Judas was once saved and lost it...

[rnmomof7]

Judas was an apostle, a disciple, a sheep sent to the lost sheep, a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted,

No Christ knew who Judas was from the beginning ...

 

[rnmomof7]

No all OT saints were SAINTS ( godly ) before Christ death but not without his death in time. David had salvation and when he had sin he prayed for forgiveness and asked God to restore unto him the joy of his salvation. David also asked God to CREATE IN him a clean heat and to renew a right spirt within him. This is the new birth. David was born again by the word of God he said things like " thy word hath quickened me" or thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee, (compare this with 1 John 3:9)

and jesus called Judas one of his sheep sent to the lost sheep. Jesus said he gives unto hsi sheep eternal life and they know him. And before the cross Jesus said of the believers

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,..." John 17:12

consider

No one was or is saved because of a prayer ...no one was or is saved without the cross of Christ...

 

[LoveofTruth]

No Christ knew who Judas was from the beginning ...

Jesus knows all but that doesnt negate the fact that Judas was once called a sheep by jesus and sent to the lost sheep, and that Judas was once his familiar friend in whom he once trusted, as SCRIPTURE CLEARLY STATES.


People shouldn't just ignore scripture and make their declarations against scripture.

In Matthew 10:1 we read,

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power...These twelve Jesus sent forth...16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep" Matthew 10

how can you deny these scriptures? Notice all 12 were "HIS" and all 12 were "sent forth " by jesus, and all 12 (Judas included) were sent forth by Jesus as "SHEEP".

Jesus gives eternal life unto His sheep as he said.

any answers for these clear scriptures, and can we stick to the text without jumping all around to other places first?

 

[LoveofTruth]

No one was or is saved because of a prayer ...no one was or is saved without the cross of Christ...

every OT saint, was saved by the cross ( in time) . It is only because Jesus would die for their sins in the future could they ave been saved then.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hi,

In regard to the fore-knowedge issue. The way I presented my argument (before) there is no need for foreknowledge on behalf of God. God can use some one who has become debase, to fulfill his purpose. As I suggested Judas through his free will had already sinned away his chance of redemption, and was thus chosen to be a vessle of wrath. God DID NOT make Judas a vessle of wrath, i.e. he was not born to be a vessle of wrath. He started out as good seed, the good seed that God sows, and he became evil. God then just forced judas to do his will. With this argument God preserves free will, the will to choose Christ (though he calls us), and his ordained will (prophecy) can be also fulfilled.

But if you must believe that God knows every thing that will happen, every little thing, then this is still possible with in a system of free will. If we dwell in a closed system, one on which God has put limits (to the limit of his processing power). He can still know and prophecy every possible out come.

Take the example of who I choose to marry:

There may be 10 suitable candidates for marriage for me. That will result in 10 possible choices. With my human knowledge I can know all of those outcomes (10 things are easy to remember). I essentually can know everything about the choice. Each of those people can, have a subset of children, yet even with in my human knowledge, I could know the possible out comes if I limited them to a similar subset. God is obviously dealing with a way lot more than 10 subsets of knowledge. But how smart is God? Who knows, he may be able to deal with an infinite number of subsets of knowledge.

But think about biblical prophecy for a minute is is so so general, it is not specific at all. God could easily manipulate choices to fulfill it. He does not have to know every minute detail of our future, he just has to put boundaries on where we live and what we do. Which I believe God has done.

Act 17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hi,

In regard to the fore-knowedge issue. The way I presented my argument (before) there is no need for foreknowledge on behalf of God. God can use some one who has become debase, to fulfill his purpose. As I suggested Judas through his free will had already sinned away his chance of redemption, and was thus chosen to be a vessle of wrath. God DID NOT make Judas a vessle of wrath, i.e. he was not born to be a vessle of wrath. He started out as good seed, the good seed that God sows, and he became evil. God then just forced judas to do his will. With this argument God preserves free will, the will to choose Christ (though he calls us), and his ordained will (prophecy) can be also fulfilled.

But if you must believe that God knows every thing that will happen, every little thing, then this is still possible with in a system of free will. If we dwell in a closed system, one on which God has put limits (to the limit of his processing power). He can still know and prophecy every possible out come.

