Judas was once saved and lost it...

[rnmomof7]

Election is a messy issue. But it is my firm opinion that election does not extend to a persons salvation. Election is the means by which God maintains his plan for free will salvation. God is love a loving God would not predestinate people to hell. It makes far more sense to see free will as the catalyst for salvation, as the bible says God is long suffering not willing that any should perish but all should have life.

So then God does not elect men , they elect Him ...

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So then God does not elect men , they elect Him ...

Is that such a crazy idea. God is a just God. How better for God to ordain salvation than by allowing man to choose Him. We are His bride, a free will offering of our lives to him. God ordains how we are saved, not who is saved.

 

[LOOM]

I guess a similar question could be asked, what was the point of Jesus dying, if anyone could go to hell. The fact is some people will go to hell. Just because a person accepts Christ at some point does not mean they can't loose it. Hebrews 6 explains this. But that scripture you provided does make a valid point, the cross of Christ is for all sins, a lifetime of sins. This means any person can repent and be forgiven for any sin. Because the cross is available.

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Whether we make it or not as a Christian is determined by who we obey, either God leading to life, or unrighteousness (sin) leading to death. It is a bit like this, imagine we are in the ocean, with out a flotation device we will sink and drown. The cross is the flotation device that keeps us alive while we wait for Christ to come rescue us. Sin is like weight we add to our selves. If we constantly add sin to our lives, we get heavy, and it does not matter how good the flotation device is, we will eventually sink and drown. Sin, habitual sin, binds us to blindness (spiritually speaking). If we are a habitual sinner Satan has a right to cause us blindness, eventually if we keep unrepentant sin we will no longer see the cross, or christ, we will fall away. If we are alive (due to the cross being available), we could repent. But if we love our sin more than Christ we will perish.

You say that whether or not we make it or not as Christians is determined by who we obey. I don't agree with that due to saying that means you have to work for your salvation.

Now looking at Ephesians 2:7-9,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Now that peace of scripture shows us that its not by our works, but a gift of God by his grace. Now if you say whether we make it as Christians meaning whether we make it to heaven or not is due to who we obey is like saying "Jesus died for my sin, but I still have to work in order to be saved and get to heaven".

Where as Romans 6:10-11,
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And then John 3:16,
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Those scriptures show us its not by our works(who we obey in your case) that determines whether we make it or not, but who ever believes in him. Now that's not to say we shouldn't obey God please don't get me wrong. We should obey God and if you truly love God you will want to obey him. Its just that your obedience is not going to determine if you go to heaven or not.

Now if we take a look at the scripture you provided of Romans 6:16 it should rather be read in context so you can get an overall picture of what that verse is about.

Romans 6:11-23,
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


If we look again at the scripture you gave of Romans 6:16 we can see that yes we become slaves to that which we obey. When you become born again you surrender your life to Christ and he bought you with a price and that price is his blood. And being born again means we were set free from sin and became slaves of righteousness and God(verse 18 and 22). And then is verse 23 it says again that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord and we just read that we have been set free of sin.

Now will we sin? Yes we will, why? Because our flesh is weak. Are you born again? Yes. Then you accepted God's gift of eternal life and Romans 8:8-13,

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

My apologies for any spelling and grammar errors, its late here and English is not my first language.

 

[LoveofTruth]

[QUOTE="adhidarmawijaya, post: 68345078, member: 378143And Judas was not in there, since he was representation of the devil himself , so he was not the one of the removed names .[/QUOTE]

Just making statements like that doesn't make them right. Judas was saved and he once belonged to the father John 17:6, and he was one of Jesus sheep sent to the lost sheep, Matthew 10 etc etc, read my post

But he was in the book of life. Jesus said when the disciples came back and cast out devils etc he said dont rejoice that the devils are subject to you but that your names are written in the lambs book of life. Judas was also as effective in the ministry. He obtained part of the ministry and was given power by Jesus to cast out devils. In acts we read of Judas falling by transgression. How does a person FALL if they are always fallen?. Then we read about him in the book of Acts with a reference to Psalm 69 in Psalm 69 we read about him

"25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" Psalmsm 69

in Acts we read about Judas

"20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take." Acts 1

I think some times believers, when they see their prescious doctrine exposed as untrue. they will simply try to just state what they think, like No Judas was never saved, and he was always a their and always a devil. Even though scripture does not use words like "always" etc. They do this to try and regain some sense of understanding when their view seems to be shaken. But this is not right, we need to be honest with the text.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You say that whether or not we make it or not as Christians is determined by who we obey. I don't agree with that due to saying that means you have to work for your salvation.

