John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:

[JimB]

Jim, why do you HAVE to twist my words when you know that is not what I meant? Do I do this to anyone else? You know that is NOT what I was saying. I was saying that your nephew has the wrong motives and I was referring to the very passage of Scripture that you quoted.

I only answered you because I thought your question was sincere. I am coming close to not responding to some posts any more because they are nothing more than insulting and show no Christian character. So don't twist my words like that again.

And yes, I am rich.

I will try not to “twist” (a favorite word in this forum these days) your meaning. But I will tell you what I hear. I hear the prosperity message saying that it is God’s will for all believers to be rich. God wills it but not every Christian is rich. In fact, from my unscientific observation, Christians are no more or less wealthy than worldlings. Some of the richest are some of the most immoral (pick anyone in Hollywood or with a rap album in the stores). I would hazard a guess that the proportion of rich-to-poor is about the same in the church and in the world. In fact, some of the least wealthy Christians/people that I know personally in our community – and, not surprisingly, are also the most overextended on their credit – are people who strongly proclaim the prosperity message. We have a Rhema affiliate church with a Rhema alumnus for a pastor near us that strongly believes it and preaches it. Ironically, it is probably the poorest per capita church in their city made up of financially desperate people who want their ears tickled into believing there is a formula for wealth in the Bible. The only affluent person in the church is the pastor who has his kids in a nice private school, owns acreage, cattle, SUVs, ATVs, plasma TV, and almost any other toy you can think of. On Sundays his parking lot is filled with jalopies and cars with duct tape holding their headlights in except for the luxury car in the pastor’s parking spot. It is a joke in their city.

So, what’s wrong with this picture?

\o/



BTW, I am rich too and I don’t believe the prosperity message as it is offered in this forum (although I like Piper’s view a lot). But then “rich” is a subjective term isn’t it?

And BTW, Donald Trump is rich too.

 

[Andry]

Just curious, how rich is rich? In dollar terms please.

 

[Shalia]

I wouldn't say I'm rich... but every time we've had money worries, God has come thru. I start stressing and thinking things won't work out, and God comes thru and we are blessed and we are OK.

So in that way, I'm rich. I'm rich in God's blessing and in the fact that He takes care of me and my family.

Thank you, Lord!

 

[victoryword]

BTW, I am rich too and I don’t believe the prosperity message as it is offered in this forum (although I like Piper’s view a lot). But then “rich” is a subjective term isn’t it?

In what way is the prosperity message offered on this forum that you cannot agree with? I really don't understand this after providing quotes demonstrating how Piper has actually DISTORTED our view and actually presented the very view that most of us advocate.

Is there just some willing blindness to see the WoF propserity proponents in a bad light (this is not just aimed at Jim but all here opposed to the Faith-Prosperity message)?

 

[JimB]

In what way is the prosperity message offered on this forum that you cannot agree with? I really don't understand this after providing quotes demonstrating how Piper has actually DISTORTED our view and actually presented the very view that most of us advocate.

Is there just some willing blindness to see the WoF propserity proponents in a bad light (this is not just aimed at Jim but all here opposed to the Faith-Prosperity message)?

Would you explain for me or direct me to an online resource or post an article that will clearly spell it out as you believe it? That would be helpful.

\o/

 

[Shalia]

Agreeing w/ Jim. I don't understand the actual belief, so I try to stay out of these debates. I'm willing to learn though.

 

[Andry]

In what way is the prosperity message offered on this forum that you cannot agree with? I really don't understand this after providing quotes demonstrating how Piper has actually DISTORTED our view and actually presented the very view that most of us advocate.

Is there just some willing blindness to see the WoF propserity proponents in a bad light (this is not just aimed at Jim but all here opposed to the Faith-Prosperity message)?

Victoryword,
John Piper's ministry is not about bashing the prosperity doctrine. He is a highly regarded man of God amongst his peers, and very well rounded in most respects. If you're not familiar with him other than from this thread, I'd suggest you look up some of his writings. He is not like some other anti-prosperity ministers whose raison d'etre is to bash WoF'ers.

