JW JWs and Christians - why the divide?

[ToBeLoved]

Well, being that the LDS threads dominate, I am glad to have had some interaction on this thread in my short time here. I don't prefer the political/random stuff, and do prefer to engage in some more meaningful dialogue. Thank you for the feedback, I can see that that has probably been the case in the past. Perhaps it is something they will revisit in the future. Not everyone wants to engage in conversion. Some of us just like to chat and enjoy our similarities.

I will come visit you. Start a conversation with me. We can be friends but promise not to try to convert each other, if that works.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

I will come visit you. Start a conversation with me. We can be friends but promise not to try to convert each other, if that works.

That would be very cool. Ok, I will try to figure that out. And we will stay within the parameters of mutual respect I'm sure we both desire. Thank you!

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

I will come visit you. Start a conversation with me. We can be friends but promise not to try to convert each other, if that works.

Ok, I'm apparently not allowed to start a conversation with you either, so...yeah...

 

[Open Heart]

Jehovah Witness based thread designation. There is one for LDS/Mormons and I think Islaam. Although I may be wrong. I know LDS and JW have them.

Does it mean that only JW opinions can be spoken?

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

Does it mean that only JW opinions can be spoken?

If I'm not mistaken, this thread is primarily about "debating" JWs. So JWs need to essentially wait for someone to bring something up before they can respond.

 

[Open Heart]

If I'm not mistaken, this thread is primarily about "debating" JWs. So JWs need to essentially wait for someone to bring something up before they can respond.

Oh, okay!

 

[Razare]

Such as?

- Sheol vs. Eternal judgement. They have no concept of what Sheol actually is because they're stuck on Ecclesiastes too much. But the differentiation between Sheol vs. Eternal Judgement is required to understand scripture. A lot of Christians just say, "Hell" as if it were all 1 thing, but it's not.

- There is a resurrection at the end of a literal tribulation period. A lot of denoms believe Revelation is symbolic only. The truth is Revelation is describing a real event which will take place on Earth.

- They are aware that there is a 2nd Resurrection in Revelation. Revelation 20:13... Revelation describes a 1st ressurection for those who will not taste eternal judgement (not the Christian church if you are a pre-trib adherent like me)... this 1st resurrection is then contrasted against the 2nd resurrection in Revelation 20:13.

JW would make great Christians if we could convince them on a few points.

- Jesus is God
- All Christians are the bride of Christ, the 144k are not the bride of Christ. (A lot of Christian denoms believe along with the JW that the 144k are the bride of Christ, because they say the 144k are symbolic, and they are wrong.)
- There is an immediate afterlife: Sheol & Heaven
- The resurrection is similar to the you who died. JW believe that man's soul is contained only in the body, and that the spirit is some other alien thing. They don't realize that spirit, soul, and body work in unison, and that when you die right now, aspects of your soul go into an afterlife. These aspects of the soul that remain, will be present at any resurrection of the dead.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Wonderful thing is if any JW are reading this and want to be convinced of these points, I am certainly available to do it from scripture. The key requirement to be convinced goes as follows:

1 - You care about truth above religion, and you care about what scripture says, above what opinions of men state.
2 - You can understand for yourself what truth is from scripture, meaning, if you can see a theme repeated several times in scripture, you will take that testimony above other commentaries which use less-sure footing on scripture. The truth is we can make scripture say anything if we string verses together a certain way and put an interpretation on it. I have done it myself even and then later repented. Arriving at the truth, though, requires we are willing to put that aside and ask ourselves what does it really say, independent of what all other men on Earth tell us. Accepting only what men say, when it is the surest interpretation according to what Holy Spirit and scriptures tell us.

Likely the most daunting issue for a JW is that Jesus is God. But I would say that I have a unique understanding of the trinity that is different from Christianity. I teach the trinity from scripture, going back to Genesis, and using other symbolism that God provides. And the reality of the trinity from scripture is not how the trinity is taught in most Christian circles.

 

[Albion]

IMHO, your proposal is damaged by the absence of any mention of all the JW teachings that are important although perhaps not fundamental--having their own version of the Bible, the 'no blood transfusions,' the constant and erroneous date setting for the second coming of Christ, no acknowledgment of one's own birthday or Christmas, the hostility towards the nation's flag, and so on. If the religion had remained a reflection of what Charles Taze Russell taught, this would be a different discussion. But when we chart all the changes added by his successors, well, you see where that led.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Does it mean that only JW opinions can be spoken?

