John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:

[Christina M]

Too bad that message doesn’t get through to some people who have swallowed the “prosperity” doctrine.

\o/

That's not the prosperity message I have learned and been a part of. They teach "do not buy if you do not have cash". We are to be lenders, not borrowers.

 

[ShaunJ]

That's not the prosperity message I have learned and been a part of. They teach "do not buy if you do not have cash". We are to be lenders, not borrowers.

Actually that would be givers. Why lend?

 

[Christina M]

Actually that would be givers. Why lend?

Why lend? Because the bible tells us so!

Deut 15:6-8 For the Lord your God will bless you just as He promised you; you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow; you shall reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over you. If there is among you a poor man of your brethren, within any of the gates in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor shut your hand from your poor brother, but you shall open your hand wide to him and willingly lend him sufficient for his need, whatever he needs.



But, of course, we can lend without charging usury - to our brothers!



Deut 23:19 "You shall not charge interest to your brother--interest on money or food or anything that is lent out at interest.

We can lend to those not our brothers and charge interest!

 

[ShaunJ]

I think I'll start my own bank.

Non-Christians only please

I just want enough money that I can bless everyone and never have to lend. It would be so awesome to just be able to give to whom ever needed it.

 

[LivingWorship]

I think I'll start my own bank.

Hey you watch what you say about banks, I work for the best bank in Australia, he he

Non-Christians only please

Discrimination!! I'll sue!

I just want enough money that I can bless everyone and never have to lend. It would be so awesome to just be able to give to whom ever needed it.

I would love to be able to do that... oh well, I guess i can do that, just not as much as I would love to be able to give, and not to everyone... but God calls us to that nonetheless... hey all jokes aside, God notices that servant heart. Good on you Shaun

 

[victoryword]

That's not the prosperity message I have learned and been a part of. They teach "do not buy if you do not have cash". We are to be lenders, not borrowers.

Christina

No matter what you say to Jim, he is going to continue to believe the DISTORTION rather than what is truly being taught.

 

[Christina M]

Christina

No matter what you say to Jim, he is going to continue to believe the DISTORTION rather than what is truly being taught.

Yep, I know..........:o But, sometimes I think maybe he will finally see the light Probably a hopeless cause, but God is a God of hopeless causes! I was once one

 

[JimB]

Christina]
No matter what you say to Jim, he is going to continue to believe the DISTORTION rather than what is truly being taught.

Spoken with the usual arrogance of an E-WOF’er, VW. I might say the same thing about you but I will bite my tongue. I have always - and always will - offer a scriptural basis for what I believe and/or why I believe your unbalanced, extremist view on the subject of prosperity fails to rightly divide the Word.

Surely you can offer more than this.

\o/



BTW here are some ignored scriptures I never hear in prosperity sermons that you need to factor into your doctrine (for the sake of balance).

Matthew 6.19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matthew 6.24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. 25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
Matthew 19.24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Luke 12.15 And He said to them, “Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.”
Luke 12. 33 Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Colossians 3. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
1 Timothy 6. 5. . . men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content.
Hebrews 13.5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have.
James 5. 1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
1 John 2.15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

 

[misdeavious]

i take all those verses as saying not to make money an idol...and i know of many 'prosperity doctrine' churches that dont idolise money and material things...i think that God will always give if we have the right heart - but only so we can give back

 

[victoryword]

Spoken with the usual arrogance of an E-WOF’er, VW. I might say the same thing about you but I will bite my tongue. I have always - and always will - offer a scriptural basis for what I believe and/or why I believe your unbalanced, extremist view on the subject of prosperity fails to rightly divide the Word.

Surely you can offer more than this.

\o/



BTW here are some ignored scriptures I never hear in prosperity sermons that you need to factor into your doctrine (for the sake of balance).

Matthew 6.19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matthew 6.24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. 25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
Matthew 19.24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Luke 12.15 And He said to them, “Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.”
Luke 12. 33 Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Colossians 3. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
1 Timothy 6. 5. . . men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content.
Hebrews 13.5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have.
James 5. 1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
1 John 2.15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

In your offering of these Scriptures Jim you are assuming the DISTORTION. In other words, your assumption is that all propsperity proponents skip over those passages you cite as if we are "money grubbers". I know of many teachers of prosperity who use those very same Scriptures to warn their people against greed.

 

[probinson]

BTW here are some ignored scriptures I never hear in prosperity sermons that you need to factor into your doctrine (for the sake of balance).

Matthew 6.19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Matthew 6.24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. 25 “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?
Matthew 19.24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Luke 12.15 And He said to them, “Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.”
Luke 12. 33 Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Colossians 3. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
1 Timothy 6. 5. . . men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself. 6 Now godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. 8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content.
Hebrews 13.5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have.
James 5. 1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
1 John 2.15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

You obviously aren't listening to the same prosperity message that I hear, because I've heard all of those scriptures in reference to prosperity.