Not that you've asked, but my concerns with the prosperity doctrine is actually not the doctrine so much as the people who adhere to the doctrine. And just to be clear, not everyone. But my experience has not been from just hearsay, but rather, from 20+ years in a WoF church. From my experience (and if it's different in your experience, more power to you), my WoF peers believes God want them to be rich. But full stop.

They've ignored, forgotten, or don't understand the purpose of why God would want them to have money in the bank - and it's not "for my four and no more." It's not just to tithe and give some offerings, and I get to keep the rest either.

So I'd ask anyone, respectfully, please put a dollar figure on how much is rich.

(And yes I understand prosperity is not just about dollars.)

 

[enoch son]

Just curious, how rich is rich? In dollar terms please.

"My God owens the cattle on a thousand hills and all the gold and silver is His". Dad has a lot of money. And that the point it is His and has alway been His. Everything belongs to the King. Sometimes He will let me use some of it. But it is still the Kings. My relationship has nothing to do with the things. Good post andry.

 

[JimB]

To a West African I am rich beyond their dreams. To Bill Gates I am poor beyond definition. Myself, I am content with what the Lord has given me. It is more than enough. He is more than enough. It has never been about things because it should never be about things.

\o/

 

[TreeOfLife]

#

 

[LivingWorship]

To a West African I am rich beyond their dreams. To Bill Gates I am poor beyond definition. Myself, I am content with what the Lord has given me. It is more than enough. He is more than enough. It has never been about things because it should never be about things.

\o/

This is a great thought to ponder. I have heard it said that if you get at least 2 meals a day, have a roof to sleep under, a bed to sleep on, clothes to wear, and something else which escapes me... apparently you are in the richest 10 or 20% in the world! Amazing to think...

Andry mate you've said it well, I am personally fairly warm to Piper's teachings, what I've heard has been sound. The thing to remember is the essence of Wof and even prosperity has sound roots... it has some pretty bad proponents who are responsible for distorting the true ethos of that teaching, thus making it so on the nose for many a Christian - not to mention the world.

I personally hold to a moderate view of that doctrine, and like Andry and enoch son both said, God allows me usage of His resource, but in addition to providing for myself, the first priority is to consecrate whatever resource we have and use it as best we can for the glory of God... this is the main focus of the doctrine... being "rich" doesn't make you a better Christian -BUT neither does it make you a better Christian just because you are poor. If you are poor you may be more likely to rely on God but that's only a supposition - I cannot qualify that, people who are anti-WoF use the argument "why doesn't the prosperity doctrine work in the third world" and those who are pro-WoF and pro-prosperity will say "don't look at circumstances etc" and my view is God will get glory if you allow Him to use WHATEVER circumstance you are finding yourself in.

Let me qualify my view, and I'm sorry if this seems a ramble: I believe God wants our spiritual prosperity to be the focal point of all this... but God does grant physical prosperity or perhaps PROVISION is a better term... not too sure. I see Christians who seem flat broke giving God glory and doing great things, and i see Christians who seem flat broke doing the Kingdom a disservice with their attitude and commitment to Christ. I've seem "rich" or richer people also divided into these two camps... so while I believe riches can be a blessing from God, they can also be a curse - which suggests to me that God will use us wherever we are. Just my usual 2 cents worth

 

[victoryword]

Victoryword,
John Piper's ministry is not about bashing the prosperity doctrine.

Hi Andry

I understand what you are trying to say but allow me to share some thoughts with you.

Andry, whether or not Piper makes it his business to bash WoF on a consistent basis or if he just gave one refuation is sort of a moot point. I did not start this "Piper war." One person placed Piper's opinions concerning prosperity proponents on here and I refuted what I saw in his address as distortions and broad brushing. I really believe I have made my case and no one has been able to show me otherwise.

He is a highly regarded man of God amongst his peers, and very well rounded in most respects. If you're not familiar with him other than from this thread, I'd suggest you look up some of his writings. He is not like some other anti-prosperity ministers whose raison d'etre is to bash WoF'ers.