Take the example of who I choose to marry:

There may be 10 suitable candidates for marriage for me. That will result in 10 possible choices. With my human knowledge I can know all of those outcomes (10 things are easy to remember). I essentually can know everything about the choice. Each of those people can, have a subset of children, yet even with in my human knowledge, I could know the possible out comes if I limited them to a similar subset. God is obviously dealing with a way lot more than 10 subsets of knowledge. But how smart is God? Who knows, he may be able to deal with an infinite number of subsets of knowledge.

But think about biblical prophecy for a minute is is so so general, it is not specific at all. God could easily manipulate choices to fulfill it. He does not have to know every minute detail of our future, he just has to put boundaries on where we live and what we do. Which I believe God has done.

Act 17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

I have problems with your view, and you need more scripture to prove this idea. Though our sins are red like scarlet they shall be white as snow. All sin can be forgiven as Jesus said, we cannot out sin God's grace. If a man sins 7 x70 in a day he can be forgiven, in other words as much as he needs and is repentant for, with a humble and broken heart of repentance and faith. If we confess our sins ( not just some sins , all sins at any time as long as we are alive) he will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I have problems with your view, and you need more scripture to prove this idea. Though our sins are red like scarlet they shall be white as snow. All sin can be forgiven as Jesus said, we cannot out sin God's grace. If a man sins 7 x70 in a day he can be forgiven, in other words as much as he needs and is repentant for, with a humble and broken heart of repentance and faith. If we confess our sins ( not just some sins , all sins at any time as long as we are alive) he will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.

I have thought about this and I believe you miss something. Jesus said the one who blasphemes the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness in this age or the age to come. But we have to understand what this blasphemy is, and is not. You are 100% right to say the cross covers all sins. It is available for a life time of sins, all our sin are covered, past present and future. But it is the one who believes, that is saved. Anyone who can believe, can be saved. It does not matter if a person has doubts, or a period of doubt, even feeling unsaved, if they can still hear God calling them then they can be saved by that belief. However there is a point in our lives where we no longer endure sound doctrine, we no longer respond to the Holy Spirits calls. At that point God no longer tries to save us from our unbelief, he just leaves us in it. One who has blasphemed the holy spirit (in this age) is one who has continually denied God's call to believe in the cross. I am not saying, even, that a person may have at some point done this and cant be saved, anyone who is willing and obedient will be saved. But some have not the knowledge of Jesus, they have denied the cross, they will never believe. But let me stress, any one reading this and thinking you can't be saved, that is wrong, if you believe right now you will be saved. The unpardonable sin, is to have fully denied Christ, over, and over again, to the point you can no longer respond to the message of the cross, which is available right now.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

To try to flesh out my point of view. Think about this:

When does the cross run out for a person? The point of death? No the point of belief.

If men stopped believing at the point of death, we would have people dropping dead in church on a constant basis. And people dropping dead, while visiting Christian forums. There are many unbelievers, people not redeemable in the world, ones who have stopped believing. God has given up on some, yet they still live, years, months. Time is irrelevant to God. Judas, may have given up believing as a child, as a teenager, as an adult, in that state of unbelief he became a vessle of wrath.

I will describe how I see Romans:

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God uses some for honor, some dishoner, based upon what? He God, "endured with much longsuffering the vessles of wrath".

God patiently waited for the vessles of wrath to repent, over a long period, they did not repent, so God used them for his purpose, a bad purpose, a wrathful one. Judas was a vessle of wrath, the WAS a DEVIL when Jesus called him, he was not a believer. But he was not MADE a devil. He (Judas) choose to be a devil, so was taken out by God, used by God to be the traitor prophesied in the OT.

 

[LoveofTruth]

To try to flesh out my point of view. Think about this:

When does the cross run out for a person? The point of death? No the point of belief.

If men stopped believing at the point of death, we would have people dropping dead in church on a constant basis. And people dropping dead, while visiting Christian forums. There are many unbelievers, people not redeemable in the world, ones who have stopped believing. God has given up on some, yet they still live, years, months. Time is irrelevant to God. Judas, may have given up believing as a child, as a teenager, as an adult, in that state of unbelief he became a vessle of wrath.

