John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:

[Shalia]

That makes me very sad. HOW can one guarentee someone's health and wealth with a pledge? Which station was it? I know Robert Tilton was pretty much humiliated and taken out of the picture.

It's 72 on my cable box, but that's probably not very helpful to anyone else. I stopped to listen cause they had a high school jazz choir singing "Cover the Earth" and we'd just done that musical in our church choir I was having fun singing along. And then I started reading all of the lines of text they were printing on the bottom and *sigh* I had to turn it off.

 

[catlover]

You want truth, here's truth! God will prosper his children. But the only Christians he will prosper are those who are mature in spirit

God can "prosper" His children without fancy cars and wealth. I am sorry, but material wealth is pretty cheap compared to contentment with God, a lovely sun set, or a day watching waves crash on the shore.

 

[catlover]

And then I started reading all of the lines of text they were printing on the bottom and *sigh* I had to turn it off.

Sometimes that's the best thing to do!! It's a shame that ministry is deceiving people.

 

[enoch son]

What I don't get Didy is if God gives to the giver then why do these preacher built big house for themselfs with fine cars? Under there owen doctrine they should be giving more away so they can get more! Ding-Dong the witch is dead! Which old witch the wicked old witch.

 

[enoch son]

You want truth, here's truth! God will prosper his children. But the only Christians he will prosper are those who are mature in spirit

God can "prosper" His children without fancy cars and wealth. I am sorry, but material wealth is pretty cheap compared to contentment with God, a lovely sun set, or a day watching waves crash on the shore.

Do you think that they have a wrong idea of what prosperity is? Doesn't the book say treasurers in heaven? I will buy 10 blessing now for 10 dollars! That sure does sound like a early church doctrine that Luther had a problem with.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

What I don't get Didy is if God gives to the giver then why do these preacher built big house for themselfs with fine cars? Under there owen doctrine they should be giving more away so they can get more! Ding-Dong the witch is dead! Which old witch the wicked old witch.

I agree.
A compassionate heart could never live in a giant mansion while poor and even starving people huddle on street corners just blocks from their hourse.
Where is the love my dear prosperity teachers?
As you know es, I teach prosperity... but "prosperity as in all needs being met" not "piles of money to burn".
I might be thinking to much of my self... but if I were a millionaire, there would be soup kitchens and super low rent appartments going up all over the place. Having been poor to the point of being homeless myself, I feel very sad when I see a hungry child here or abroad.

time:
Lord give us a compassionate heart of love that sees needs and acts accordingly. Lord forgive us for being hard hearted in regards to the poor. Let us turn a corner here and say we will not turn a blind eye to the plight of the widow and orphan. Let us reach out to the homeless and destitute... not in a judging or condesending way, but with true love and mercy. Oh Lord, live your life through us.
In Jesus name.

 

[catlover]

Do you think that they have a wrong idea of what prosperity is? Doesn't the book say treasurers in heaven? I will buy 10 blessing now for 10 dollars! That sure does sound like a early church doctrine that Luther had a problem with.

I think the idea of material wealth being a blessing is very limiting to what God has in store for us. He created this world. Economics, our money system, and disposable income is nothing compared to His creation.

 

[12volt_man]

Thanks, CleticFlame.

Reminds me of my time in the WoF movement when I was condermned for driving a beat up old Jeep when everybody else thought I should be driving an expensive new car like they were.

They believed that their cars were a sign of God's approval of them and their theology but what they never bothered to mention was that they went into a tremendous amount of debt to be able to have all of these nice things.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

They were wrong to do that.
But do not toss out the baby with the bath water.
Are you sure they did what you describe? Or is this just something you are assuming. Did they come to you and say these things? Did they actually say "you are not as good a Christian as I am because you drive a jeep"?
If they did, they were wrong.
But did they actually ever do that?
Did they actually ever say "God approves of me.... see how wealthy I am"?
Can you remember anyone actually saying that?
If they did, they were wrong.
BUT

If they did not.... then I might suggest you have some self inspection to do.

Thanks, CleticFlame.

Reminds me of my time in the WoF movement when I was condermned for driving a beat up old Jeep when everybody else thought I should be driving an expensive new car like they were.

They believed that their cars were a sign of God's approval of them and their theology but what they never bothered to mention was that they went into a tremendous amount of debt to be able to have all of these nice things.

 

[janny108]

Thank you for posting this. I've heard good things about John Piper, even though I've not heard any teaching from him.

Jan

 

[12volt_man]

They were wrong to do that.

