John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:

[californiadreamin]

Prosperity is living God's will and purpose for your life. We are all here for a God given purpose. Our intimacy with God will help to reveal that purpose that He has for us. Then it is our decision to obey God and put Him 1st in our life by pursuing His will and purpose in life. We have to lose life to gain life. We have to lose our will, our ideas, and our way of thinking and align it with God's will, God's word and God's way of doing things. And God will provide you with all the resources necessary to live that life He has for you. I don't agree that God doesn't want us to prosper. We are to be content with our lot in life, but we are to strive and desire more. Being content is maintaining what you have and thanking God for it. For example, If you and your family is living in a 1 bedroom apartment, you can still desire a house, but you are to take care of that apartment by keeping it clean, not complaining to God about it and instead thanking Him, paying the rent on time and paying the bills. If you prove to God that you are faithful with little He will bless you with more, like the house. Prosperity is not only material wealth. You can prosper spiritually in your walk with God, you can prosper in your health, you can posper in your relationships, you can prosper in your soul. You can psosper at work, at home. Everything you put your hands to should prosper if you meditate in His word - His word leads you to the promises of God and also to your convenant rights as a child of God. You are to be blessed so you can be a blessing to others. If you are sick, how can you teach someone else to be healthy, if you are poor, how can you teach someone else to prosper materially, if you have a bad marriage, how can you tell someone else how to save their marriage. Broaden your scope of prosperity. There are many truths in the Bible about prosperity. You have to feed yourself with the word and have a teachable spirit. Don't let the devil blind you to what you have a right to as a child of the King, I can't see God wanting a broken kingdom.

 

[californiadreamin]

Any Thoughts On This Topic?




John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:
But a wealth-and-prosperity doctrine is afoot today, shaped by the half truth that says, "We glorify God with our money by enjoying thankfully all the things he enables us to buy. Why should a son of the King live like a pauper?" And so on. The true half of this is that we should give thanks for every good thing God enables us to have. That does glorify him. The false half is the subtle implication that God can be glorified in this way by all kinds of luxurious purchases.

We are to honor God with our moneyMalachi 3:8Will a man rob or defraud God? Yet you rob and defraud Me. But you say, In what way do we rob or defraud You? [You have withheld your] tithes and offerings. Malachi 3:10Bring all the tithes (the whole tenth of your income) into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and prove Me now by it, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive itLuke 18:12I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I gain.Deuteronomy 26:10And now, behold, I bring the firstfruits of the ground which You, O Lord, have given me. And you shall set it down before the Lord your God and worship before the Lord your God; 2 Chronicles 31:5
As soon as the command went abroad, the Israelites gave in abundance the firstfruits of grain, vintage fruit, oil, honey, and of all the produce of the field; and they brought in abundantly the tithe of everythingProverbs 3:9
Honor the Lord with your capital and sufficiency [from righteous labors] and with the firstfruits of all your income

If this were true, Jesus would not have said, "Sell your possessions and give alms" (Luke 12:33).

15And He said to them, Guard yourselves and keep free from all covetousness (the immoderate desire for wealth, the greedy longing to have more); for a man's life does not consist in and is not derived from possessing [c]overflowing abundance or that which is [d]over and above his needs. We are not to be greedyand try to get wealth by any means(dishonestly) but do it by God's leading Deuteronomy 8:18But you shall [earnestly] remember the Lord your God, for it is He Who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day16Then He told them a parable, saying,Luke 12:16 The land of a rich man was fertile and yielded plentifully. 17And he considered and debated within himself, What shall I do? I have no place [in which] to gather together my harvest.18And he said, I will do this: I will pull down my storehouses and build larger ones, and there I will store all [e]my grain or produce and my goods.19And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have many good things laid up, [enough] for many years. Take your ease; eat, drink, and enjoy yourself merrily.20But God said to him, You fool! This very night [f] they [the messengers of God] will demand your soul of you; and all the things that you have prepared, whose will they be?(A) 21So it is with the one who continues to lay up and hoard possessions for himself and is not rich [in his relation] to God [this is how he fares].When you have wealth, you are to have a given spirit and not lay it up for yourself. It should go to wherever God wills it to go, for it is actually God's. We are to help with advancing the kingdom and for those in need.