I will describe how I see Romans:

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

God uses some for honor, some dishoner, based upon what? He God, "endured with much longsuffering the vessles of wrath".

God patiently waited for the vessles of wrath to repent, over a long period, they did not repent, so God used them for his purpose, a bad purpose, a wrathful one. Judas was a vessle of wrath, the WAS a DEVIL when Jesus called him, he was not a believer. But he was not MADE a devil. He (Judas) choose to be a devil, so was taken out by God, used by God to be the traitor prophesied in the OT.

romance 9 I find, is greatly misunderstood . A vessel of wrath is those who do not come to God by faith as the whole chapter is showing , read the last few verses Paul sums up his argument

Also read this verse

2 Timothy 2:21 >>
If a man therefore purge himselffrom these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Showing that a man becomes z vessel of dishonour by not walking in faith and having God in him for God is the one who works in believers and makes them perfect into every good work. This only happens by faith and in faith we must yield to the Spirit not the flesh this is done by dying daily , the cross life drying ungodliness etc in grace following the grace of God that teaches us this . Then the life of Christ is manifest in our lives . This is a vessel of honour . A vessel of dishonour has unbelief and does not walk in Christ but sin and the works of the flesh seeking to be justified by the works of the law . This is what Rans 9 is about , the Jews thought they could be saved by the law and would ask Gid "why did you make us like this' but God can choose his way of salvation for men

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

No all OT saints were SAINTS ( godly ) before Christ death but not without his death in time. David had salvation and when he had sin he prayed for forgiveness and asked God to restore unto him the joy of his salvation. David also asked God to CREATE IN him a clean heat and to renew a right spirt within him. This is the new birth. David was born again by the word of God he said things like " thy word hath quickened me" or thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee, (compare this with 1 John 3:9)

and jesus called Judas one of his sheep sent to the lost sheep. Jesus said he gives unto hsi sheep eternal life and they know him. And before the cross Jesus said of the believers

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,..." John 17:12

consider

I know we are supposed to look back at the OT with NT lens, but Jesus makes it pretty clear that salvation is only through him. David wasn't saved, David asked for forgiveness for his transgressions.[I am assuming this is the Bathsheba incident?] Now did Judas ask Jesus for forgiveness? I don't know I wasn't there with Judas before he hung himself. The NT isn't too clear on that.

I am not getting the last part of your post, because it is contradicting your premise in the OP. So did Judas lose his salvation or not?

 

[Strong in Him]

I know we are supposed to look back at the OT with NT lens, but Jesus makes it pretty clear that salvation is only through him.

Yes it is. But there is a tradition, based I think on Scripture but I'm not sure which one, that during his 3 days in the tomb Jesus descended to the dead and preached to all those who had died before his coming and before they had a chance to hear the Gospel.

David wasn't saved, David asked for forgiveness for his transgressions.

?? Even when we're saved we need to ask for forgiveness for our sins.

Now did Judas ask Jesus for forgiveness?

I doubt that he asked Jesus; Matthew says that he hung himself when he saw that Jesus had been condemned (Matt 27:3). But personally I believe that his actions - in giving back the money, saying that he had betrayed an innocent man and then taking his life - showed his remorse. And even if Jesus hadn't been able to say, "I forgive you", God surely saw, and knew, how he felt.

Also, salvation is through Jesus and through believing that he died for our sins on the cross. But Jesus forgave people's sins before he went to the cross. So if they had died before Jesus could finish the work of salvation, they would, surely, have been saved? As far as we know, no one was able to pronounce forgiveness for Judas, nor assure him of God's ability to forgive, but does that mean that God didn't, or couldn't, in fact forgive Judas for his actions - especially as he did show remorse?

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Yes it is. But there is a tradition, based I think on Scripture but I'm not sure which one, that during his 3 days in the tomb Jesus descended to the dead and preached to all those who had died before his coming and before they had a chance to hear the Gospel.

I was going to bring that up, but you said it yourself.

?? Even when we're saved we need to ask for forgiveness for our sins.