Well it is certainly not possible to disregard God's commands. Jesus says that "the one who loves me is the one who keeps my commands".

The bible also says "the one who sins is of the devil", and 1Jn 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother".


Sure we are saved by grace, and called to liberty, but we are not to use that liberty to sin. If we are sinning we need to repent.

 

[LoveofTruth]

does anyone here deny that Jesus called Judas and the other 11 sheep, and sent them as sheep to the Lost sheep?

If so then they all had eternal life. as Jesus said his sheep have.

maybe if we stick to one section a small few verses we can work through it

 

[FutureAndAHope]

does anyone here deny that Jesus called Judas and the other 11 sheep, and sent them as sheep to the Lost sheep?

If so then they all had eternal life. as Jesus said his sheep have.

maybe if we stick to one section a small few verses we can work through it

Maybe he was, maybe he was not. Jesus also said:

Mat 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus said many would do works in his name, that He never knew, the fact of knowing God, is to obey, i.e. not be lawless, Judas was lawless, he was a thief. He may never have known God truly.

 

[Strong in Him]

Sorry I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but just a few thoughts:

1. Judas was one of the 12; Jesus purposely chose him to be a disciple.
2. When Jesus called the 12 to him to teach them and sent the 12 out on a mission, Judas was among them. Where Scripture says that the disciples healed people and drove out demons, there's no reason to think that Judas wasn't doing this work too.
3. Yes, Judas betrayed Jesus. but I would say that giving the money back, telling the authorities he had betrayed an innocent man and then taking his own life, indicates sorrow, if not despair, and remorse. The only real difference between Judas and Peter is that Peter stayed around, albeit in hiding, to see what would happen. It seems none of the disciples were expecting the resurrection; if Judas had been I am fairly sure he would have asked the risen Jesus for forgiveness.
4. Yes, Jesus did say that it would be better for this person if he had not been born. My own view about the latter is that Jesus knew that Judas would take his own life and die in turmoil, believing he was unforgiven.
5. God sent Jesus to die for the sins of the world to reconcile men to himself. Jesus' death - the sacrifice of a spotless lamb - was the only way this could happen, and it would still have happened, with or without Judas' betrayal.

 

[outsidethecamp]

does anyone here deny that Jesus called Judas and the other 11 sheep, and sent them as sheep to the Lost sheep?

If so then they all had eternal life. as Jesus said his sheep have.

maybe if we stick to one section a small few verses we can work through it

I'm not sure you can go that far.

He did not have them receive the Holy Spirit until after His resurrection.
John_20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Either way, Judas, referred to Judas as the "son of perdition".

If he ever did have saving faith, he rejected Christ and ended all relationship with Him which would mean he "fell away" and of course if he never did have saving faith as OT saints did, then he just had a form of godliness.

There are better ways to establish the false teaching of OSAS.

 

[Saucy]

Blind post: Remember Jesus did say that not all who say "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of Heaven. They will say they cast demons out in His name, etc, but He still cast them out for their iniquity. So just because you do works and cast out demons doesn't mean you're saved.

So, the whole salvation thing really didn't start until Christ died on the cross. Before His death, your salvation came differently, through sacrifice of the lambs, etc and you could lose it.

 

[Douggg]

Consider this.

Judas was not saved.

Judas did all that he did before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

The new birth was not available until Jesus was resurrected.

In other words no one was nor could be saved/born again/born from above (rom 10:9) until after Jesus was raised from the dead.

diito.

It was not until after the resurrection that the gospel of salvation was understood.

Luke 24:
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

[Douggg]

The Catholic Church judged Judas harshly so they could contrast Peter's overcoming of the devil Jesus saw in him once. The tradition of such condemnation of Judas, in other words, was due to an ulterior motive- they sit in Peter's chair.

There really isn't much to suggest that Judas really lost his salvation. His suicide was due to the demons taunting him and being in extreme regret for having betrayed Jesus in the first place.
He took the bag of silver and threw it right back in the Pharisees' face. Was there no forgiveness for him? I doubt Jesus would let someone who truly wanted to repent just be given over to destruction, in fact it just takes away the point of him altogether if he did so.

And Jesus also forgave his fellow Jews who crucified him, as he was on the cross, of that sin.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Judas was once saved and then lost it

Judas once saved, and then lost salvation

a scriptural examination

Hello all, please consider this carefully.