You post the same scriptures over and over and over again in multiple threads to try to make the same misguided point. In every scripture above, God is concerned with the heart of the person. I've said it before and I'll say it again: You can have money as long as money doesn't have you.

This "balance" that is being offered here is off point. The message in these scriptures is don't seek after wealth. I'm pretty sure that most people here aren't seeking wealth first and foremost. They're seeking God. These scriptures warn us what happens when we seek wealth before God. They do not say we can't be prosperous. That is an outright distortion. Seek God first, then all these things shall be added unto you. That's the message. Seek wealth first and you will be destroyed. Seek God first and you will be prosperous.

 

[Andry]

Seek God first and you will be prosperous.

No.

Seek the Kingdom of God first, and all these things shall be added. What are all these things? All the things that you need in order to accomplish seeking the Kingdom, will be provided. Our provision is purpose-driven.

 

[Christina M]

In your offering of these Scriptures Jim you are assuming the DISTORTION. In other words, your assumption is that all propsperity proponents skip over those passages you cite as if we are "money grubbers". I know of many teachers of prosperity who use those very same Scriptures to warn their people against greed.

Don't forget, VW...........you are an Extremist!

 

[probinson]

No.

Seek the Kingdom of God first, and all these things shall be added. What are all these things? All the things that you need in order to accomplish seeking the Kingdom, will be provided. Our provision is purpose-driven.

And that, my friend, is what I call prosperity.

 

[Andry]

And that, my friend, is what I call prosperity.

If your seeking the Kingdom means you've got to go through a trial by fire as you are being transformed to his image, in the midst of that trial....... is that still 'prosperity'?

Or do you not believe some of us may have to go through trials and tribulation as part of their seeking the Kingdom of God?

 

[JimB]

You obviously aren't listening to the same prosperity message that I hear, because I've heard all of those scriptures in reference to prosperity.

You post the same scriptures over and over and over again in multiple threads to try to make the same misguided point. In every scripture above, God is concerned with the heart of the person. I've said it before and I'll say it again: You can have money as long as money doesn't have you.

This "balance" that is being offered here is off point. The message in these scriptures is don't seek after wealth. I'm pretty sure that most people here aren't seeking wealth first and foremost. They're seeking God. These scriptures warn us what happens when we seek wealth before God. They do not say we can't be prosperous. That is an outright distortion. Seek God first, then all these things shall be added unto you. That's the message. Seek wealth first and you will be destroyed. Seek God first and you will be prosperous.

I may very well not understand your position. If not, it may be because it is not being offered to me in the right context. I do not have a problem with prosperity providing it is sought for the right motives and used for the right purposes. I consider myself prosperous but only because I have enough left over to give to those who aren’t. But I am not wealthy by the world’s standards, just content. Are we talking about the same thing?

\o/

 

[probinson]

If your seeking the Kingdom means you've got to go through a trial by fire as you are being transformed to his image, in the midst of that trial....... is that still 'prosperity'?

Yes.

Or do you not believe some of us may have to go through trials and tribulation as part of their seeking the Kingdom of God?

I know that we will ALL have to go through trials and tribulation. I've been there myself. It does not change the fact that I am prosperous. There are times when I look prosperous on the outside. Then there are times when I call those things that be not as though they were. The key is the bold word. I'm simply going through things. I'm not going to stay there. I'm going to come out of whatever trial or tribulation I may be in prosperous and victorious.

 

[Andry]

I know that we will ALL have to go through trials and tribulation. I've been there myself. It does not change the fact that I am prosperous. There are times when I look prosperous on the outside. Then there are times when I call those things that be not as though they were. The key is the bold word. I'm simply going through things. I'm not going to stay there. I'm going to come out of whatever trial or tribulation I may be in prosperous and victorious.

Great. Me too.

So Job always remained prosperous even in the midst of his trial?

 

[victoryword]

Don't forget, VW...........you are an Extremist!

Ah, so true. So true. And I am so ashamed of myself for it

 

[probinson]

Great. Me too.

So Job always remained prosperous even in the midst of his trial?

If Job had kept his focus on God in the midst of his trial, I believe he would have seen himself as prosperous.

I've mentioned it before on other threads, but I am currently going through some financial difficulties in my life. To the onlooker, I am anything but prosperous. But I still see myself as prosperous. This is a temporary setback, some trials and tribulations if you will, that I brought on myself. But I will come through the other side victorious. I don't see myself where I am. I see myself where I'm going.