I think things worked a little different in the OT. God's character never changes, but how God does things do, in fact, change. This does not contradict His nature.

I doubt that he asked Jesus; Matthew says that he hung himself when he saw that Jesus had been condemned (Matt 27:3). But personally I believe that his actions - in giving back the money, saying that he had betrayed an innocent man and then taking his life - showed his remorse. And even if Jesus hadn't been able to say, "I forgive you", God surely saw, and knew, how he felt.

Also, salvation is through Jesus and through believing that he died for our sins on the cross. But Jesus forgave people's sins before he went to the cross. So if they had died before Jesus could finish the work of salvation, they would, surely, have been saved? As far as we know, no one was able to pronounce forgiveness for Judas, nor assure him of God's ability to forgive, but does that mean that God didn't, or couldn't, in fact forgive Judas for his actions - especially as he did show remorse?

Yeah, I am not going to speculate on a situation I don't know entirely. Considering God is more complex than we understand. Consider his infinite mercy, but he also consumed Aaron's sons in a ball of fire for not lighting a fire right for sacrifices. That seems a bit extreme for a simple mistake right?....yet he is still infinitely merciful and just.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I know we are supposed to look back at the OT with NT lens, but Jesus makes it pretty clear that salvation is only through him. David wasn't saved, David asked for forgiveness for his transgressions.[I am assuming this is the Bathsheba incident?] Now did Judas ask Jesus for forgiveness? I don't know I wasn't there with Judas before he hung himself. The NT isn't too clear on that.

I am not getting the last part of your post, because it is contradicting your premise in the OP. So did Judas lose his salvation or not?

Hello again,

the last part of my post the qoute from John 17 is undeniable that all the 11 were saved at that time and Judas was lost then. But he was saved at the beginning, read John 17:6 Jesus say that they all belonged to the father and he gave them to Jesus.

also David was saved and so was Abraham and all OT saints. they were trusting in Gods righteouness not their own and that righteousness is Jesus Christ. These all died in Faith Hebrews 11. And faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for the EVIDENCE of things not seen. Christ in you is the hope of glory. And Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. All OT saints had to have the Spirit of Christ or they were none of his

and you need to go back to this verse that you avoided and allow this to be part of your understanding. Yes it will shake up alot of peoples understandings but consider

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,..." John 17:12 None except Judas in that context as the vesrse says. But i wanted to show the salvation part here before the cross.

 

[Tellastory]

Judas was written in the book of life and the ones in that book were only the righteous, as scripture says, he was blotted out of the book of life "and bot written with the righteous".

If you are referring to Revelation 3:5, you may want to take a look at the Greek text that "not" was translated from.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B66C003.htm

At the link above, scroll down to verse 5 where the Greek texts are mirroring that verse and then click on "ov un" & you may find this actual meaning from which "not" was undertranslated from below.

i.e. ou - ou 3756 and mh - me 3361; a double negative strengthening the denial; not at all:--any more, at all, by any (no) means, neither, never, no (at all), in no case (wise), nor ever, not (at all, in any wise). Compare mh ouk - me ouk 3378.

That means this consequence was never going to happen to any saved believer, and so, Judas Iscariot was never a saved believer, because Jesus was not crucified, risen, and had gone to the Father yet to send the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost for any man to be saved and be brought to Heaven by Christ as our Passover Lamb.

This is also like predestination, God predestined the "PLAN of Salvation " for all those he foreknew who would repent and believe. The plan was to be formed to the image of his son, that is where they would end up and Gods plan for them. This would be their final destination if they abide in him. God has predestined that all those who believe in him and continue in the faith until the end, shall be conformed to the image of His Son.

And yet you say this....

I disagree strongly here . All OT saints were saved and so were the apostles before the cross ( but not without the cross) .

Scripture has a different testimony; even Jesus's parable of the rich man & the beggar, Lazarus, tells us that Abraham's bosom was located beneathe the earth, but not in hell, but across the great chasm from hell. This is where all the O.T. saints have been in "holding area" aka a prison as testified below from which they need Jesus Christ to escape from.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient,...

