JW question?

4x4toy

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1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.​

Based on the context, if anyone is led to prophesy via the gift of prophecy, they are to do it in an orderly fashion. Since it is the prophet that rules over the spirit of prophecy (vs.32), they are to exercise self control over their gift and not just blurt out the prophecy when someone else is prophesying.

Do you have a different explanation?

Have you ever seen or experienced this ? This is why the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same God manifested in harmony, same God ..God the Father has appointed the Son Lord over all who earned it being faithful in the flesh, but also the Holy Spirit as our personal access to worship in spirit and truth. IMO it is a perfect plan for us by God. Jesus remains perfectly humble yet all powerful as God the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus in his glory to us .. And you are correct, God the Father sent the Holy Spirit to over shadow the Virgin yet God the Father call the Son his only begotten . Same one God . I can't understand why folks can't realize the genius of God in this ..
 
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tansy

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I agree. However, it matters how it is translated. Obviously the translation "he" was chosen to support the false trinity doctrine. They needed a third person and made the Holy Spirit into that person. Making the Holy Spirit a person leads to many questions and conflicts.

Well, I can't say it's led to many questions and conflicts for me, but that's just me :)

1) If the Father is separate from the Son, and the Holy Spirit is a serparate person from them, then who is Messiah's father?

They are not separate in the sense that they are say, a Landrover, a mini and a Jaguar all parked on the same road. They are ONE. To me a good analogy is what someone said in church years ago. All water is H20, however it comes in different forms - ice, liquid and gas...but it is all the same essence.
Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, if God the Father Is Jesus's father, then could that mean in a sense that the Holy Spirit is his mother? Not saying He is, but I don't really think we can necessarily see it in quite the same terms as we do human reproduction, quite honestly.
Whichever way you look at it, your way or another way, it is really beyond total human comprehension.

Years ago, I had a 'vision' I suppose you could call it, where Jesus was carrying me all across this vast stony plain, then I found myself on top of a very, very high cliff looking down across the plain. Beside me was standing in the form of a man, the Holy Spirit. And His power was just blowing like a very strong wind all around us and all across the plain (to cut the vision short).
How I knew the one person was Jesus and the other The Holy Spirit is difficult to say precisely, but as many others have testified, when they have these experiences, they just 'know' that it's God the Father or Jesus or the Spirit.



2) Why doesn't the Apostle Paul invoke the Holy Spirit in the introduction to his epistles as he does the Father and the Son? This would seem rather offensive to the Holy Spirit if he were a co-equal person.

No, it's not necessarily offensive, as the Holy Spirit points the way to Jesus, who is the way to the Father. In a sense, He is in the background. There is an argument I believe between some Cristians as to whther it is permissable to baptise just in the Name of Jesus or does it have to be in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But actually (I beieve) it comes to the same thing, because they are all one in spirit

3) Why is the Holy Spirit never depicted as sitting on or standing near the throne as are the Father and the Son? (Acts 7:55-56; Colossians 3:1; and Revelation 5:1-9; 7:10). We do not even see an empty throne for him.

Haven't much idea about that I'm afraid :). But perhaps again, it is because in a sense he is performing a different function (but no less equal or important).
Sometimes I think of the Father as being in front of me, Jesus as being beside me, and the Spirit as being behind me...kind of like the Spirit is making sure I come to or 'keep up' with Jesus (like a sheepdog LOL), and Jesus is taking me along the path to the Father. Not saying this is scriptural exactly, but just the way it sometimes seems to me. More complex than that of course.

4) 1 Corinthians 11:3 gives a hierarchy in which women, men, and Messiah each have a head with Elohim (Yahweh the Father) being the uppermost in authority. Where is the Holy Spirit?
I think the Holy Spirit has authority, but maybe he exercises it in a slightly different way from the others, like I said above, it seems almost like he does things from 'behind'. I mean, supposing your trying to turn around/run away from the Father or Jesus (so to speak) there you will find the authoritative Spirit reminding/advising you to get back on track.
It's hard to explain quite what I mean ( I don't have grand theological words to put things over, I certainly don't have complete understanding).
I'm rather hoping someone else with more insight or knowledge might give you better answers than I can. All I know is that I have in effect a relationship with all of them (in one), it's just a slightly different relationship in some way

5) Ephesians 5:5 tells us the "kingdom" that believers shall inherit is "of Messiah" and "of Elohim." Why is the Kingdom not of the Holy Spirit as well?

I should think that it is of the Holy Spirit as well, and that that would be taken for granted from the whole thrust of scripture.


6) The Father and the Son converse with each other, but why don't they converse with the Holy Spirit?

They probably do, we just aren't directly given the information, except perhaps through inference, again from the whole thrust of scripture.
Perhaps someone else can shed more light on this?
 
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gadar perets

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.. And you are correct, God the Father sent the Holy Spirit to over shadow the Virgin yet God the Father call the Son his only begotten . Same one God . I can't understand why folks can't realize the genius of God in this ..
Father YHWH can call the Son His only begotten because He caused Him to exist through His power which is called "the Holy Spirit". If the Spirit was really a third person, then the Spirit has to be Yeshua's Father. Yet, trinitarianism teaches the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father.
 
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gadar perets

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Well, I can't say it's led to many questions and conflicts for me, but that's just me :)



They are not separate in the sense that they are say, a Landrover, a mini and a Jaguar all parked on the same road. They are ONE. To me a good analogy is what someone said in church years ago. All water is H20, however it comes in different forms - ice, liquid and gas...but it is all the same essence.
Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, if God the Father Is Jesus's father, then could that mean in a sense that the Holy Spirit is his mother? Not saying He is, but I don't really think we can necessarily see it in quite the same terms as we do human reproduction, quite honestly.
Whichever way you look at it, your way or another way, it is really beyond total human comprehension.

Years ago, I had a 'vision' I suppose you could call it, where Jesus was carrying me all across this vast stony plain, then I found myself on top of a very, very high cliff looking down across the plain. Beside me was standing in the form of a man, the Holy Spirit. And His power was just blowing like a very strong wind all around us and all across the plain (to cut the vision short).
How I knew the one person was Jesus and the other The Holy Spirit is difficult to say precisely, but as many others have testified, when they have these experiences, they just 'know' that it's God the Father or Jesus or the Spirit.





No, it's not necessarily offensive, as the Holy Spirit points the way to Jesus, who is the way to the Father. In a sense, He is in the background. There is an argument I believe between some Cristians as to whther it is permissable to baptise just in the Name of Jesus or does it have to be in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But actually (I beieve) it comes to the same thing, because they are all one in spirit



Haven't much idea about that I'm afraid :). But perhaps again, it is because in a sense he is performing a different function (but no less equal or important).
Sometimes I think of the Father as being in front of me, Jesus as being beside me, and the Spirit as being behind me...kind of like the Spirit is making sure I come to or 'keep up' with Jesus (like a sheepdog LOL), and Jesus is taking me along the path to the Father. Not saying this is scriptural exactly, but just the way it sometimes seems to me. More complex than that of course.


I think the Holy Spirit has authority, but maybe he exercises it in a slightly different way from the others, like I said above, it seems almost like he does things from 'behind'. I mean, supposing your trying to turn around/run away from the Father or Jesus (so to speak) there you will find the authoritative Spirit reminding/advising you to get back on track.
It's hard to explain quite what I mean ( I don't have grand theological words to put things over, I certainly don't have complete understanding).
I'm rather hoping someone else with more insight or knowledge might give you better answers than I can. All I know is that I have in effect a relationship with all of them (in one), it's just a slightly different relationship in some way



I should think that it is of the Holy Spirit as well, and that that would be taken for granted from the whole thrust of scripture.




They probably do, we just aren't directly given the information, except perhaps through inference, again from the whole thrust of scripture.
Perhaps someone else can shed more light on this?
Thanks for trying to answer as best you can based on how you were taught (that the Holy Spirit is a person). To me, the Holy Spirit is not a third person who keeps me on the path and teaches me, etc. It is the power of my Father that does that.
 
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tansy

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Thanks for trying to answer as best you can based on how you were taught (that the Holy Spirit is a person). To me, the Holy Spirit is not a third person who keeps me on the path and teaches me, etc. It is the power of my Father that does that.