I have no doubt that he is a man of God and that he is worthy of the respect and admiration that he receives. I am somewhat familiar with his ministry. Unless this has changed or unless I have been misinformed, I remember that he embraced Calvinistic doctrine - a system of theology that I do not hide my disdain for. I have read some things written by him. The most disturbing was his article on 9-11. I even considered writing a rebuttal to it. Never got around to it though. Rest assured that the article took the "God was behind it in some mysterious way" approach.

This does not mean that I don't consider him to be a true man of God. It is to show that I am somewhat familiar with his ministry.

Not that you've asked, but my concerns with the prosperity doctrine is actually not the doctrine so much as the people who adhere to the doctrine. And just to be clear, not everyone. But my experience has not been from just hearsay, but rather, from 20+ years in a WoF church. From my experience (and if it's different in your experience, more power to you), my WoF peers believes God want them to be rich. But full stop.

I agree with you wholeheartedly here. If there one thing I found repugnant among many immature Word-Faithers that I met in the mid 80s was their lack of desire for soul-winning and their focus on believing God for material possessions. Incidently I NEVER saw this as being the fault of the Faith Teachers themselves since I had at that time been listening to tapes by Jerry Savelle on evangelism and was reading books by him and Norvelle Hayes on the subject. Also something I found unfortunate was that many pastors were out-of-balance with this message.

Nevertheless, I have books from even the late 70s where Faith Teachers addressed these imbalances. So many claim that Word-Faith does not do any "self- policing" (like denomination might). They may not have done enough, but there were some efforts made. I could name off the books but I'll save that for another time.

We at least have the late Kenneth E. Hagin Sr.'s book, The Midas Touch, a book that I recommend and promote (though I am not in full agreement with Hagin on everything in the book). Fred Price has written The Purpose of Prosperity which also addresses these issues. No doubt the saints go overboard and get selfish, and some preachers promote that selfishness. But Piper's article that broad brushed us all was unfair and needed to be addressed since it was brought on this forum.

They've ignored, forgotten, or don't understand the purpose of why God would want them to have money in the bank - and it's not "for my four and no more." It's not just to tithe and give some offerings, and I get to keep the rest either.

I agree wholeheartedly. If people are aiming for prosperity for the purpose of satisfying their own lusts, then they have missed the whole point.

So I'd ask anyone, respectfully, please put a dollar figure on how much is rich.

(And yes I understand prosperity is not just about dollars.)

I have never in my life and never will be a dollar figure on prosperity or being rich. On this very forum many times I have stated that "being rich" or "being prosperous" is having more than enough - enough for oneself and enough to give to others.

If anyone would actually take time out to read the quotes by Copeland that I provided (some of the posts here indicate tome that they haven't), you will see that he along with other prominent faith teachers do not put a dollar figure on it either. I even quoted Copeland on this very forum some time ago where he stated that to an African in a poor country, prosperity is not about a cadillac but having rain for his crops and being able to feed his family. Unfortunately, such quotes are easily forgotten and the same old accusations rise up again and again and we cover the same territory and answer the same questions to the same people time and agin. I suppose that is the nature of internet forums.

 

[victoryword]

I personally hold to a moderate view of that doctrine,

So do I.

If you are poor you may be more likely to rely on God but that's only a supposition - I cannot qualify that, people who are anti-WoF use the argument "why doesn't the prosperity doctrine work in the third world" and those who are pro-WoF and pro-prosperity will say "don't look at circumstances etc"

On the contray, my way has been to show that the doctrine does indeed work in Third world, or rather, Poverty stricken countries. It worked for Doctor Cho in a war torn Korea when there was nothing but poverty around them. Now many in his church are prosperous financially. My friend, Derek Vreeland has an essay on my web site about the preaching of prosperity in India. It was an Indian pastor who began teaching when he saw it in the BIBLE and before he ever read or listened to American prosperity teachers. Pat Robertson (who is not WoF) tells about a missionary in one of his books who was chastized by God for not teaching the poor natives in his church about tithing. When the pastor obeyed God and the people followed the teaching, they had the best crops and produce in their village. We can relate even more stories in this area.