Proof that the spirits of the O.T. saints were beneathe the earth is:

1 Samuel 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.....11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

Why was this so? Only Christ can bring us to God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So the only way any one can have that citizenship in Heaven is by being born again by believing in the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

And so by looking to the Son lifted up into Heaven that by looking to Him to call on Him to be saved, he saves every believer from Heaven by sending the promise from the Father, the baptism of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost. Christ had to lead the way into Heaven for this citizenship to be obtained as He is giving that seal of adoption to believers. That is why His remaining disciples were not "officially saved yet" and why Judas Iscariot never was saved by Him when Jesus testified that Judas did not believe in Him to receive that promise of the "permanent indwelling" Holy Ghost.

So verse 13 testifies that no O.T. saint has gone to Heaven yet at the time of Jesus when He was on earth. Look at what had happened at His resurrection.

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Here's the why...

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

And so this is why the remaining disciples, excluding Judas Iscariot, were not saved until Pentecost.

The words the Holy Ghost was not yet given. Refer to the baptism with the Holy Ghost . This is different than all men having the Spirit of Christ or the Spirit of the Farher . Jesus said it was the Spirit of the Father ( not the Holy Ghost ) that would speak in them. This is said in Matthew 10 .

If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Abraham had the same Spirit of Vhristcas every believer Gakatians 3

Abraham did not have the Spirit of Christ yet since Christ had not died, rose, & ascended yet, but Jesus has him now and the rest of the O.T. saints since His resurrection but He still had to lead the way into Heaven by ascending first.

When Jesus told the crucified thief that he would be with Him in Paradise that day, He was talking about Abraham's bosom. Now that Jesus has risen and ascended, Paradise, that holding area, is now located in Heaven....

2 Corinthians 12:1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Of course, Paul was speaking of the apostle John whom had written the Book of Revelation as led by the Holy Spirit.

This holding area in Heaven is necessary until the pre trib rapture when the O.T. saints join with His abiding disciples to attend the Marriage Supper when they all receive their first inheritance as vessels unto honour in His House.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Also Judas was a sheep sent to the list sheep showing clearly that he had eternal life and was saved

Judas Iscariot was never testified as a sheep by Jesus. He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but Jesus had a different lable for him: " a devil".

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him....68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

And "a son of pedition".

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

So the Father had never given Judas Iscariot for Jesus to keep. May He helps you to see that truth in John 17:12 & below.

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[LoveofTruth]

If you are referring to Revelation 3:5, you may want to take a look at the Greek text that "not" was translated from.

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B66C003.htm

At the link above, scroll down to verse 5 where the Greek texts are mirroring that verse and then click on "ov un" & you may find this actual meaning from which "not" was undertranslated from below.

what? no I am referring to Psalms 69 as it was also referred to about Judas in that Psalm in Acts 1. This truth is undeniable.

And the fact that the believers in Revelation 3 will "NOT" be blotted out. Is only if they are overcomers. It is true that all believers who continue in the faith and this is how they overcome as Christ works in them and they purge themselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit because they have this hope in themselves. But the warning is for those who will not overcome ( or continue in faith) they will be blotted out is the obvious context and meaning. We see that a person can have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the Living God then Christ shall profit them nothing Hebrews 3. They are only made partakers of Christ if they hold the beginning of their confidence in Him steadfast till the end.

That means this consequence was never going to happen to any saved believer, and so, Judas Iscariot was never a saved believer, because Jesus was not crucified, risen, and had gone to the Father yet to send the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost for any man to be saved and be brought to Heaven by Christ as our Passover Lamb.

What? I marvel at how men can just miss some basic truths. The Holy Ghost baptism was not the salvation, but the power for ministry and they can now enter into the fullness and trough the veil of the temple and do not need a High Priest to enter for them. Salvation is in the word of God which is in Christ. The parable of the sower and the seed relates to this salvation. Some believe for a while and have joy because of the word and in time fall away. This shows that they were saved for a while as the parable says. Judas once belonged to the Father. John 17:6 I marvel at how some just ignore these verses and how they ignore Matthew 10, where Jesus called unto Him HIS 12 disciples..and he sent the 12 forth as sheep to the lost sheep. Very clear to the ones who haven't had their minds corrupted by false security doctrines.

