Judas was once saved and lost it...

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

But when Judas hanged himself, he forewent his possible salvation by committing murder as his last act.

If he had not committed murder, but had simply repented, he would have been saved.

 

[LoveofTruth]

consider again the very very clear verses

" And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples..."5 These twelve Jesus sent forth...Behold, I send you [all twelve Judas included] forth as sheep in the midst of wolves..."

Judas was called a SHEEP by Jesus sent to the LOST sheep!!!

I dont know how clear scripture can make this more than that.

Jesus said also

John 10:27,28
"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; "

 

[brinny]

The Catholic Church judged Judas harshly so they could contrast Peter's overcoming of the devil Jesus saw in him once. The tradition of such condemnation of Judas, in other words, was due to an ulterior motive- they sit in Peter's chair.

There really isn't much to suggest that Judas really lost his salvation. His suicide was due to the demons taunting him and being in extreme regret for having betrayed Jesus in the first place.
He took the bag of silver and threw it right back in the Pharisees' face. Was there no forgiveness for him? I doubt Jesus would let someone who truly wanted to repent just be given over to destruction, in fact it just takes away the point of him altogether if he did so.

There isn't simply an empty throne in Heaven, preordained, due to a fallen disciple. The last one was not for Paul, because it was not ordained for him.
That's just how I see it.

There is "worldly" (fleshly) sorrow and the sorrow/repentance that frees and forgives. Only Jesus can forgive us. Judas didn't go to Jesus to repent, astounding as that is. He took his worldly sorrow, and kept it as it accompanied him to his own sel-demise. Even then, he REFUSED to go to the ONLY ONE Who can forgive, even AFTER being with Jesus all that time. Judas would rather die accused by his own hand than go to Jesus to seek forgiveness.

There is a reason that Jesus said what He did about Judas.

 

[LoveofTruth]

But when Judas hanged himself, he forewent his possible salvation by committing murder as his last act.

If he had not committed murder, but had simply repented, he would have been saved.

Yes and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him 1 John 3:15

 

[brinny]

It would have been better for him not to have been born. Judas of all men is most miserable, he once belonged to the father John 17:6, was a sheep of Jesus Matthew 10, walked with Jesus and knew him closely and was his friend, and then to betray ( to once have the trust of and go against that) him after all that is far worse.

That's quite profound, isn't it? Jesus knew Judas' heart from the gitgo and knew EXACTLY WHO Judas was and who he aligned with and would continue to align with, and who Judas was "sold out" to. And it is clear WHO Judas rejected and would continue to reject to his dying breath.

What a tragedy.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Judas became a lost sheep and instead of repenting, he committed a grave sin, foregoing his salvation.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Yes and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him 1 John 3:15

Unless and until he repents and is forgiven by God.

 

[Albion]

Judas is a complicated character study. Many Christians don't like this type of contradiction in a character. It is difficult to separate what Judas did in fulfillment of prophecy from the earlier narrative of him. What the OP has proved is that Judas fully participated in the apostolic ministry. To argue about Judas' salvation is, I think, not productive.

Interestingly, in Dante's Inferno, Judas is labeled one of the three greatest sinners who ever lived and is portrayed being perpetually chewed in the mouth of Satan. What is more interesting is that Dante envisioned a part of Hell for suicides, but this place was too good for Judas. This is pretty typical of how most people view Judas - totally unsympathetically.

I had a close friend who theorized that Judas would be counted among the great saints because he was so remorseful that he couldn't bear living any more with what he had done. BUT the flip side of that coin may be that he didn't seek Christ's forgiveness, either. Judas's experience may be a lesson to us about not ceasing to trust the Lord. Jesus told his followers not to worry but to trust; and I presume that that is a characteristic of those who really do have Faith.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Unless and until he repents and is forgiven by God.

yes but if he kills himself then there is no more chance

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

No we read that Judas was gone to his own place and it was better for him not to have been born, also that his name was blotted out of the book of life, and all those who are not found written in the Lambs book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. It is very clear that he was lost and damned and headed for the lake of fire. as scripture shows

Those passages alone only work with the doctrine of Infused Righteousness, in which one can lose their salvation. It doesn't, needless to say, work with OSAS.
And so, in all tradition of condemning Judas, it was figured that he simply never believed in Christ in the first place, all the way to the grave.
There is a very big problem with that, and it rests in the fact that he would commit suicide before he would kneel to Jesus? He's guilty of shedding innocent blood and feels sinful, but doesn't heed the Pharisees?