:) Yes, I'm afraid I'm not very good at explaining things. However, it's not just from what I've been taught, it's also how I perceive things.

However, Jesus said the Holy Spirit would teach us all things, bring us into all truth.( Not that we have yet been brought into ALL truth, it is a gradual process) Which I think you would agree with, regardless of how we view the Spirit?
 
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4x4toy

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:) Yes, I'm afraid I'm not very good at explaining things. However, it's not just from what I've been taught, it's also how I perceive things.

However, Jesus said the Holy Spirit would teach us all things, bring us into all truth.( Not that we have yet been brought into ALL truth, it is a gradual process) Which I think you would agree with, regardless of how we view the Spirit?

True and John 16:13 calls the Holy Spirit "He" 4 or 5 times
 
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gadar perets

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True and John 16:13 calls the Holy Spirit "He" 4 or 5 times
The Holy Spirit has personal attributes. Among a few of these attributes are that the Holy Spirit searches the deep things of Elohim (1 Corinthians 2:10); speaks (Revelation 2:7); cries out (Galatians 4:6); intercedes (Romans 8:26); gives testimony (John 15:26); leads or directs us (Romans 8:14); commands us (Acts 16:6,7); can be lied to (Acts 5:3); can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30); etc.

The Holy Spirit also has attributes that cannot be applied to a person, ie; it fills people (Acts 2:4); can be poured out (Acts 2.17,18); is upon people (Acts 19:6); people can drink it (1 Corinthians 12:13); it is a down payment (2 Corinthians 1:22); it is a seal (Ephesians 1:13); it is symbolic ink (2 Corinthians 3:3); etc.

To explain why "he" is used or why the Holy Spirit seems to have personal attributes, I appeal to Romans 8:9,10;

"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his. And if Messiah be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."​

The Spirit of Messiah dwells in us, but verse 10 tells us it is Messiah himself. The same holds true for YHWH's Spirit. It is the mind, affections, and will of Almighty YHWH. So the Holy Spirit's personal attributes are those of YHWH and Yeshua dwelling within us. It is their personalities and dispositions. YHWH has given Messiah the full measure of His Holy Spirit (John 3:34; Colossians 1:19). Now that Messiah is glorified via resurrection, the Spirit that he has consists of that of his Father and that of his own. Their spirits are united in one and are placed within believers (John 15:26; Romans 8:9-11), though not in its fullness. On the other hand, since the Spirit also has non-personal attributes, we should attribute that to the fact that the Holy Spirit is YHWH's power or influence.
 
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4x4toy

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I guess it is of our own understanding. The Holy Spirit imo is not an "it" ..He can reveal and teach with the intelligence of God, act and think as God in power but without being worshipped .. Think about that , He always points to Jesus as only God could if he weren't the Father or the Son .. We can't worship in spirit and truth without his personal lead and involvement with us, even born again to seal us ..
 
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gadar perets

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I guess it is of our own understanding. The Holy Spirit imo is not an "it" ..He can reveal and teach with the intelligence of God, act and think as God in power but without being worshipped .. Think about that , He always points to Jesus as only God could if he weren't the Father or the Son .. We can't worship in spirit and truth without his personal lead and involvement with us, even born again to seal us ..
All that can be true without turning the Holy Spirit into a third person that is separate from the Father and Son. The Father and the Son are the personalities behind the HS.
 
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4x4toy

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All that can be true without turning the Holy Spirit into a third person that is separate from the Father and Son. The Father and the Son are the personalities behind the HS.

Ha, I ain't turning nothing into anything .. And that's the way I see it . Matthew 28:18-19 .. Name of ..
 
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ViaCrucis

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The NT calls Yeshua a "creature" or "creation" in Colossians 1:15.

No, it calls Jesus the πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως. The "firstborn of all creation"; a statement immediately followed by ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα εἴτε θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι τὰ πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται, "for by Him all things were created, that in heaven and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, whether dominions, whether principalities, whether powers, everything was created by Him and for Him"

It's a little hard for me, and it was a little hard for the ancient fathers of the Christian Church, to see how Christ can simply be another creature if He created all things.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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