He would not have said, "Do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink" (Luke 12:29).

We are not to worry about these things because God knows what we need before we ask Him. We are to seek His kingdom and righteousness and all these things he will give us.Luke 12:25And which of you by being overly anxious and troubled with cares can add a [g]cubit to his stature or a moment [unit] of time to his [h]age [the length of his life]?26If then you are not able to do such a little thing as that, why are you anxious and troubled with cares about the rest?31Only aim at and strive for and seek His kingdom, and all these things shall be supplied to you also 33Sell what you possess and give donations to the poor; provide yourselves with purses and handbags that do not grow old an unfailing and inexhaustible treasure in the heavens, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
He is talking about the things God has laid up for you in heaven that are in our promises and covenant with Him for the devil(the thief) cannot touch that whichGod has given us.

John the Baptist would not have said, "He who has two coats, let him share with who has none"(Luke 3:11).

When God blesses you you are to be a blessing to others. We are not to be greedy and keep everything to ourselves, but to be a cheerful giver

The Son of Man would not have walked around with no place to lay his head(Luke 9:58).

This is not a scripture about Jesus being poor, it tells that He had a purpose and He would not rest until it was accomplished. Jesus had an actual home, but He chose to do the Father's will which did not allow Him to have a steady home.

And Zacchaeus would not have given half his goods to the poor (Luke 19:8).

He didn't give all his possessions, but half, which showed he shared his wealth with the poor, He obeyed God with what God told Him to give, just as we do. There has been many times when God has told you to give a certain amount to your church, or a friend, or a relative, or even a stranger.

God is not glorified when we keep for ourselves (no matter how thankfully) what we ought to be using to alleviate the misery of unevangelized, uneducated, unmedicated, and unfed millions. The evidence that many professing Christians have been deceived by this doctrine is how little they give and how much they own. God has prospered them. And by an almost irresistible law of consumer culture (baptized by a doctrine of health, wealth, and prosperity) they have bought bigger (and more) houses, newer (and more) cars, fancier (and more) clothes, better (and more) meat, and all manner of trinkets and gadgets and containers and devices and equipment to make life more fun.

We are to give to who God tells us to give and how much God tells us to give. We must make sure we do not sow into bad soil. We shouldn't give to a church who is not anointed by God and is preaching false doctrine, or give to a homeless drug addict and he winds up spending the money on drugs. We have to sow in fruitful ground, thats why its important to hear from God on this matter. There are many charcaters in the bible that where wealthy after God molded them into what they ought to be.Hebrews 13:21Strengthen (complete, perfect) and make you what you ought to be and equip you with everything good that you may carry out His will; [while He Himself] works in you and accomplishes that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ (the Messiah); to Whom be the glory forever and ever (to the ages of the ages). Amen (so be it).

They will object: Does not the Old Testament promise that God will prosper his people? Indeed! God increases our yield so that by giving we can prove our yield is not our god. God does not prosper a man's business so he can move from a Ford to a Cadillac. God prospers a business so that 17,000 unreached peoples can be reached with the gospel. He prospers a business so that twelve percent of the world's population can move a step back from the precipice of starvation. quoted from Chap7 - Money: The currency of Christian Hedonism. Desiring God by John Piper

Proverbs 1:19 (Amplified Bible)So are the ways of everyone who is greedy of gain; such [greed for plunder] takes away the lives of its possessors Proverbs3:9,10 Honor the Lord with your capital and sufficiency [from righteous labors] and with the firstfruits of all your income; So shall your storage places be filled with plenty, and your vats shall be overflowing with new wine. This sounds like prosperity to me, and its because you gave and honored the Lord.