I think and I'm not sure, but since this is outreach I think it is for Christians and the designated faith. Like JW would be Christians learning more about or asking questions.

I think it is for conversation between the faith group and Christians. But check with the mod's or the SOP for details.

 

[ToBeLoved]

IMHO, your proposal is damaged by the absence of any mention of all the JW teachings that are important although perhaps not fundamental--having their own version of the Bible, the 'no blood transfusions,' the constant and erroneous date setting for the second coming of Christ, no acknowledgment of one's own birthday or Christmas, the hostility towards the nation's flag, and so on.

I think the own version of the Bible would make it very, very hard. Because there would be no common ground if the Bible was different. Albion do you know what the translation is called that JW use?

I know from experience on the LDS faith designation that the 5 other books they use so far expands what is in the Bible that it is like two different worlds. Almost literally. And they are hostile to Christians because they believe that their mission is to save us because they have 'further' revelation from God, but it is so different from the Bible that there is no way that it is any 'further' revelation because there is not any common ground even in the OT as they have written more about Moses, Abraham, Noah. It's like you fall down the hole in Alice in Wonderland and it is a different world completely. It is not for the faint of heart. I have the bruises.

And they dabble in the gnostic texts and think the Bible can be true 'so long as it's translated correctly' which means there is nothing they won't change.

 

[Razare]

having their own version of the Bible, the 'no blood transfusions,' the constant and erroneous date setting for the second coming of Christ, no acknowledgment of one's own birthday or Christmas, the hostility towards the nation's flag, and so on.

Religious hypocrite (Christian) vs. religious hypocrite (JW) ?

I'll sit it out, to be honest. Stupid stuff like blood transfusions, the spirit of God fixes that stuff when you get the fundamentals correct, such as believing Jesus is God, and receiving the Holy Spirit.

A lot of JW are not saved. This is a key point. They have to arrive at salvation before all the strongholds in their thinking will be cast down. I think I did meet one who was saved, even... seemed like he was at least. They just got a lot of deception, but God looks at the heart.

 

[Razare]

This is their translation:
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/

I suggest reading it, just to get a right frame of mind in case you ever minister to one. I personally would have no problem teaching a JW out of their translation.

 

[Albion]

I think the own version of the Bible would make it very, very hard. Because there would be no common ground if the Bible was different. Albion do you know what the translation is called that JW use?

It's the New World Translation (NWT). It's customarily bound in a green cover and you can find copies in a lot of Salvation Army or Goodwill Industries-type thrift stores. The main issue with the NWT is not that there are additions to scripture but that wording has been changed to fit with JW teachings, such as in John 1 where "the Word was God" is rendered as "the Word was a god."

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is their translation:
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/

I suggest reading it, just to get a right frame of mind in case you ever minister to one. I personally would have no problem teaching a JW out of their translation.

Thanks for the link. I'll bookmark it in my browser.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

IMHO, your proposal is damaged by the absence of any mention of all the JW teachings that are important although perhaps not fundamental--having their own version of the Bible, the 'no blood transfusions,' the constant and erroneous date setting for the second coming of Christ, no acknowledgment of one's own birthday or Christmas, the hostility towards the nation's flag, and so on. If the religion had remained a reflection of what Charles Taze Russell taught, this would be a different discussion. But when we chart all the changes added by his successors, well, you see where that led.

All bibles are a version of the bible. Witnesses chose to translate theirs from the earliest manuscripts and original languages rather than remain mired in tradition and archaic English. But the message is certainly still there, as is the widely accepted transliteration of YHWH. A bit more controversial is the use of Jehovah where kyrios was used in the NT, but even that doesn't change message.

Do some research on bloodless medicine and better outcomes for those who have surgery without transfusions compared with those who do. It really is fascinating.

Erroneous date setting is certainly a source of some embarrassment. I've always chalked it up to overeagerness, because they are not prophets and therefore are not infallible.

Ecc 7:1 says that the day of death is better than the day of ones birth. Being born is a beautiful thing, but you personally didn't do anything to bring it about. Your impact as a person is calculated later, as a sum of your life's work and condition of your heart. Jesus' birth was a miracle, but he could have chosen to not follow through the way he did. It was his world history changing ministry and loving sacrifice that define him.