And yet you say this....

and i said
"I disagree strongly here . All OT saints were saved and so were the apostles before the cross ( but not without the cross) ."

What? all OT saints were saved not by the individual being predestined, the plan was predestined that all those who believe would be conformed to the image of Gods Son. The OT saints had to repent and believe in Gods righteousness and the provision he gave. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. hey also had the animal sacrifices which typified that salvation. But many things were hid from them. But they too were hid with God in Christ as Abraham was and others.

Scripture has a different testimony; even Jesus's parable of the rich man & the beggar, Lazarus, tells us that Abraham's bosom was located beneathe the earth, but not in hell, but across the great chasm from hell. This is where all the O.T. saints have been in "holding area" aka a prison as testified below from which they need Jesus Christ to escape from.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient,...

Proof that the spirits of the O.T. saints were beneathe the earth is:

1 Samuel 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.....11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

Why was this so? Only Christ can bring us to God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So the only way any one can have that citizenship in Heaven is by being born again by believing in the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Wrong, they were in Christ, they were hid with Christ, and they had the hope in tem also, as we read

"26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Colossians 1:26,27

This "mystery" of Christ in you the hope of glory was there but hidden in mystery. All OT saints had this hope in them as we read

"16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:16,29

So Abraham as all OT saints had Christ in them. If they did not have Christ in them they would never belong to Him.

"...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9

"28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now." Galatians 4:28,29)

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

First notice in the section you quoted, that you MISSED "We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness." . Jesus would say the same thing to you as you try and tell him noone was born again yet.

I did not say they ascended up to heaven. Although Elijah was taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot but that's another discussion. But they were saved in Christ hid with him. The OT saints ate of the Spiritual Rock that followed them and that rock was Christ,

"1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Cor 10:1-4)

"officially saved yet" and why Judas Iscariot never was saved by Him when Jesus testified that Judas did not believe in Him to receive that promise of the "permanent indwelling" Holy Ghost.

what? this is your words "officially saved yet". they were saved and salvation is to be in Christ and have him in them. Jesus said to Judas and the others that they were sheep and His disciples sent forth. Jesus also said to Judas that he would have the Spirit of the father speaking in him when needed. You, as many seem to just run from the verses in Matthew 10 and go off into other stuff. Stick with the clear verses in Matthew 10 and let your other views fall to the ground and re arrange your doctrine to line up with truth. I think I may have to start a whole thread about the OT salvation and being born again. Also about the destiny of the unevangelized and how God reaches them.

So verse 13 testifies that no O.T. saint has gone to Heaven yet at the time of Jesus when He was on earth. Look at what had happened at His resurrection.

I didnt say they went to heaven yet. I said they were saved, by grace through faith and they all had life.

"1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.2 For by it the elders obtained a good report." Heb 11:1,2

"4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous" Heb 11:4

was Abel a child of God and saved? read 1 John 2: and 3

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible." Heb 11

But your eyes see Jesus said also. They saw because they were born again. Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God. But their eyes saw.


You other errors I will have to look at later i have to step out for now. But so much error it takes a long time to wade through it all. It all starts with your wrong understanding that the OT saints were not saved and born again and in Christ.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Here's the why...

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. 7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

And so this is why the remaining disciples, excluding Judas Iscariot, were not saved until Pentecost.

Wrong, the baptism with the Holy Ghost is not intial salvation. All the apostles were already saved before the cross John 17:6,8, 12 and then they got the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, power was given to them etc.

Abraham did not have the Spirit of Christ yet since Christ had not died, rose, & ascended yet, but Jesus has him now and the rest of the O.T. saints since His resurrection but He still had to lead the way into Heaven by ascending first.

Wrong again and you need to study to show thyself apporved unto God.

"preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying,...9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham...16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3

Abraham had Christ in him, the Seed is Christ and this is the same Seed all believers have. Born again by the seed or word of God. 1 Peter 1

"3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:" Romans 4

It is very clear in scripture that he and all OT saints were saved by grace through faith. Yes they didnt eneter heaven yet but i ever said they did. They were however born again and had the Spirit of Christ or they were none of his and they were saved. Hid with God in Christ. We see a type of this when the body of Moses was hid. The devil argued for the body of Moses. This I believe typifies the old testament saints. Christ had not died yet so the devil thought he had rights to them. But Michael said at that time the Lord rebuke you, he OT saints were baptised unto Moses. That represents the body of Moses. But they were hid with God in paradise because they were saved.

Judas Iscariot was never testified as a sheep by Jesus. He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but Jesus had a different lable for him: " a devil".

Again you lie and just make up your own ideas. This often happens when the eternal insecurity crowd hears these truths they get all in a fuss and stressed and start grasping at straws to defend their years and years of false teaching by some. And their whole assemblies division from others. But here is what Jesus said and you can deny it if you want, you have a free will, but i suggest you simply believe it and let your doctrines fall to the ground if they dont line up with truth.

"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples,..[HIS notice, all 12 not 11 and one devil, that happend later at the end of his ministry, Judas already belonged to the father before he was even given to Jesus John 17:6]...Now the names of the twelve apostles are... and Judas Iscariot, [Judas was also an apostle, sent of Jesus and this again shows that all 12 are spoken of here as clear as day] ...5 These twelve Jesus sent forth...[12 not 11 and one devil]...6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel [they were sent to the LOST sheep, notice the word "LOST" if they were lost also how could they help them. Can Satan cast out Satan? no and yet they were given power to cast out devils, Judas included. Can a lost sheep help a lost sheep get saved?, no, this shows that some were lost and some saved] ...16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: [Jesus sent all 12 Judas included forth as we just read and Judas was sent as well as a "SHEEP"." (Matthew 10)

I know this is troubling to those who are caught up in false doctrine but the scripture is so clear. Enough scripture twisting and denying, just believe it!!! These are some of the most clear verses showing a collapse of the OSAS doctrine and Calvinisms other points as well.

Sadly so many just run like chaft before the wind with these verses and avoid dealing with them all together. They will quote other verses that were said at the end of Jesus ministry etc like John 6 and other places. These were said three years or so after Judas began his ministry ..

I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

So the Father had never given Judas Iscariot for Jesus to keep. May He helps you to see that truth in John 17:12 & below.

No, all 12 were GIVEN to Jesus and one was lost as Jesus said. Judas became lost and fell away as Acts 1 says he "FELL" by transgression. How does a man fall if he is already fallen? Jesus clearly said all 12 were given to him by the Father. You are scripture twisting grasping desperately to try and fit this into your error. It doesnt fit.

"6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." John 17:6

and

Judas was clearly called a sheep by Jesus and one of those sheep gievn to Him by the father as we see here as well

""26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:26-2and a last reminder here Jesus said of Judas and the others

And again I reminds you of Jesus words to all 12 (Judas included, yes Judas included as the text clearly says)

"These twelve Jesus sent forth...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves" Matthew 10:

 

[LoveofTruth]

Judas Iscariot was never testified as a sheep by Jesus. He was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, but Jesus had a different lable for him: " a devil".

"These twelve [Judas included] Jesus sent forth...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves" Matthew 10:


I think you have to rethink your entire theology .

 

[rnmomof7]

No all OT saints were SAINTS ( godly ) before Christ death but not without his death in time. David had salvation and when he had sin he prayed for forgiveness and asked God to restore unto him the joy of his salvation. David also asked God to CREATE IN him a clean heat and to renew a right spirt within him. This is the new birth. David was born again by the word of God he said things like " thy word hath quickened me" or thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee, (compare this with 1 John 3:9)

and jesus called Judas one of his sheep sent to the lost sheep. Jesus said he gives unto hsi sheep eternal life and they know him. And before the cross Jesus said of the believers

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,..." John 17:12

consider

What denomination are you ??? I have no idea who is teaching this stuff

 

[Lavendar Frog]

What denomination are you ??? I have no idea who is teaching this stuff

I'd ask what pastor is teaching them this as well.

 

[Tellastory]

what? no I am referring to Psalms 69 as it was also referred to about Judas in that Psalm in Acts 1. This truth is undeniable.