Have you read Proverbs about Godly Wisdom - It talks about prosperity in so many ways, not just materially, but including material prosperity. Also Psalms 112 tells about the righteousness of God.We as parents, would we want our children living poor and in need or prosperous? Why would our Heavenly Father want us to live broken? That makes no sense. I admit God will break you down, but all the while He is building you back up to be a vessel He can use for His will and purpose, and that is only for the mature Christian who has had their heart and faith tested and has passed the test.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have been reading John Bunyan's Pilgrims Progress and it has a sequence where Christian and Hopeful met up with a man called ByEnds. The explanatory note about this character was that it refers to a person who favours the comfortable side of Christianity and shies away from the suffering aspects of it.

Bunyan shows ByEnds as having two good friends: Mr MoneyLove and Mr HoldtheWorld, and they are connected with a town called Coveting.

Mr MoneyLove believes that to embrace Christianity in order to make a financial profit from it is quite okay and he believes that God is glorified by it. It is remarkably similar to the belief promulgated by the Prosperity Movement.

Christian counters Mr MoneyLove by saying that there was a character in the Old Testament called Shemech who saw the flocks and herds of [Abraham or Jacob; I am not sure which), and decided to have all his men circumcised. This was not to sincerely embrace the Jewish faith, but to pretend at being Jewish in order to get their share of the riches of Jacob. Christian also says that Judas Iscariot was only a disciple because he had his eyes on the money bag. And Ananias and Sapphira came to a sticky end because they held back part of what they owned instead of giving it all to the Apostles because of their love of possessions and greed. Their greed caused them to lie to the Holy Spirit.

So Christians [and Bunyan's] position is that it is hypocrisy to embrace and profess Christianity for the purpose of making money.

Bunyan introduces another character called Demas [reference to Demas who forsook Paul's team because he loved this present world too much]. This Demas lived on top of a hill called Lucre, and he invited people to come and mine for silver at it. But there was a deep pit with crumbling edges which could cause unwary people to fall to their destruction. Christian and Hopeful were not tempted, but along came Byends with his friends, and they turned aside with the hope of making money, and they slipped and fell into the pit and were seen no more.

From what I read in Pilgrims Progress, I am now convinced that the Prosperity movement is strongly rooted in a love of money and a desire to get the best from the world. It uses Christianity to achieve this. The Scripture says that the love of money is the root of all evil. Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all that he had and give it to the poor. In the New Testament, people who had houses and lands sold them and gave the proceeds to the Apostles who distributed them to those who were in need. The New Testament example is totally diametric to the Prosperity Movement. This is why I firmly believe that the Prosperity Movement is connected with Demas who abandoned Paul because he loved the world and its riches too much.

I believe that those who are strongly rooted into the Prosperity Movement are close friends and supporters of Demas, ByEnds, MoneyLove, and HoldtheWorld. Their home base is the town of Coveting, and their journey is not on the way to the Celestial City of God, but on a sideroad that will lead to a series of quicksands and pits that will smother and destroy them.

I think that Christians in general should be warned of this dangerous deception.

 

[Kellentia]

That's an interesting view... I agree in principle. If God gives, of course we gratefully receive it. You're spot on. But that's assuming God gives that gift... there are times when we won't receive those things... and I understand I am conversing with moderates who aren't the kind of people who pray , God give me a bigger house or a fancy car but instead would pray God grant what you will, and I receive. That's the right attitude to have... but of course remember that the bible does say that we should also expect persecutions. So in accepting all the Father has to offer, we must also receive suffering. As per usual my 2c.

Oh, persecutions would be attacks from people coz of our faith, like people outcasting u coz ur christian and won't do 'worldly' stuff, that kinda thing. People head-hunting you.....etc......not being accepted by the world in otehr words. That's the type of persecution to expect.

Also, we will also go through trials and tribulations........problems, stress, troubles, but the thing is that God has already given us the victory in Christ. So like the Joshua and Caleb, don't look at the giants in the land. The bigger the giants, the bigger the fruits......the bigger the rewards! (giants = problems) So go forth and battle in faith, knowing full well that God has granted u the victory.

(Have i gone out of topic?? Oops....)

