JW question?

[Aryeh Jay]

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[4x4toy]

I see the one God (Father YHWH). I see the power of YHWH (the Holy Spirit) and I see the Son. That is two "persons" and one God.

John 16:13 . That's one, who's the other one?

 

[juvenissun]

How many children do you think a parent is capable of loving? I'm up to three at the moment and having more doesn't make me love the others any left. I have quite a few orthodox jewish friends that have 10+ kids and a growing number of grandkids... no signs of the capacity for love reducing. What makes you think a larger number (however many billion people have lived over the years) makes love less believable?

There is no need to argue about this. The more children one has, the less love each child would get.

Jehovah has billions to love. I don't think He can do the job even remotely well. If I pray to Him, I am sure I will have a long long line to wait.

This is NOT a good theological system.

 

[gadar perets]

John 16:13 . That's one, who's the other one?

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:24). He can take a portion of Himself and put it in others. It is not another person. It is still the Father. The Father is one person/being. The Son is a second person/being. The Holy Spirit is NOT a third person. The Father is the only true God (John 17:3). The Son is NOT the only true God (John 17:3). The Holy Spirit is part of the only true God. It is His power and influence over all.

 

[4x4toy]

John 14:26 .. Jesus calls the Holy Spirit separate from the Father and the Son .. You can see where I'm coming from , right ?

 

[gadar perets]

John 14:26 .. Jesus calls the Holy Spirit separate from the Father and the Son .. You can see where I'm coming from , right ?

Yes, I see where you are coming from. Do the words "whom" and "he" refer to a masculine person separate from the Father or do they refer to a “thing” that would require the pronouns "which" and “it”?” When “holy spirit” is referring to the power of God in action or God’s gift, it is properly an “it.”

In Hebrew, “spirit” is feminine and must have feminine pronouns, while in Greek, “spirit” is neuter and takes neuter pronouns. Did the Holy Spirit change gender from the OT to the NT to become a "he"?

I believe the correct translation would be;

"But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, which the Father will send in my name, it shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
​

 

[4x4toy]

Yes, I see where you are coming from. Do the words "whom" and "he" refer to a masculine person separate from the Father or do they refer to a “thing” that would require the pronouns "which" and “it”?” When “holy spirit” is referring to the power of God in action or God’s gift, it is properly an “it.”

In Hebrew, “spirit” is feminine and must have feminine pronouns, while in Greek, “spirit” is neuter and takes neuter pronouns. Did the Holy Spirit change gender from the OT to the NT to become a "he"?

I believe the correct translation would be;

"But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, which the Father will send in my name, it shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
​

 

[gadar perets]

Laughing does not help either one of us come to a knowledge of the truth. If you think I'm wrong, then present your case.

 

[4x4toy]

I don't commune with an it or a her, but like the Word of God says, You ?

 

[gadar perets]

I don't commune with an it or a her, but like the Word of God says, You ?

I commune with the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit which is the thing that makes such communion possible. If the Holy Spirit is a third person and you commune with him because he lives in you, then how do you commune with the Father and the Son?

 

[cloudyday2]

@The Gregorian , one thing that bothers me about JWs is the shunning policy and the lemur-like behavior of many JWs. Sometimes I have considered becoming a JW, because I consider their beliefs to be the closest to Jesus, but I don't like being told what to think and do. I'm sure the shunning policy helps to keep people from exiting the JW faith, but it is wrong - people should be free to lose faith without worrying about friends and family shunning them.

EDIT: Also another attractive feature of JWs for me is their good behavior. I can see that a certain level of discipline is required to create good behavior in ordinary people. The shunning is too much though.

 

[4x4toy]

I commune with the Father and the Son through the Holy Spirit which is the thing that makes such communion possible. If the Holy Spirit is a third person and you commune with him because he lives in you, then how do you commune with the Father and the Son?

Holy Spirit is a nice guy .

 

[gadar perets]

Holy Spirit is a nice guy .

I guess that means you do not have a Scriptural defense.

 

[4x4toy]

I guess that means you do not have a Scriptural defense.

1 Corinthians 14:32 .. What does this mean to you

 

[gadar perets]

1 Corinthians 14:32 .. What does this mean to you

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.​

Based on the context, if anyone is led to prophesy via the gift of prophecy, they are to do it in an orderly fashion. Since it is the prophet that rules over the spirit of prophecy (vs.32), they are to exercise self control over their gift and not just blurt out the prophecy when someone else is prophesying.

Do you have a different explanation?

 

[tansy]

Thank you for respectful perspective!

Was it God's sin in the garden of eden that started all this suffering? JWs would point to the fact that a perfect man with no excuse for sin... still chose to. The wages of sin is death, so each sinner can pay the price of their own sin when they die, but humanity would be doomed because everyone would start out corrupted by sin, therefore no one would have a hope to live as God intended. Adam's sin is the leftover balance no imperfect person could ever pay for, so all that would technically be needed would be the sacrifice of a human not touched by sin from the beginning. The problem is a person corrupted by sin can not yield a sinless offspring, which is why Jesus had to be sent, to live a life without sin, and sacrifice that sinless life to pay our debt.