Truth cannot be denied, but if the truth you perceived is going against scripture, then obviously, you are not reading it to be applying it rightly.

Let's be clear about the truth that this below is not specifically talking about Judas Iscariot since it is plural.

Psalm 69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents. 26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

Let us also acknowledge the truth that the book of the living is not the same thing as the book of life. To have their habitation desolate & their tents vacant is referring to the land of the living. It can be applied to Judas Iscariot, but hardly a winning argument about him being written in the actual Book of life. See the other reference for Judas.

Psalm 109:4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer. 5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love. 6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. 7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. 8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
Now this reference above you can definitely say is prophetical towards Judas Iscariot and letting his days be few is blotting him out of the book of the living. May God cause the increase for you to see that.

And the fact that the believers in Revelation 3 will "NOT" be blotted out. Is only if they are overcomers. It is true that all believers who continue in the faith and this is how they overcome as Christ works in them and they purge themselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit because they have this hope in themselves. But the warning is for those who will not overcome ( or continue in faith) they will be blotted out is the obvious context and meaning. We see that a person can have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the Living God then Christ shall profit them nothing Hebrews 3. They are only made partakers of Christ if they hold the beginning of their confidence in Him steadfast till the end.

I submit something that I can only hope God will help you to see, but if a professing believer does not depart from iniquity by looking to Him to overcome ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ), then they will be punished accordingly by being left behind at the pre trib rapture, but He will still overcome for them since our confidence is in Him to finish what He has started in them ( Philippians 1:6-11 & 2 Timothy 4:18 ). This is what designates the vessels unto dishonour in His House for not departing from iniquity: 2 Timothy 2:19-21 which is why God is judging His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 )

If the professing believer does not depart from iniquity, then the works thereon is burned up but the foundation remains; the physical body is destroyed, but the spirit is still saved to be received later on after the great tribulation. 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

What? I marvel at how men can just miss some basic truths. The Holy Ghost baptism was not the salvation, but the power for ministry

In Matthew 10, you are correct which is why that dwelling of the Holy Ghost was temporary. Judas was not saved & neither were the rest of disciples at that time.

BUT the actual baptism with the Holy Ghost that Jesus gives as promised from the Father can only be sent when Jesus was no longer among them but in Heaven.

John 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me. 34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come. 35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles? 36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come? 37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So... the disciples did not receive that promise yet until Pentecost and Judas Iscariot had never received that promise to be saved.

and they can now enter into the fullness and trough the veil of the temple and do not need a High Priest to enter for them.

I doubt they could get far doing that in their days when the Temple was standing; and so Jesus is the high priest that had to ascend first to Heaven to serve as our Passover Lamb in coming to God the Father. There is no other way.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Salvation is in the word of God which is in Christ. The parable of the sower and the seed relates to this salvation. Some believe for a while and have joy because of the word and in time fall away. This shows that they were saved for a while as the parable says. Judas once belonged to the Father. John 17:6 I marvel at how some just ignore these verses and how they ignore Matthew 10, where Jesus called unto Him HIS 12 disciples..and he sent the 12 forth as sheep to the lost sheep. Very clear to the ones who haven't had their minds corrupted by false security doctrines.

No. Look at what that verse says.

John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Judas had never kept His word.

Now for Matthew 10th chapter again... consider this.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Now; they received the Holy Ghost "again" and so I ask you; were they saved in Matthew 10th chapter or in John 20th chapter? Or neither?

John 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

So how can men be a new creature aka a new bottle?

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So when were the believers bought with a price?

Matthew 20:28Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So Jesus sent the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost when He has ascended to Heaven so that ALL believers were saved in the same way when God in Heaven saved us of those from among the living.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

So for new bottles to receive the new wine and not spill; but be sealed, Jesus had to pay the ransom and lead the way into Heaven before saving any one with the promise from the Father of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost. There is no other way to be reconciled to God by except by our Passover Lamb being in Heaven in saving future citizens on earth for the kingdom of heaven.

Cutting this reply short; and continuing with the rest of your post in the next reply; God be willing.