 

[LivingWorship]

My brother, if you have more than your needs supplied (sso that you nare not only able to take care of yourself and your family) then you are prospering. If you have peace in your heart and you are winning people to the Lord then you are prospering.

True. I do feel that... I certainly feel Psalm 23 loud and clear! Praise Him.

I have a quote by Hagin somewhere where he points out that prosperity or "being rich" does not necessarily mean being a millionaire. This is how I understood the message of prosperity when I first heard it back in 1985. I was also taught that not everyone would be a millionaire but some have a calling on their life to be prosperous businessmen for the Kingdom's sake. I want to be one of God's millionaires but I am not there yet. But I assure you that I have plenty and that our family is a giving family, which I believe that you and your soon-to-be wife are.

Praise GOd, I hope so VW. That's a pretty fair and balanced view on it... you're right and that's the element I grappled with in the past - which I am sure you may well remember... how can you say it's a prosperity teaching for the whole Kingdom if not everyone gets "RICH?" "PROSPEROUS?" It's all come down to definition and understanding the heart behind it... I think you may have it - the key is peace and your own provision being met. Praise God for your family... praying mine will follow suit, amen!

This is what I want people to understand is the main emphasis amongst the prosperity teachers that I personally listen to and this is the message that I embrace. It is unfortunate that some on TV and some Christians make the message to be a selfish "gotta get mine fo' mahself" message. It gives us a bad rep. But I will fight against the stereotypes as well as the imbalance because I refuse to allow the whole teaching to be painted with one broad brush.

Yup. One bad apple spoils the lot.. but in this case, one bad apple gives the rest a bad name... if only more WoFers like you could be heard - all we hear here in Oz is the extremists who distort the message! Ah well, God will have His day.

I only find it perplexing that so many are so willing to accept the negative stereotypes about faith and prosperity preachers and do not bother to look at the full picture. God bless my brother.

To be honest, mate I don't find it surprising at all. You think about your own life... you get a series of compliments in a day, and right at the end cop a tirade of abuse from just one person. What stands out more? The negative. It's like a white page that suddenly acquires a black dot. It's only a dot but HOW, doesn't it grab our attention!!!! Same here, and I apologise for reducing a spiritual matter down to simplistic logic. However I really believe - no, from experience I KNOW - that ignorance and negativism are perhaps the greatest source of angst in the Pentecostal movement - when people don't understand they simply get negative and that spreads like wild fire. Shame... o well, can only pray on that!

Have a great day!

 

[LivingWorship]

Oh, persecutions would be attacks from people coz of our faith, like people outcasting u coz ur christian and won't do 'worldly' stuff, that kinda thing. People head-hunting you.....etc......not being accepted by the world in otehr words. That's the type of persecution to expect.

Also, we will also go through trials and tribulations........problems, stress, troubles, but the thing is that God has already given us the victory in Christ. So like the Joshua and Caleb, don't look at the giants in the land. The bigger the giants, the bigger the fruits......the bigger the rewards! (giants = problems) So go forth and battle in faith, knowing full well that God has granted u the victory.

(Have i gone out of topic?? Oops....)

no, I think you've addressed that quite well!

 

[LivingWorship]

"wave:

Hi Oscarr...

So Christians [and Bunyan's] position is that it is hypocrisy to embrace and profess Christianity for the purpose of making money.

Firmly agree. However where does that leave paying our pastors? Providing for our messengers from God. I'll be the first to admit I have little time for Joyce Meyer and Benny Hinn and countless other TV preachers. But even some of them, I am not convinced they're just in it for the money. Heck, they're that good at MOTIVATIONAL speaking they'd surely command BIG bucks OUTSIDE the church... just a thought. But in short, yes, Christianity is not FOR making money, rather, God will supply what it is we need to live and to carry out His work.