Judas was one of the disciples and apostles of Jesus. A apostle is a "sent one" of God. Judas, belonged to Jesus and was one of his disciples as we read,

" And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." Matthew 10:1

Notice here that Judas was one of Jesus disciples. Jesus called HIS TWELVE DISCIPLES. So Judas was included in the twelve called by Jesus here, and they were HIS , not only eleven disciples and one devil. At this time Judas was not a devil or possesed with the devil. At this time he was saved. For he belonged to Jesus. The clarity here cannot be denied.
Also we read That Jesus gave the twelve (Judas included) here "power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." How can Satan cast out Satan? If Judas was always a devil as some wrongly teach, then how can he have power given to cast out devils, Jesus told us that Satan can not cast out Satan?
So he was also given power to heal all manner of sickness and disease. If he was an unsaved man he could not do this? Remember Jesus called HIS TWELVE disciples to him. He did not call "HIS" ELEVEN and one a devil. And he gave them ( Judas included) power. To say that the eleven were Jesus disciples and Judas was not is wrong and puts a lie in the writers words here and says that Jesus didn't know the difference from who was saved and who was not. Thats ridiculous. Jesus knew his sheep and they were all his sheep as we shall see.

At this point you may say Judas never belonged to the Father, as the other eleven. But Jesus says differently.

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."

Here we see that the twelve apostles, (spoken of at this time in the context Judas included) once all belonged to the Father, Jesus said "Thine they were" Judas included, and they were given to Jesus. But Judas became lost vs 12 and as we read in Acts 1 he fell by transgression. How can he fall if he was always fallen? No, he was once saved and then fell away. as we read,

"That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." Acts 1:25

Notice here, about Judas that he had part of the ministry and apostleship. An apostle is a sent on of God, and a mighty gifting. Judas was one, and had part of the ministry. Part of that ministry was Matthew 10 as we have been reading. And it says he fell by transgression. Notice again here, he "FELL", so he was not always fallen as some wrongly teach. Lets read on more about that ministry of Judas and the other apostles.
Lets read on more about that ministry of Judas and the other apostles. "

Matthew 10:2-4

"2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot..."

Notice that Judas was called an apostle here. God does not consider a person an apostle of Jesus and give them power to cast out devils and raise the dead, if they are a devil, and not saved.

"5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Notice again, the TWElVE Jesus sent forth. So all the commands he gives are for the twelve, not just the eleven and one devil excluded. To try and make the text say that Judas was not one of them is classic biblical twisting. I have sen some try to escape the clear consequece of this whole section because they squirm and get frustrated how clearly it rebukes their false eternal security view and their ideas about Judas. Remember this is at the beginning of Judas ministry, not at the end when he was hardening to Jesus and when he was about to betray Jesus.

Matthew 10:6-9

"6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,"

Notice here that Jesus told the twelve apostles ( Judas included to go to the LOST SHEEP. This is significant because Jesus called them all his sheep, and sent them as sheep to the lost sheep, showing that the twelve were his sheep and saved and had eternal life, as he said before his sheep hear his voice and he knows them and gives them eternal life. And Jesus said specific things here about them being his sheep lets read,

Matthew 10"16

"Behold, I send you [all twelve Judas included] forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

This is so clear and a thundering verse to tear down the strongholds of the eternal security doctrine. The weapon of our God are might through him to the tearing down of strongholds. Jesus sent them ( the twelve, Judas included) as sheep, to the lost sheep. Showing that the twelve apostles ( Judas included) were all his sheep. read this again for clarity,

John 10:27,28
"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; "

This is clear, all the twelve heard his voice (Judas included) and all twelve followed him (Judas included) and all twelve were given eternal life (Judas included). How much clearer can it be?

Lets read on in Matthew 10

Matthew 10:12,13

"12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you."

So all the twelve (JUDAS INCLUDED) had the peace of God to give to others, Judas included. And more,

Matthew 10:20
"For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."

the twelve (Judas included) had the Spirit of the father speaking in them when needed.

Matthew 10:25
"25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? [Judas was of Jesus Household as well as the others]

"Notice here that Jesus is referring to himself as their master, and the twelve (Judas included) as part of his household.

The evidence is mounting so clearly it is undeniable. How can this be denied?

Then we also know that Judas was successful as the others for he obtained part of the ministry Acts 1. And even if we do not see very specific verses that show him alone doing all the things Jesus sent them all to do. We know that he was given power to do that and had the peace of God and the Spirit of the Father in him and was a found sheep sent to the lost sheep as the others.