I don't believe in the coput that perhaps some of my fellow wofers use. I believe in finding proof that it does work because it is supposed to work no matter what country one lives in.

Blessings.

 

[LivingWorship]

On the contray, my way has been to show that the doctrine does indeed work in Third world, or rather, Poverty stricken countries. It worked for Doctor Cho in a war torn Korea when there was nothing but poverty around them. Now many in his church are prosperous financially. My friend, Derek Vreeland has an essay on my web site about the preaching of prosperity in India. It was an Indian pastor who began teaching when he saw it in the BIBLE and before he ever read or listened to American prosperity teachers. Pat Robertson (who is not WoF) tells about a missionary in one of his books who was chastized by God for not teaching the poor natives in his church about tithing. When the pastor obeyed God and the people followed the teaching, they had the best crops and produce in their village. We can relate even more stories in this area.

Hey VW, great to be talking with you mate.

Fair call, like I said I am not well versed on what is going on around the world... I personally would like to prosper... I feel like I am in many areas but financially no. I have saved some cash but most of that will disappear in the not-too-distant future, as I am getting married and will need it for the wedding, house, so on... BUT I do feel God has remarkably provided, and at times, sure I have prospered... I don't know, perhaps it's even a definition thing. In many ways I do have more than enough I suppose.. hmm, LW needs to think I reckon! i agree on tithing, I have found when I have tithed properly I do have peace of mind and there doesn't seem to be much worry over what I need.

I don't believe in the coput that perhaps some of my fellow wofers use. I believe in finding proof that it does work because it is supposed to work no matter what country one lives in.

Me too. That's a good attitude to have whichever your doctrinal bias may be.

Blessings.

And you, my brother.

 

[Kellentia]

Hey guys, think about it this way. Jesus did sooooooooooo much, He SUFFERED sooooooooooo much so that we might enjoy an abundant life now, so shouldn't we make full use of whatever His given us? Or else what He did would be in vain. Its like, if your father bought a real nice and big house beautifully furnished for you, but you tell him, "Oh, no dad, i can't accept. I'm contented to stay in my rented one-room apartment."

Yes, you may be happy there, but will your father be happy? No! He'll feel sad that you don't want to accept his gift! And if he can't bless his son, who can he bless? Don't tell me he'd rather bless someone unrelated.

Its the same with God. For me, I'll go find out EVERYTHING that Jesus paid for me to have, so that His agony on the cross won't be wasted. Come'on, He suffered so much for us!!! The least we could do is to say thank you and humble ourselves and accept EVERYTHING His given us instead of saying, "thank you, but I'm happy the way I am." Its like a slap right into His face. Don't you think His endured enough rejection? Must understand a Father's heart!!!

(Sorry for being so harsh, but its true. Think about it )

 

[LivingWorship]

Hey guys, think about it this way. Jesus did sooooooooooo much, He SUFFERED sooooooooooo much so that we might enjoy an abundant life now, so shouldn't we make full use of whatever His given us? Or else what He did would be in vain. Its like, if your father bought a real nice and big house beautifully furnished for you, but you tell him, "Oh, no dad, i can't accept. I'm contented to stay in my rented one-room apartment."

Yes, you may be happy there, but will your father be happy? No! He'll feel sad that you don't want to accept his gift! And if he can't bless his son, who can he bless? Don't tell me he'd rather bless someone unrelated.

Its the same with God. For me, I'll go find out EVERYTHING that Jesus paid for me to have, so that His agony on the cross won't be wasted. Come'on, He suffered so much for us!!! The least we could do is to say thank you and humble ourselves and accept EVERYTHING His given us instead of saying, "thank you, but I'm happy the way I am." Its like a slap right into His face. Don't you think His endured enough rejection? Must understand a Father's heart!!!