From what I read in Pilgrims Progress, I am now convinced that the Prosperity movement is strongly rooted in a love of money and a desire to get the best from the world. It uses Christianity to achieve this. The Scripture says that the love of money is the root of all evil. Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all that he had and give it to the poor. In the New Testament, people who had houses and lands sold them and gave the proceeds to the Apostles who distributed them to those who were in need. The New Testament example is totally diametric to the Prosperity Movement. This is why I firmly believe that the Prosperity Movement is connected with Demas who abandoned Paul because he loved the world and its riches too much

I think that Christians in general should be warned of this dangerous deception.[/size]

Hmm... I am going to have to disagree here... the roots of the Prosperity movement are NOT a love of money... or should I say the real prosperity teaching is not rooted in a love of money. In fact, you talk to those on these boards, I guarantee they are not into that. The big problem is that you and I are only really aware of this doctrine via the mega churches and the TV preachers. And many of them are so off the wall it's no wonder so many people are turned off the WOF movement and even Pentecostal/charismatic Christianity to start with! That's where the love of money seems to stem from.

On the NT examples with the apostles selling everything, have I sold everything? Have you? I'm not pointing the finger, I'm simply saying it's such a different set of circumstances, they were under such heavy persecution from Rome that the church had to be out of sight... that's not a problem you and I face ATM - of course all of that can change just like a snap of your fingers. BUT we're blessed in our western society right this moment.

I think you're right, there's certainly a lot of deception going around but it's much to do with the spin on this doctrine, not the doctrine itself. I can't really find too much wrong in general with the prosperity doctrine - but I personally hold to a more moderate view. I am dead against the opulence we see with these TV preachers... but I do believe God will supply what we need to carry out His work and to live. The TV preachers IMO are deceiving us, and in doing so make the prosperity gospel look more like a blab-and-grab gospel. just my 2cents worth, God bless you bro

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paying the pastor of your church a living wage comes under a completely different principle. "The labourer is worthy of his hire." There is nothing wrong with hiring a full time professional to run the church, because someone working full time can accomplish so much more with visiting, sermon preparation, etc. This is not in the same league as a person using Christianity to make a profit out of it. The pastor is the same as any other worker in the harvest field. Yes, there are many pastors who are self supporting with jobs in the secular world as well, and God bless them for their committment and hard work; but there are definite blessings in having a full time, paid pastor or minister as well.

Prosperity in the Christian faith is okay for me if it comes as a byproduct through the providence of God, and it is not a reason for adopting Christianity as your lifestyle. The heart of man is desperately wicked and who can know it? Motivation is a deceptive thing, and sometimes it takes supernatural discernment to know whether someone is sincere and prosperous in their Christian faith, or are just giving lip service to Christianity for profiteering purposes.

We had politicians in New Zealand in the 1970s (during the Jesus Movement) who made sure that people saw them carrying a New Testament so that they could get the growing Christian vote. These politicians made no real profession of Christianity and did nothing to support the Christian church in the performance of their duties.

Covetousness is a very deceptive sin, and we always have to be on guard against it.

 

[godson777]

all we hear here in Oz is the extremists who distort the message!

Are you serious?

What about Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Joyce Meyer, Creflo Dollar and Brian Houston? These are all regularly seen on Australian tv and I have never heard one of them distort the prosperity teahcing to be a selfish materialistic teaching.

 

[LivingWorship]

That's a very astute post, Oscarr. I see your point mate

Just a question... not to stir up a hornet's nest here... I'm not asking for names, I'm going to just ask do you believe there are people doing just that, Oscarr? Using the Kingdom for their advantage?

Godson, mate I have two words for you: HILLSONG CONFERENCE. There have been incredible blessings to me in that week - and there have been some things that have left me dumbstruck... I get all these speakers doing offering talks... all telling me that I need to give, I will get blessed - do I need God to release funds into my ministry? Just give to this! Do I have dreams that require God's financial help? Then just give to that...