Besides, is it really easier to consider the concept that God Himself is capable of dying? And if he could, that the universe would continue on fine without him?

I know that's not going to "convince you" of anything, and that's not my intent because it's not up to me to change your mind... but does that help you understand why we hold our perspective?

Thank you for your reply and I do try to be respectful (though sometimes one can inadvertently upset people).

I agree with your first paragraph. But the second one about would it be easier to consider the concept that God Himself is capable of dying, well, I don't believe God is capable of dying. I know it's a difficult concept to understand how Jesus could become on the one hand, human, but also be God. As a human he could die, but through his sacrifice of laying down his life, he overcame death (and sin).
And I believe that because it was the Holy Spirit who conceived him, then he was born without sin...and not created.

I do see your perspective, and like you, I wouldn't think that I could convince anyone of anything - that has to be the Holy Spirit who brings people (gradually) into all truth.

 

[tansy]

John 1:14 And the word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Yeshua Messiah our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:​

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about those verses. What I'm not sure about is (and I'm not certain that anyone really knows) how in the above senses, Jesus was 'made' but also was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
I mean the whole concept in itself obviously seems crazy to us...normally one needs the man's sperm and the woman's egg. According to scripture, no sperm was involved.
Did the Holy Spirit somehow impregnate Mary's egg? If so, would Jesus have born corrupted? I can't see that he would have been born corrupted. It does raise many questions, but I can only go by what scripture would seem to say overall...and obviously different people interpret or understand some things differently.
That is one reason it's good to have these kinds of discussions because different people can bring their extra knowledge (whether spiritual, translational, historical, cultural etc) to other's attention.

 

[tansy]

Yes, I see where you are coming from. Do the words "whom" and "he" refer to a masculine person separate from the Father or do they refer to a “thing” that would require the pronouns "which" and “it”?” When “holy spirit” is referring to the power of God in action or God’s gift, it is properly an “it.”

In Hebrew, “spirit” is feminine and must have feminine pronouns, while in Greek, “spirit” is neuter and takes neuter pronouns. Did the Holy Spirit change gender from the OT to the NT to become a "he"?

I believe the correct translation would be;

"But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, which the Father will send in my name, it shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
​

I don't think God is masculine or feminine, nor maybe even neuter. I don't think it necessarily matters if the word 'spirit' is a masculine, femine or neuter word in whichever language.
I don't know anything about Hebrew or ancient Greek, but I do know that in French for instance the word 'the mouse' is 'la souris'...feminine. And even if the mouse is male, it is still referred to as 'la' souris not 'le' souris. Because in some languages, it is the actual word that is masculine, feminine or neuter, as distinct from the actual gender of the thing or person.
Girl in German is 'dass Madchen' - neuter. It is the 'chen' on the end that makes it neuter, not the gender of the girl.

Frankly I see masculine and femine attributes in God the Father and the Holy Spirit. I tend to think of Jesus as being male, because he came to earth as a man.

 

[gadar perets]

Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about those verses. What I'm not sure about is (and I'm not certain that anyone really knows) how in the above senses, Jesus was 'made' but also was conceived by the Holy Spirit.
I mean the whole concept in itself obviously seems crazy to us...normally one needs the man's sperm and the woman's egg. According to scripture, no sperm was involved.
Did the Holy Spirit somehow impregnate Mary's egg? If so, would Jesus have born corrupted? I can't see that he would have been born corrupted. It does raise many questions, but I can only go by what scripture would seem to say overall...and obviously different people interpret or understand some things differently.
That is one reason it's good to have these kinds of discussions because different people can bring their extra knowledge (whether spiritual, translational, historical, cultural etc) to other's attention.

Mary's egg had to be utilized or she would only be a surrogate mother and Yeshua would not be of the seed of David. The Holy Spirit did not have sex with Mary. The Holy Spirit is the power of the Father. He spoke and the egg was miraculously fertilized by His Holy Spirit power. The word/logos (YHWH's spoken words and thoughts) was "made" flesh.

 

[gadar perets]

I don't think it necessarily matters if the word 'spirit' is a masculine, femine or neuter word in whichever language.

I agree. However, it matters how it is translated. Obviously the translation "he" was chosen to support the false trinity doctrine. They needed a third person and made the Holy Spirit into that person. Making the Holy Spirit a person leads to many questions and conflicts.

1) If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a serparate person from them, then who is Messiah's father?
2) Why doesn't the Apostle Paul invoke the Holy Spirit in the introduction to his epistles as he does the Father and the Son? This would seem rather offensive to the Holy Spirit if he were a co-equal person.
3) Why is the Holy Spirit never depicted as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? (Acts 7:55-56; Colossians 3:1; and Revelation 5:1-9; 7:10). We do not even see an empty throne for him.
4) 1 Corinthians 11:3 gives a hierarchy in which women, men, and Messiah each have a head with Elohim (Yahweh the Father) being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?
5) Ephesians 5:5 tells us the "kingdom" that believers shall inherit is "of Messiah" and "of Elohim." Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?
6) The Father and the Son converse with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit?