JW JWs and Christians - why the divide?

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Outlaw, we disagree on our interpretation of Ego eimi. I agree that this difference is significant.

All I'll say here is that you may benefit from reading John 1:27 carefully.

I don't want to violate any rules by posting less common interpretations here, but you're welcome to send me a private message to discuss this translation if you feel comfortable doing so.
 
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outlawState

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Outlaw, we disagree on our interpretation of Ego eimi. I agree that this difference is significant.

All I'll say here is that you may benefit from reading John 1:27 carefully.

I don't want to violate any rules by posting less common interpretations here, but you're welcome to send me a private message to discuss this translation if you feel comfortable doing so.
It's a question of grammar not interpretation. I should imagine that grammar discussion is allowed. What have you to say on it?
 
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It's a question of grammar not interpretation. I should imagine that grammar discussion is allowed. What have you to say on it?
Well, let's read the verses in context. I just went with the first translation google came up with (NASB), if you have a specifically preferred translation, feel free to post yours:

John 8:34-59 (Underlines added)
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word [j]has no place in you. 38 I speak the things which I have seen [k]with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but [l]He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand [m]what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks [n]a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of [o]lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

48 The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced [p]to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham [q]was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus [r]hid Himself and went out of the temple.


So, one possible interpretation is the direct translation... He claimed to know that Abraham rejoiced, they said it was impossible for him to know that as he was not old enough to have seen Abraham. Jesus responded that "Before Abraham was born, "ego eimi." The basic greek phrase of "to be" in the first person singular... simply "I have been since before Abraham."

This is a direct conversation, which fits contextually with the conversation.

The other interpretation sees the phrase "Ego Eimi" (Which John the Baptist also uses in John 1:27: "He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”) as translatable to "I am" and drawing a reference to God speaking in the burning bush, using the phrase "ehyeh asher ehyeh" (when Moses asked who he was, God responded "I shall prove to be who I shall prove to be." which can be paraphrased simply as "Trust me... you'll see." Ehyeh would not be God's NAME, but rather a statement that he is the God who IS... he would prove himself to be a real God capable of action, unlike the powerless ideas egyptians worshipped. Especially considering the context of Jesus repeating himself that he is only serving his Father, who sent him with lessons learned from his father, seeking only the glory of his Father, not his own... and that any glory he would accept would be restricted to the glory his Father chooses to bestow... it seems to be completely out of left field to translate "Before Abraham was, YHWH."
 
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As for the hell idea, the primary basis for the JW belief is that God stated that the soul that sins will die. Period. The wages of sin is "death." Period.

I understand that there are verses using terms like gehenna, sheol, and hades that CAN reasonably be interpreted to mean something beyond their literal translation... but adding supernatural torment to the literal translation doesn't seem to fit the context of scripture.

Note the reason Martin Luther broke off from catholicism.
 
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outlawState

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Well, let's read the verses in context ... it seems to be completely out of left field to translate "Before Abraham was, YHWH."
YHWH is not the same as Ego eimi so that is a straw man argument, but even if it was, so what?

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Jhn 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

The Word and the Father are one God and so YHWH does not denote the Father to the exclusion of the Word, but the oneness and permanence of the godhead.

I cannot accept the strained words you put on Ego eimi. Do you not understand how silly "I have been since before" is, just to justify your man-invented Arian doctrine?
 
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Outlaw, while I wouldn't mind a more overarching trinitarian debate, I'm not too familiar with the extent of my limitations on this forum at the moment, so I don't want to risk overstepping them.

Perhaps we can re-approach the issue with these three questions. I'm curious about your views of all 3: (Question 1)- How do you interpret John the Baptist's words at John 1:27: "He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

Notice the same "ego eimi" phrase, similarly translated as "I am." (Question 2)- Do you believe John the Baptist is also God (or claiming to be)? Or, is this a simple part of the sentence where he describes his existence in the first person, singular context?

I agree "I have been" isn't a direct translation because the tenses of greek and english don't perfectly match up. Without specifically knowing it was Jesus talking, or any of the context, (Question 3)- how would you simply, literally translate "(prior to some event) ego eimi?" One could say "Before X, I was." or "I have been" or "I continue to exist" .... "I AM" is a bit of an awkward translation because the person isn't CURRENTLY before the situation in the past... only that they were around since before that event happened. I.e. I can't say "I am before 1990." But I can say "I was alive before 1990." or "Before 1990, I have been."
 
