdom shall have no end.

    Article 9:
    *I believe in the Divine Wisdom, the Holy Spirit of the Light.
    *I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, with Whom He will be reunited.
    *I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son, and with them is worshipped and glorified.
    *I believe in the Holy Spirit.
    *I believe in the Holy Spirit, Chief Agent of God's Work.
    *I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father.

    Article 10:
    *The Dead shall be raised in Spirit, not in body.
    *The Church must withdraw entirely from the world.
    *The Church must abstain from all lusts of the flesh.
    *The Clergy should be celibate.
    *The Clergy, excluding Bishops, should be celibate.
    *Only those who have "Gnosis" are truly saved.
    *Those who lapse from the Faith must be re-baptized
    *The Traditions of the Church are those followed by the Apostles, and should not be changed.

    Really, if you're going to argue the errors in evolution, or the powers of the church, you need to read up a teeny bit more on either.....
     
  14. BigJon

    BigJon Insanely Huge

    71
    +1
    No, your tryin to prove something by knowing more church history, as it stands right now I attend a church thats is based on the New Testament Church as started by Jesus, which it hardly seems possible for this creed to predate the founder. However, this creed as written in the earlier post appears to provide no false information. This still doesnt mean this creed is needed, there is no real purpose to it other than to state the beliefs of those who wrote it, I dont live by such creeds, I try my best to follow God's Word which in written form is the Bible which was written by inspired men of God.

    as for evolution your right I dont know every stinkin nit pickin detail, I know the main points and thats enough to know its gibberish from people who dont want to believe theres a all powerful God, and for all those who say " I believe in God and evolution is right" well your all a bunch of hypocrites.
     
  15. elephanticity

    elephanticity This appears beneath your name.

    449
    +3
    Never mind what the **** you think of me for believing in evolution. I'll call Hovind an idiot, and i'm not fond of the politics of creationists, but watch what you're calling other xians, you self-centered, judgmental, name-dropping, history ignoring, literalist.

    Many people have accepted the fact that tho the moon looks like it is a flat circle, it is in fact spherical. They also accept the proofs that it is not a source of light, sunlight is reflected off of it. It does not roll across the top of a big dome covering Earth, the ocean and the fundament, but orbits the Earth, drifting in a space much much MUCH bigger than the writers of the Bible had any idea. Some of them call themselves Christians, even though the facts they accept do not match the writings of the Bible. Are they 'hypocrites?'
    Hypocrite means doing one thing and saying another. People that pray in church while wishing the service was over so they could get back home and drink a beer, that's a hypocrite.
    Taking science at face value, not rejecting something that does not fit into the cosmology you learn from Genesis, is not hypocrisy.

    Their beliefs may not match yours, or meet your incredibly conservative view of Christianity, but it is not hypocrisy.

    Just one question. Do you think the sun stays in a little house at night? Or are you a hypocrite....?
     
  16. Jerry Smith

    Jerry Smith Fish out of water

    +9
     
  17. BigJon

    BigJon Insanely Huge

    71
    +1
    ok #1 i dont know if you own a bible much less read and/or believe it, but its appearant you dont but I reserve the right to say I may be misled based on your statements,

    #2 if you do have one Read Genesis 1:1-2:1 then answer the following questions.
    A. Where in the world do you think it took millions of years?
    B. Where do you get the idea we came from apes?

    It's appearant on here people dont get the ideas of Christianity, Christians are sell outs for Christ, He is #1 in your life. People on here are like well yeah He is the way to heaven but he really didnt create the earth as he said....... thats the biggest pile of bull, thats hypocritical, you take the parts you like and make up the rest to suit your liking.

    "Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

    Take that to heart when making decisions on what you really believe.
     
  18. chickenman

    chickenman evil unamerican

    +6
    jesus didn't write genesis bigjon
     
  19. elephanticity

    elephanticity This appears beneath your name.

    449
    +3
    a. From the world, not from the bible
    b. Never mind how horribly that mis-states evolutionary theory, but: not from the bible


    So, the sun comes out of his little doggie house, runs around the earth from one end to the other, and the sun shines everywhere....

    Do you literally believe that? The holy hut, and the sun running from the end of heaven to the other end of heaven?
    Is that the idea of christianity and selling out to Christ?

    And why is a pagan the one defending christian evolutionists here? A little help?
     
  20. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,462
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    Because BigJon said we're *not* actually Christians, and some of us are too busy praying for a clear, calm, response to actually post anything.

    Also, because you're doing a perfectly good job. :)
     
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