There is a big hole of reasoning right there, and it's due to the unfortunate circumstance of tradition outweighing scrutiny.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I had a close friend who theorized that Judas would be counted among the great saints because he was so remorseful that he couldn't bear living any more with what he had done. BUT the flip side of that coin may be that he didn't seek Christ's forgiveness, either. Judas's experience may be a lesson to us about not ceasing to trust the Lord. Jesus told his followers not to worry but to trust; and I presume that that is a characteristic of those who really do have Faith.

one of the lessons we learn from Judas and from the angels that sinned. Is that is is possible with even the greatest of benefits and closeness to God to still turn away, so we need to always be faithful and guard our hearts, and Judas is a rebuke to all who teach Calvinism or any such view

 

[LoveofTruth]

Those passages alone only work with the doctrine of Infused Righteousness, in which one can lose their salvation. It doesn't, needless to say, work with OSAS.
And so, in all tradition of condemning Judas, it was figured that he simply never believed in Christ in the first place, all the way to the grave.
There is a very big problem with that, and it rests in the fact that he would commit suicide before he would kneel to Jesus? He's guilty of shedding innocent blood and feels sinful, but doesn't heed the Pharisees?

There is a big hole of reasoning right there, and it's due to the unfortunate circumstance of tradition outweighing scrutiny.

Judas having life and then losing it rebukes all the OSAS camp and calvinist error.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Judas having life and then losing it rebukes all the OSAS camp and calvinist error.

Except OSAS is a central doctrine of Protestantism altogether. They just differ in little ways. For example, Luther taught that once you have believed in Christ, you are saved regardless. But Calvin taught that if one falls to sin, they were never saved to begin with (perseverance of the saints).
There's not really much middle ground between the notions of OSAS or IR.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

yes but if he kills himself then there is no more chance

Exactly.

Except. I believe in being able to be prayed into heaven, that some have the power of intercession, even for those who have died in a state of sin. Sort of like purgatory I suppose.

 

[Optimax]

I considered...and I don't think it holds up. We believe that Moses, for instance, was saved; and most people believe that he and others were in the bosom of Abraham awaiting the Savior, being released for heaven after Christ's death on the Cross. If this is the case, the Apostles were not in a worse position than they.

The OT saints, such as Moses, Abraham, Sarah, David, etc. all were definitely in the bosom of Abraham/Paradise.

They were there waiting for Jesus to come which he did and released them.

Jesus did not release them until after He was raised from the dead.

They had to wait there until the new birth was made available to man.

The new birth was not available until after Jesus rose from the dead.

Once He was raised, they could then leave Paradise and go to heaven.

The apostles being alive after Jesus was raised could then be born again.

That event when the apostles were saved/born again is recorded in Jn 20:22 and Lu 24:45.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: KJV

Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, KJV

 

[Albion]

Except OSAS is a central doctrine of Protestantism altogether.

Well, no, it's not. It's a well-known belief, but it's not the norm if you take all Protestant churches together for purposes of determining how "central" it is.

They just differ in little ways. For example, Luther taught that once you have believed in Christ, you are saved regardless.

No, that's not correct.

 

[Albion]

The OT saints, such as Moses, Abraham, Sarah, David, etc. all were definitely in the bosom of Abraham/Paradise.

They were there waiting for Jesus to come which he did and released them.

Jesus did not release them until after He was raised from the dead.

They had to wait there until the new birth was made available to man.

The new birth was not available until after Jesus rose from the dead.

Once He was raised, they could then leave Paradise and go to heaven.

The apostles being alive after Jesus was raised could then be born again.

Without arguing that point about "born again" and when exactly they could be heaven-bound, we appear to be in agreement.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Except OSAS is a central doctrine of Protestantism altogether. They just differ in little ways. For example, Luther taught that once you have believed in Christ, you are saved regardless. But Calvin taught that if one falls to sin, they were never saved to begin with (perseverance of the saints).
There's not really much middle ground between the notions of OSAS or IR.

I am not definitely not catholic or Protestant though closer to much of what they agree to. And there are other groups that do not believe in OSAS such as Wesleyans or Pentecostals, etc etc I am not Lutheran or Anglican or Episcopal, or any of those groups.

And I think you are over simplifying it when you talk of Luther and Calvins views.

 

[LoveofTruth]

The OT saints, such as Moses, Abraham, Sarah, David, etc. all were definitely in the bosom of Abraham/Paradise.

They were there waiting for Jesus to come which he did and released them.

Jesus did not release them until after He was raised from the dead.

They had to wait there until the new birth was made available to man.

The new birth was not available until after Jesus rose from the dead.

Once He was raised, they could then leave Paradise and go to heaven.

The apostles being alive after Jesus was raised could then be born again.

That event when the apostles were saved/born again is recorded in Jn 20:22 and Lu 24:45.

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: KJV

Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, KJV

no I have to disagree with you they were born again but did not have the Holy Ghost baptism yet. That was given after Christ rose again. Read my post about the OT new birth and Peter and others

 

[LoveofTruth]

Exactly.

Except. I believe in being able to be prayed into heaven, that some have the power of intercession, even for those who have died in a state of sin. Sort of like purgatory I suppose.

No once to die then the judgement no second chance after death