Judas was once saved and lost it...

[Crowns&Laurels]

I am not definitely not catholic or Protestant though closer to much of what they agree to. And there are other groups that do not believe in OSAS such as Wesleyans or Pentecostals, etc etc I am not Lutheran or Anglican or Episcopal, or any of those groups.

That's because they don't believe in predestination. There can't be any kind of OSAS without it.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Judas was once saved and then lost it

Judas once saved, and then lost salvation

a scriptural examination

....,snip.

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not but Judas never partook of the Lord's supper, he didn't partake of the Lord's body and blood, and was considered by the Lord to be a devil.
Luke seems to indicate that Judas left after the Lord's supper, but Mark and Matthew's record shows that Judas was identified by Jesus as His betrayer before He instituted His supper. Mark's record is according to historical sequence, whereas Luke's sequence is according to morality.

 

[LoveofTruth]

That's because they don't believe in predestination. There can't be any kind of OSAS without it.

From what i understand every church gathering in protestantism believes in predestination, its in the bible, but it depends on how you define it and what the predestination is.That is where they differ.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not but Judas never partook of the Lord's supper, he didn't partake of the Lord's body and blood, and was considered by the Lord to be a devil.
Luke seems to indicate that Judas left after the Lord's supper, but Mark and Matthew's record shows that Judas was identified by Jesus as His betrayer before He instituted His supper. Mark's record is according to historical sequence, whereas Luke's sequence is according to morality.

wait,

'He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. John 13:18

and

"26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon...30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night" John 13:26,30

and

"21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me....
25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

and

"
19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them [all 12], saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!" Luke 22

 

[Optimax]

no I have to disagree with you they were born again but did not have the Holy Ghost baptism yet. That was given after Christ rose again. Read my post about the OT new birth and Peter and others

If the OT saints and Judas was born again.

What would be the purpose of them having to wait in Paradise for Jesus before they could go to heaven?

 

[LoveofTruth]

If the OT saints and Judas was born again.

What would be the purpose of them having to wait in Paradise for Jesus before they could go to heaven?

The way into the holiest of all was not made, known they had Christ in them as Abraham did also. Christ had not finished the work. so they were hid in Christ.

"16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:16,29)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The point is that Jesus identified the betrayer before the supper was inaugerated, ((Judas was examined and found unworthy to partake))

Mark 14:18-20
18 And as they were reclining at table and eating, Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.” 19 They began to be sorrowful and to say to him one after another, “Is it I?” 20 He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me.

Mark 14:22-24
Institution of the Lord's Supper
22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” 23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

Many today partake unworthily and are not counted in the Family of God.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The point is that Jesus identified the betrayer before the supper was inaugerated, ((Judas was examined and found unworthy to partake))

Many today partake unworthily and are not counted in the family of God.

Judas betrayed him, the word "betrayed", means to once have the trust and go against that trust. Judas was a sheep sent to the lost sheep. scripture is clear he was saved once. OSAS if a false doctrne

 

[brinny]

The point is that Jesus identified the betrayer before the supper was inaugerated, ((Judas was examined and found unworthy to partake))

Many today partake unworthily and are not counted in the Family of God.

Actually that's a very astute point, and one i never noticed....

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Judas betrayed him, the word "betrayed", means to once have the trust and go against that trust. Judas was a sheep sent to the lost sheep. scripture is clear he was saved once. OSAS if a false doctrne

Only if the son of perdition was once saved too, but that takes it into an area spiritual warfare, and not according to human means. The power behind Judas will never receive redemption, but Judas betrayal is judged according to different standards. No proof that I can see.

 

[Optimax]

The way into the holiest of all was not made, known they had Christ in them as Abraham did also. Christ had not finished the work. so they were hid in Christ.

"16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:16,29)

Scripture tells us how to be saved/born again in Rom 10:9.

Before Jesus was raised from the dead it was impossible to do that.

 

[cordie]

Indeed one of the more complex realms of Christianity. The Catholic Catechism leaves the fate entirely to God while we all prognosticate. If God knew all along Judas would be the sell-out then that story fulfills predestination faith. If all lives are predestined, then there probably is not much point in putting anything into life. Or we could look at it this way, he simply made the wrong choice & selected evil. God saves you but if you choose to dwell outside the realm, then you sign your own fate. Then there are some denoms that believe that Christ did it all on the cross so there is no hell. And yet again go figure, if God was setting the story up this way, then someone had to do the deed-wonder if it was God's plan. Now figure this: was Judas' deed forgiveable?