We also read that Judas "betrayed" Jesus Matthew 3:19 and Matthew 26:25 . To betray someone means to once have the trust of that person as the word betray means. And we read a prophecy about Judas that says,

"Psalms 41:9
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

This is referring to Judas as we read,

"John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Judas once had the trust of Jesus, showing he was not a devil always, He was the familiar friend of Jesus.Jesus is not the familiar friend of devils and does not ever trust them. And a devil cannot betray Jesus because the word betray means to have the trust of once and to go against that trust.

we also read in Acts about Judas a quote from Psalms 69,

Acts 1:16-20

"16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

This is in the Psalms about Judas as we read,


Psalms 69:25-28

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."

Notice that the same ones spoken of ( udas included as we read in Acts) are "blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." Psalm 69:28 Clearly showing that Judas went to the lake of fire and was once in the book of life and with the righteous. This shows that he was once in the book of life and then blotted out.

We see more about this ministry all the twelve had Judas included and the 70 as well. here we read,

Luke 10:1-23

"1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:"

Notice here that this is like Matthew 10 and similar ministry, we read,"the Lord appointed other seventy also". So he sent his sheep the twelve out and seventy others also with them. they were all together and he said to the others also, "I send you forth as lambs among wolves" This is the same thing she said and many other things. But then we read "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." They had their names written in heaven" and so they were all just as sucessful. Jesus turns to his disciples privately and said that they were blessed ( Judas included)

Judas can't be saved before Christ's death. Christ had to die to save Judas, just everyone else.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

I rather think the apostles were supremely angry at Judas and that is why they wrote about him with such condemnation. Because it wasn't just Jesus he had put in danger, but them as well.

 

[outsidethecamp]

I rather think the apostles were supremely angry at Judas and that is why they wrote about him with such condemnation. Because it wasn't just Jesus he had put in danger, but them as well.

the apostles later understood when their spiritual eyes were opened that Jesus came to die for our sins. I think they saw Jesus wasn't angry and that helped them not to be angry. On the other hand if Jesus displayed anger, the apostles would have most likely followed his lead.

 

[pastor marty]

This is partly true (in my opinion), note:

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Some people who are alive God does not want saved. They can never believe. Not because God has selected them prior to creation for damnation, but rather the person has had pleasure in unrighteousness, and they did not repent.

You are right in saying any one who wants salvation can have it, I may have sinned and moved away from God, I may have even entered a state of unbelief, yet if I can trust in the cross I will have salvation, it is available to me. All the scriptures you quoted are true.

But unfortunately for some, there are people who have lived their lives in such a selfish way that even God does not want them saved. So what does God do? He sends them "strong delusion, that they should believe a lie", why so that they will be dammed.

This should cause us to live our lives in reverence and fear, knowing that we need to live righteously.

So when does this delusion occur, not when dead, but when alive. I am guessing Judas was selected due to the fact he was unrighteous, he saw all the miracles, maybe even worked a few of them, but in the end he was sent "strong delusion". What was his delusion, money, he was a thief. God used his sin against him.

So at any given point in time there will be people who can never be saved, why, God has counted then as unworthy.

Mat 13:27 -29 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Note the parable of the tares, God sows good seed, not one man is chosen for hell, yet an enemy (the devil) causes some to become evil. The question is asked "what do we do with the evil ones?", "should we uproot them? (i.e. send them to hell right now)". Jesus says no. Let them grow together, at the end we will do it. Again I believe this shows men can be alive, and irredeemable.

 

[pastor marty]

I'm trying to reply to "Future&hope" & everyone else on this topic,I still do the "Please don't leave or forsake me prayer" with greater regularity than a convict begging for parole.Believing I can lose my ticket to Heaven makes me work harder for GOD.

 

[rnmomof7]

In the OT men were saved by looking forward to the cross ... Judas was living in the OT (pre new covenant) ...and salvation could only come by looking forward to the cross.. The fact he betrayed Christ shows He had no understanding of the OT promises of a spiritual Savior.. He like most of Israel at that time looked for a political Savior .... no not saved.. Devils are never saved

 

[bling]

So then God does not elect men , they elect Him ...

God (like the master) invites everyone and everyone that goes to the Banquet was invited by God.

 

[outsidethecamp]

Mat 13:27 -29 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Note the parable of the tares, God sows good seed, not one man is chosen for hell, yet an enemy (the devil) causes some to become evil. The question is asked "what do we do with the evil ones?", "should we uproot them? (i.e. send them to hell right now)". Jesus says no. Let them grow together, at the end we will do it. Again I believe this shows men can be alive, and irredeemable.

Yes, it would be against the character of God to pre-ordain men to destruction.
1Tim_2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.