(Sorry for being so harsh, but its true. Think about it )

That's an interesting view... I agree in principle. If God gives, of course we gratefully receive it. You're spot on. But that's assuming God gives that gift... there are times when we won't receive those things... and I understand I am conversing with moderates who aren't the kind of people who pray , God give me a bigger house or a fancy car but instead would pray God grant what you will, and I receive. That's the right attitude to have... but of course remember that the bible does say that we should also expect persecutions. So in accepting all the Father has to offer, we must also receive suffering. As per usual my 2c.

 

[Andry]

Hi Andry

I understand what you are trying to say but allow me to share some thoughts with you.

Thank you for your well-thought out response. There isn't much we disagree on. Blessings.

 

[victoryword]

Hey VW, great to be talking with you mate.

Fair call, like I said I am not well versed on what is going on around the world... I personally would like to prosper... I feel like I am in many areas but financially no. I have saved some cash but most of that will disappear in the not-too-distant future, as I am getting married and will need it for the wedding, house, so on... BUT I do feel God has remarkably provided, and at times, sure I have prospered... I don't know, perhaps it's even a definition thing. In many ways I do have more than enough I suppose.. hmm, LW needs to think I reckon! i agree on tithing, I have found when I have tithed properly I do have peace of mind and there doesn't seem to be much worry over what I need.

Me too. That's a good attitude to have whichever your doctrinal bias may be.

And you, my brother.

My brother, if you have more than your needs supplied (sso that you nare not only able to take care of yourself and your family) then you are prospering. If you have peace in your heart and you are winning people to the Lord then you are prospering.

I have a quote by Hagin somewhere where he points out that prosperity or "being rich" does not necessarily mean being a millionaire. This is how I understood the message of prosperity when I first heard it back in 1985. I was also taught that not everyone would be a millionaire but some have a calling on their life to be prosperous businessmen for the Kingdom's sake. I want to be one of God's millionaires but I am not there yet. But I assure you that I have plenty and that our family is a giving family, which I believe that you and your soon-to-be wife are.

This is what I want people to understand is the main emphasis amongst the prosperity teachers that I personally listen to and this is the message that I embrace. It is unfortunate that some on TV and some Christians make the message to be a selfish "gotta get mine fo' mahself" message. It gives us a bad rep. But I will fight against the stereotypes as well as the imbalance because I refuse to allow the whole teaching to be painted with one broad brush.

I only find it perplexing that so many are so willing to accept the negative stereotypes about faith and prosperity preachers and do not bother to look at the full picture. God bless my brother.

 

[victoryword]

Hey guys, think about it this way. Jesus did sooooooooooo much, He SUFFERED sooooooooooo much so that we might enjoy an abundant life now, so shouldn't we make full use of whatever His given us? Or else what He did would be in vain. Its like, if your father bought a real nice and big house beautifully furnished for you, but you tell him, "Oh, no dad, i can't accept. I'm contented to stay in my rented one-room apartment."

Yes, you may be happy there, but will your father be happy? No! He'll feel sad that you don't want to accept his gift! And if he can't bless his son, who can he bless? Don't tell me he'd rather bless someone unrelated.

Its the same with God. For me, I'll go find out EVERYTHING that Jesus paid for me to have, so that His agony on the cross won't be wasted. Come'on, He suffered so much for us!!! The least we could do is to say thank you and humble ourselves and accept EVERYTHING His given us instead of saying, "thank you, but I'm happy the way I am." Its like a slap right into His face. Don't you think His endured enough rejection? Must understand a Father's heart!!!

(Sorry for being so harsh, but its true. Think about it )

Get everything that God has for you Girl

BUt LW is right. It does come with persecutions (Mark 10), but those are going to come anyway whether we claim all that God has for us or not. But it is best to be prepared for the trials and sufferings that come as a result of the warfare.

 

[victoryword]

Thank you for your well-thought out response. There isn't much we disagree on. Blessings.

Of course not. I appreciate you Andry