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outlawState

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I can't say "I am before 1990."
True, but God can. It is because of your insistence that Jesus is not divine that you choose to misrender "ego eimi" as other than "I am." If Jesus came from YHWH, then "I am" is sensible. If he did not, "I am" is not sensible. The words are "I am" so it contradicts your pretension that Jesus is not of YHWH.

Jhn 8:59 makes it perfectly clear that the Jews regarded Jesus as referring to himself as the son of God.

As for what John the Baptist said, how is it relevant?
 
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robert skynner

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Well, let's read the verses in context. I just went with the first translation google came up with (NASB), if you have a specifically preferred translation, feel free to post yours:

John 8:34-59 (Underlines added)
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word [j]has no place in you. 38 I speak the things which I have seen [k]with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but [l]He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand [m]what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks [n]a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of [o]lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”

48 The Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death.’ 53 Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’; 55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced [p]to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham [q]was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus [r]hid Himself and went out of the temple.


So, one possible interpretation is the direct translation... He claimed to know that Abraham rejoiced, they said it was impossible for him to know that as he was not old enough to have seen Abraham. Jesus responded that "Before Abraham was born, "ego eimi." The basic greek phrase of "to be" in the first person singular... simply "I have been since before Abraham."

This is a direct conversation, which fits contextually with the conversation.

The other interpretation sees the phrase "Ego Eimi" (Which John the Baptist also uses in John 1:27: "He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”) as translatable to "I am" and drawing a reference to God speaking in the burning bush, using the phrase "ehyeh asher ehyeh" (when Moses asked who he was, God responded "I shall prove to be who I shall prove to be." which can be paraphrased simply as "Trust me... you'll see." Ehyeh would not be God's NAME, but rather a statement that he is the God who IS... he would prove himself to be a real God capable of action, unlike the powerless ideas egyptians worshipped. Especially considering the context of Jesus repeating himself that he is only serving his Father, who sent him with lessons learned from his father, seeking only the glory of his Father, not his own... and that any glory he would accept would be restricted to the glory his Father chooses to bestow... it seems to be completely out of left field to translate "Before Abraham was, YHWH."

Hello Gregorian. I have three old JW books, the NWT NT 1950 edition as well as the 1969 and 1985 KIT Kingdom Interlinear Translations. At John 8:58 these three books each explain ego eimi as I have been, but each book gives a different Greek tense for ego eimi at this verse, each of which is completely wrong. Would you please explain why the explanation of the Greek tenses differs between these three JW books?
 
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True, but God can. It is because of your insistence that Jesus is not divine that you choose to misrender "ego eimi" as other than "I am." If Jesus came from YHWH, then "I am" is sensible. If he did not, "I am" is not sensible. The words are "I am" so it contradicts your pretension that Jesus is not of YHWH.

Jhn 8:59 makes it perfectly clear that the Jews regarded Jesus as referring to himself as the son of God.

As for what John the Baptist said, how is it relevant?

Because john the baptist used the same exact "ego eimi" expression when he said "He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.”

Do you believe John the baptist is also God because of his use of "I am?" Or, how do you read what John was saying there?

I agree that those Jesus was speaking to attacked Jesus afterward.... because if you look at the context of the whole conversation, he was laying into them pretty hard, and raising questions about their deeply held beliefs... the attack makes perfect sense with him claiming to be older than his human form without an implication of being God himself.
 
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Robert, I don't have those versions. Is the original language listed differently, or is it just explained differently because a different person is analysing the text?

The problem is that translations are hard to get perfect because comparable words in different languages can have slightlybdifferent contexts. Sentence structures are different, tenses and genders don't translate well sometimes. I would encourage people to look at a few different translations, and break out their own dictionarys to get a better grasp of the full story of the original words.

Would you want to post the differences you see and I can try to get a better grasp of it?
 
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FireDragon76

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BTW, the idea that Luther just left Rome over the issue of indulgences is a bit of Protestant political mythmaking, and even more a myth is that he desired the creation of a whole new religion based on "the Bible alone" (I don't recall reading him ever using that phrase). Luther didn't leave willingly, he was kicked out for threatening the steady supply of money by creating a controversy with his 95 Theses. If the issue were not the sale of indulgences, but were something else, it probably would have resulted in a real academic debate. But mostly Rome questioned his right to even challenge the teaching authority of the bishops and cardinals.

The separation from Rome seems not an easy thing for Luther, based on what I've read. He was still speaking somewhat with deference towards the Pope some time after he was excommunicated.
 
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