Respect for ones country cannot supersede allegiance to God. It is a theme throughout the bible, and JWs simply try to follow that example.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Off to work now, so I won't be able to answer again till much later if you respond.

 

[Albion]

All bibles are a version of the bible.

You may say that, but when a translation is created expressly in order to get around parts that do not verify the church's teachings, you have something other than just another translation.

Respect for ones country cannot supersede allegiance to God. It is a theme throughout the bible, and JWs simply try to follow that example.

The motivation or reasoning weren't at issue. The practice of it was.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

It's the New World Translation (NWT). It's customarily bound in a green cover and you can find copies in a lot of Salvation Army or Goodwill Industries-type thrift stores. The main issue with the NWT is not that there are additions to scripture but that wording has been changed to fit with JW teachings, such as in John 1 where "the Word was God" is rendered as "the Word was a god."

Koine Greek uses two versions of God in that 3 part phrase: Theon = the God; and Theos = God). Koine Greek lacked articles like "a". It would have been no trouble at all for the writer to just say "Theon" again, but he didn't. (Sorry, I don't know how to use accents on my keyboard).

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

You may say that, but when a translation is created expressly in order to get around parts that do not verify the church's teachings, you have something other than just another translation.

The motivation or reasoning weren't at issue. The practice of it was.

Maybe you could give me some examples and I'll check it out later.

Why doesn't the practice of it make sense in light of the reasoning, then?

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

- Sheol vs. Eternal judgement. They have no concept of what Sheol actually is because they're stuck on Ecclesiastes too much. But the differentiation between Sheol vs. Eternal Judgement is required to understand scripture. A lot of Christians just say, "Hell" as if it were all 1 thing, but it's not.

- There is a resurrection at the end of a literal tribulation period. A lot of denoms believe Revelation is symbolic only. The truth is Revelation is describing a real event which will take place on Earth.

- They are aware that there is a 2nd Resurrection in Revelation. Revelation 20:13... Revelation describes a 1st ressurection for those who will not taste eternal judgement (not the Christian church if you are a pre-trib adherent like me)... this 1st resurrection is then contrasted against the 2nd resurrection in Revelation 20:13.

JW would make great Christians if we could convince them on a few points.

- Jesus is God
- All Christians are the bride of Christ, the 144k are not the bride of Christ. (A lot of Christian denoms believe along with the JW that the 144k are the bride of Christ, because they say the 144k are symbolic, and they are wrong.)
- There is an immediate afterlife: Sheol & Heaven
- The resurrection is similar to the you who died. JW believe that man's soul is contained only in the body, and that the spirit is some other alien thing. They don't realize that spirit, soul, and body work in unison, and that when you die right now, aspects of your soul go into an afterlife. These aspects of the soul that remain, will be present at any resurrection of the dead.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Wonderful thing is if any JW are reading this and want to be convinced of these points, I am certainly available to do it from scripture. The key requirement to be convinced goes as follows:

1 - You care about truth above religion, and you care about what scripture says, above what opinions of men state.
2 - You can understand for yourself what truth is from scripture, meaning, if you can see a theme repeated several times in scripture, you will take that testimony above other commentaries which use less-sure footing on scripture. The truth is we can make scripture say anything if we string verses together a certain way and put an interpretation on it. I have done it myself even and then later repented. Arriving at the truth, though, requires we are willing to put that aside and ask ourselves what does it really say, independent of what all other men on Earth tell us. Accepting only what men say, when it is the surest interpretation according to what Holy Spirit and scriptures tell us.

Likely the most daunting issue for a JW is that Jesus is God. But I would say that I have a unique understanding of the trinity that is different from Christianity. I teach the trinity from scripture, going back to Genesis, and using other symbolism that God provides. And the reality of the trinity from scripture is not how the trinity is taught in most Christian circles.

There is so much here that I wouldn't mind discussing with you further, but I have to wait till I'm home later. Thanks for the well thought out post though.

 

[Job8]

Do all JWs believe that Jesus Christ was a created being aka Michael the archangel?

That's correct.

Can one be a JW but still accept Jesus Christ as God ?

Then he or she would no longer be a JW.

yet Mormons and JWs are so close and they have a tight knit community

Cultists are generally close-knit. And generally wonderful people. But that is not the criterion for determining the validity of their beliefs.