 

[Gentle Lamb]

Judas was once saved and then lost it

Judas once saved, and then lost salvation

a scriptural examination

Hello all, please consider this carefully.

Judas was one of the disciples and apostles of Jesus. A apostle is a "sent one" of God. Judas, belonged to Jesus and was one of his disciples as we read,

" And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." Matthew 10:1

Notice here that Judas was one of Jesus disciples. Jesus called HIS TWELVE DISCIPLES. So Judas was included in the twelve called by Jesus here, and they were HIS , not only eleven disciples and one devil. At this time Judas was not a devil or possesed with the devil. At this time he was saved. For he belonged to Jesus. The clarity here cannot be denied.
Also we read That Jesus gave the twelve (Judas included) here "power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." How can Satan cast out Satan? If Judas was always a devil as some wrongly teach, then how can he have power given to cast out devils, Jesus told us that Satan can not cast out Satan?
So he was also given power to heal all manner of sickness and disease. If he was an unsaved man he could not do this? Remember Jesus called HIS TWELVE disciples to him. He did not call "HIS" ELEVEN and one a devil. And he gave them ( Judas included) power. To say that the eleven were Jesus disciples and Judas was not is wrong and puts a lie in the writers words here and says that Jesus didn't know the difference from who was saved and who was not. Thats ridiculous. Jesus knew his sheep and they were all his sheep as we shall see.

At this point you may say Judas never belonged to the Father, as the other eleven. But Jesus says differently.

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."

Here we see that the twelve apostles, (spoken of at this time in the context Judas included) once all belonged to the Father, Jesus said "Thine they were" Judas included, and they were given to Jesus. But Judas became lost vs 12 and as we read in Acts 1 he fell by transgression. How can he fall if he was always fallen? No, he was once saved and then fell away. as we read,

"That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." Acts 1:25

Notice here, about Judas that he had part of the ministry and apostleship. An apostle is a sent on of God, and a mighty gifting. Judas was one, and had part of the ministry. Part of that ministry was Matthew 10 as we have been reading. And it says he fell by transgression. Notice again here, he "FELL", so he was not always fallen as some wrongly teach. Lets read on more about that ministry of Judas and the other apostles.
Lets read on more about that ministry of Judas and the other apostles. "

Matthew 10:2-4

"2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot..."

Notice that Judas was called an apostle here. God does not consider a person an apostle of Jesus and give them power to cast out devils and raise the dead, if they are a devil, and not saved.

"5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Notice again, the TWElVE Jesus sent forth. So all the commands he gives are for the twelve, not just the eleven and one devil excluded. To try and make the text say that Judas was not one of them is classic biblical twisting. I have sen some try to escape the clear consequece of this whole section because they squirm and get frustrated how clearly it rebukes their false eternal security view and their ideas about Judas. Remember this is at the beginning of Judas ministry, not at the end when he was hardening to Jesus and when he was about to betray Jesus.

Matthew 10:6-9

"6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,"

Notice here that Jesus told the twelve apostles ( Judas included to go to the LOST SHEEP. This is significant because Jesus called them all his sheep, and sent them as sheep to the lost sheep, showing that the twelve were his sheep and saved and had eternal life, as he said before his sheep hear his voice and he knows them and gives them eternal life. And Jesus said specific things here about them being his sheep lets read,

Matthew 10"16

"Behold, I send you [all twelve Judas included] forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

This is so clear and a thundering verse to tear down the strongholds of the eternal security doctrine. The weapon of our God are might through him to the tearing down of strongholds. Jesus sent them ( the twelve, Judas included) as sheep, to the lost sheep. Showing that the twelve apostles ( Judas included) were all his sheep. read this again for clarity,

John 10:27,28
"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; "

This is clear, all the twelve heard his voice (Judas included) and all twelve followed him (Judas included) and all twelve were given eternal life (Judas included). How much clearer can it be?

Lets read on in Matthew 10

Matthew 10:12,13

"12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you."

So all the twelve (JUDAS INCLUDED) had the peace of God to give to others, Judas included. And more,

Matthew 10:20
"For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."

the twelve (Judas included) had the Spirit of the father speaking in them when needed.

Matthew 10:25
"25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? [Judas was of Jesus Household as well as the others]

"Notice here that Jesus is referring to himself as their master, and the twelve (Judas included) as part of his household.

The evidence is mounting so clearly it is undeniable. How can this be denied?

Then we also know that Judas was successful as the others for he obtained part of the ministry Acts 1. And even if we do not see very specific verses that show him alone doing all the things Jesus sent them all to do. We know that he was given power to do that and had the peace of God and the Spirit of the Father in him and was a found sheep sent to the lost sheep as the others.