You know, the conference just gone, Brian come out and said we need $2.5 mill to do this conference... now with registrations all done and the rest of it, we still need $700,000 in offerings... and then he adds O we'll still do the conference if we run at a loss but we need your money. Fair call... but I did a little count... there were supposed to be 28,000 delegates. WOW! 9000 were early bird - ie, during the last conference, you could get into this one at half price - $140. Come the Saturday after conference, rates are about $200... and then in the last 6 months, the rates are $260. If you were to assume everyone paid $200 except for the early birds... the registration takings would amount to over $5 million - from registrations alone. According to the Sydney Morning Herald - and I cannot vouch for how accurate they were, c'mon it's a newspaper! - last conference Hillsong was supposed to have taken $9 million - probably in turnover... there would be things to pay for, I completely understand all that. BUT why not just come out and say it??? I'm sorry if this seems like slander, it's just that I can't understand why someone can't just tell the truth. Anyway... as per usual my 2 cents worth.

Let me say I've heard Joyce and others say things but not to the extent that I'm convinced they are the "extremists" ... but things I have read about Hinn, Rodney Howard Browne, Joel Osteen and others... and yes, it's traditionalists who have come out and said those things... but it makes you think. Anyways I maintain I hold to a moderate view of this doctrine... I believe there are people who are distorting this doctrine and giving it a seriously bad name. Forgive me should I offend anyone here. peace brothers and sisters

 

[JimB]

If I’m a Masai warrior in Kenya and become a Christian am I prosperous because I own two cows (one to give away and one for my family) instead of just one? Do I have to own a 15,000 sq. ft. house and a fleet of BMW’s? Is prosperity relative to the culture or is it prosperity only by my American definition?

\o/

 

[non-religious]

[Jim M]If I’m a Masai warrior in Kenya and become a Christian am I prosperous because I own two cows (one to give away and one for my family) instead of just one? Do I have to own a 15,000 sq. ft. house and a fleet of BMW’s? Is prosperity relative to the culture or is it prosperity only by my American definition?

Although the desire to be financially comfortable is largely a world view, it is also relative, especially in regard to the differences between the developed and developing worlds. In certain parts of Africa where poverty and lack are commonplace, prosperity may take on a completely different meaning. For example, a man can be married, have a family and live in a hut, eating off the land. Yet in his eyes he is incredibly prosperous. To those of us more accustomed to a life with a bank balance, pension, overheads, salaries, material possessions etc... prosperity will mean something else. Although poverty exists in our communities, would your average man who struggles to provide for his family call himself prosperous? I doubt it, but if he sees the roof over his head and the food that makes it to his table and the clothes on his back as a blessing and soemthing to be thankful for, perhaps then he can see where he has prospered.

 

[victoryword]

Paying the pastor of your church a living wage comes under a completely different principle. "The labourer is worthy of his hire." There is nothing wrong with hiring a full time professional to run the church, because someone working full time can accomplish so much more with visiting, sermon preparation, etc. This is not in the same league as a person using Christianity to make a profit out of it. The pastor is the same as any other worker in the harvest field. Yes, there are many pastors who are self supporting with jobs in the secular world as well, and God bless them for their committment and hard work; but there are definite blessings in having a full time, paid pastor or minister as well.

Prosperity in the Christian faith is okay for me if it comes as a byproduct through the providence of God, and it is not a reason for adopting Christianity as your lifestyle. The heart of man is desperately wicked and who can know it? Motivation is a deceptive thing, and sometimes it takes supernatural discernment to know whether someone is sincere and prosperous in their Christian faith, or are just giving lip service to Christianity for profiteering purposes.

We had politicians in New Zealand in the 1970s (during the Jesus Movement) who made sure that people saw them carrying a New Testament so that they could get the growing Christian vote. These politicians made no real profession of Christianity and did nothing to support the Christian church in the performance of their duties.

Covetousness is a very deceptive sin, and we always have to be on guard against it.

Oh, that's good Oscarr. Let's determine the validity and godliness of a teaching by a comparison to a piece of Christian Fiction

Now I have heard everything.

 

[Shalia]

TOL, can I have my ten foot pole now? I'll sign whatever I need to...

 

[handmaiden97]

here is my 2 cents, I like John Piper artical, infact in much his writtings he has a grasp of God's heart, not just to pour out His love and blessing on His children but to draw all men unto Himself.

Does God want to bless us....of course go back to the promise God made Abraham. I will bless you and make your name great......but why? So that all the nations will be blessed through you. Yes God blessees us, we are blessed to be a blessing. Not to horde God's blessing.

 

[JimB]

Although the desire to be financially comfortable is largely a world view, it is also relative, especially in regard to the differences between the developed and developing worlds. In certain parts of Africa where poverty and lack are commonplace, prosperity may take on a completely different meaning. For example, a man can be married, have a family and live in a hut, eating off the land. Yet in his eyes he is incredibly prosperous. To those of us more accustomed to a life with a bank balance, pension, overheads, salaries, material possessions etc... prosperity will mean something else. Although poverty exists in our communities, would your average man who struggles to provide for his family call himself prosperous? I doubt it, but if he sees the roof over his head and the food that makes it to his table and the clothes on his back as a blessing and soemthing to be thankful for, perhaps then he can see where he has prospered.

And there are many factors that enter into it. Many, many people (Christians) cannot control their impulse for toys. IOW, they consume it on their lusts (James 4.3). Would God give such a person wealth? If He gave that person a million dollars they would spend $2-million and be in worse condition than they were before He “blessed” them. Or would God only give a responsible believer wealth?

\o/

 

[victoryword]

here is my 2 cents, I like John Piper artical,

Even though the article clearly misrepresented (or at the least, broadbrushed) the people he was supposedly refuting?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Just to answer LivingWorship's question:

I won't name the church because of the large number of sincere Christians who go it. The pastor of this church (about 2000 people or more) is paid a six figure salary, probably more than the Prime Minister of our country, lives a lavish lifestyle - all paid for from the offerings of his church. The church has a pyramid leadership with him at the top. He is the founder of the church, and it is largely built around his personality.

When you think that the standard Presbyterian or Baptist minister (those I know about) gets around $35,000 NZ (reduce it by about 30 percent to get USD, and divide it by 3 to get British pounds to put it into an international perspective), then I think that a six figure salary is excessive for a person who is supposed to be called to the ministry and who would be expected to be paid enough to meet his or her needs.

The average worker in New Zealand gets $35-40,000 a year, and I think that paying a pastor a salary in that salary band it quite acceptable. But seeing a pastor with the influence has has on such a large church taking home over a hundred thousand dollars a year from the church funds for his own use is certainly profiting very well from his Christian service!

Of course this is small bickies compared to the income of some of these American TV evangelists who take home millions of dollars from the hard earned income of the faithful, but by New Zealand standards it is enough to see the difference between a faithful man of God getting his and his family's needs met during the course of his ministry, and another guy raking in the dough through his strong control of the church he is running.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about the man. He has thousands of dedicated followers and disciples who think he is the best pastor that they have ever had, and hang on his every word when he preaches, so I guess that the real judge of these matters is the Lord, and I could be sinning through envy wishing that I could get a salary like that for myself.

 

[LivingWorship]

here is my 2 cents, I like John Piper artical, infact in much his writtings he has a grasp of God's heart, not just to pour out His love and blessing on His children but to draw all men unto Himself.

Does God want to bless us....of course go back to the promise God made Abraham. I will bless you and make your name great......but why? So that all the nations will be blessed through you. Yes God blessees us, we are blessed to be a blessing. Not to horde God's blessing.

i agree, handmaiden, but then it comes back to interpretation because more people who hold to prosperity teaching will say precisely the same thing. And many of them actually live by it.

Oscarr still mulling over your post, thank you for being honest but not naming names. Appreciate it.

 

[Andry]

If I’m a Masai warrior in Kenya and become a Christian am I prosperous because I own two cows (one to give away and one for my family) instead of just one? Do I have to own a 15,000 sq. ft. house and a fleet of BMW’s? Is prosperity relative to the culture or is it prosperity only by my American definition?

\o/

I'd be more prosperous than you if my cows had leather, a sunroof, and four-legged drive.