We also read that Judas "betrayed" Jesus Matthew 3:19 and Matthew 26:25 . To betray someone means to once have the trust of that person as the word betray means. And we read a prophecy about Judas that says,

"Psalms 41:9
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

This is referring to Judas as we read,

"John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Judas once had the trust of Jesus, showing he was not a devil always, He was the familiar friend of Jesus.Jesus is not the familiar friend of devils and does not ever trust them. And a devil cannot betray Jesus because the word betray means to have the trust of once and to go against that trust.

we also read in Acts about Judas a quote from Psalms 69,

Acts 1:16-20

"16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

This is in the Psalms about Judas as we read,


Psalms 69:25-28

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."

Notice that the same ones spoken of ( udas included as we read in Acts) are "blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." Psalm 69:28 Clearly showing that Judas went to the lake of fire and was once in the book of life and with the righteous. This shows that he was once in the book of life and then blotted out.

We see more about this ministry all the twelve had Judas included and the 70 as well. here we read,

Luke 10:1-23

"1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:"

Notice here that this is like Matthew 10 and similar ministry, we read,"the Lord appointed other seventy also". So he sent his sheep the twelve out and seventy others also with them. they were all together and he said to the others also, "I send you forth as lambs among wolves" This is the same thing she said and many other things. But then we read "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." They had their names written in heaven" and so they were all just as sucessful. Jesus turns to his disciples privately and said that they were blessed ( Judas included)

Great post! This is a very important topic, as the once saved always saved doctrine is quite false & not biblical. We are to persevere in our faith, to strive for it. David Wilkerson had a message he preached about someone who had the doors of heaven closed to him after continuing in a way that God had warned against many years. The man reportedly said there were no more chances for him and that even when he cried out to God he could no longer feel God's presence. I can't imagine a scarier feeling! I wish I could find the message to post here. What really keeps us from being Judas or Cain? Both were warned against sin crouching at their door... they didn't have to give in. That's a lesson that we should all take to heart as the Devil constantly seeks to kill, steal, and destroy us. We must also press in to the Father to guard against these things so that we won't lose our love for Him & turn away from Him.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Scripture tells us how to be saved/born again in Rom 10:9.

Before Jesus was raised from the dead it was impossible to do that.

Before Jesus was raised from the dead we read of many who were saved,

"
Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."

"19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days:" Deut. 30:19,20

"
Psalm 51:12
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit."

" I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth."Isaiah 49:6

"John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

notice the present tense, "is passed from death unto life" and hath everlasting life"

"
John 6:69
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God."

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,..." John 17:12

all before the cross. i could go on but that is a start. There is much more

 

[Rick Otto]

It's a good point. Jesus said that all those whom the Father had given him could not be taken from his hand (i.e. OSAS). There is, however, no reason to assume that he was including Judas in that number.

As well as mercy being a reason to assume he was.

Abraham was before the cross,too. Point being, God's soteriology didn't change between testaments, man's understanding of it was supposed to.

But,... the evidence he wasn't saved to begin with is here:

John6:70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

(I don't think He was indulging hyperbole.)

 

[LoveofTruth]

As well as mercy being a reason to assume he was.

Abraham was before the cross,too. Point being, God's soteriology didn't change between testaments, man's understanding of it was supposed to.

"
2 Chronicles 15:2
And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

Matthew 10:33
"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

 

[Rick Otto]

"
2 Chronicles 15:2
And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

Matthew 10:33
"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Sorry, I don't g e t your point.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Sorry, I don't g e t your point.

men can be with God and forsake him and deny him then he will deny them and forsake them

 

[Rick Otto]

men can be with God and forsake him and deny him then he will deny them and forsake them

What about the part where God as Jesus says he is a devil?
Do you still think he might have been saved, or do you have another reason to believe why Jesus said "devil"?

 

[LoveofTruth]

What about the part where God as Jesus says he is a devil?
Do you still think he might have been saved, or do you have another reason to believe why Jesus said "devil"?

First off this was somewhat of a prophetic word, This he spoke of Judas who should [future tense] betray him

"71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve" John 6:71

Also this was at the end of Jesus ministry three years or so earlier Judas was one of the twelves who had power given and to cast out devils and was sent as a sheep to the lost sheep etc matthew 10

We read in another place,

"And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly." John 13:27

if at that time Judas was a devil , that was at the end of Jesus ministry and he went away from the trust he once had