Yes, they were. Unfortunately, this is more common than a lot of people realize.

But do not toss out the baby with the bath water.

I'm not. This is just one of many symptoms of the problems with WoF theology.

Are you sure they did what you describe? Or is this just something you are assuming.

I lived this for two years before God got me out of it.

Did they come to you and say these things? Did they actually say "you are not as good a Christian as I am because you drive a jeep"?

Word for word.

I was told over and over that I was "sowing poverty into my life", that I didn't have any faith, and that I was poor because I was disobedient in that area of my life. They told me I would never be rich until I stepped out on faith and spent money as though I already had it.

The funny thing is, I was what many people would consider rich.

At that time, because I had a minority ownership in two successful restaurants at the Jersey Shore and because of my investments, I made more in a year than the average five or six people in that church put together.

Because I was brought up knowing what it meant not to have any money, material things just didn't mean that much to me. I figured I had gotten along without them all my life and was happier than most rich people I know.

And, as a bachelor, with no wife or kids and no debts, I didn't really need these things anyway.

The ironic thing is, now, at almost forty years of age, I have a sucessful business, a nice house, a weekend property on eleven acres on the Chesapeake Bay, two cars, two boats and two jet skis, not one penny of debt, and am seriously considering retiring, now they condemn me for not accepting WoF doctrine.

So, basically, the WoF movement considers me damned if I do, and damned if I don't, which is fine with me. God delivered me out of that and there's no way I'm ever going to wear those chains again.

Did they actually ever say "God approves of me.... see how wealthy I am"?

Constantly.

They often held up their cars and clothes and furniture as a sign of God's hand on their life. What they never bothered to mention was that they went into debt so badly that some of them had to declare bankrupcy and some others defaulted on all of their debts.

Can you remember anyone actually saying that?

Oh yes. I remember standing in the parking lot of the church and trying to explain to someone why I wanted my old Jeep, rather than their expensive new car. In addition to the fact that I just liked the Jeep, with my lifestyle, the car would have been impractical.

I was told that people would judge God by the blessings of His people and that I was not only being a bad witness, but a bad Christian.

If they did not.... then I might suggest you have some self inspection to do.

If they did not, then I wouldn't have said that they did.

 

[rhemarob]

I leave the forums for a year and come back to the same old arguements !!!

HELLO EVERYONE !!!!!!!

You can't base your understanding of the prosperity teaching on a snippet from the Internet or a book and you certainly can't base it on the junk you see on television, just like the rest of God's word the prosperity teaching can be perverted and used to manipulate money from the unknowing public and it happens everyday on Christian television but lets not "throw the baby out with the bath water"

One of the basic tenets of the true prosperity teaching is that
1) A persons level of spirituality or maturity is not guaged by how much stuff they have, for example driving a new Benz and wearing a Rolex does not mean your more spiritual than the guy driving the beat up Jeep, if that were the case and Bill Gates got saved today then he would be considered the most spiritual of all.
I have seen it mentioned in this thread that a person was judged for the vehicle they drove by a group of folks, that is un biblical and unfortunate.

Unfortunately the prosperity gospel is one of the easiest things to twist and take advantage of people with, leaving a bad taste in the mouths of many by preachers who manipulate their flock and use the money for their own gain.

God does bless tithers and givers, the best rule of thumb is to simply tithe and give to your home church first and use discernment when giving outside of your home church, if you don't have discernment in this area or are unsure then just give more to your home church where your being fed, you can't go wrong there.

As some of you may remember I'm a big advocate on BALANCE in all things, so as we already discussed if I upgrade my Ford to a Lincoln and upgrade my house to a mansion it doesn't make me more spiritual right?
But on the opposite side of the coin if I give up my 3 bedroom 2 bath home for a trailer house and downgrade to an old used car because I want to be "humble" that doesn't make me any more spiritual either.

I teach the prosperity in a balanced fashion, I warn against being a
"Mailbox Christian" by that I mean that some believe (mostly from watching TV) that if they just give and sit on their butt a big old check will arrive in the mail someday, it doesn't work that way folks , God said he would bless what you put your hand to and if your not putting your hand to anything how can He bless it?

There is false prosperity teaching and there is balanced true prosperity teaching, lets not lump everything together.

 

[AudioArtist]

Jimmy West, you cannot say that spiritual Christians will definately be blessed by God financially. He may choose to do that (in which case, more will be expected of them in how they give) or He may choose to bless them in other ways. You can get rich without believing in God, or even without being a moral person-so richness is hardly a sign of being a spiritual Christian imho.

 

[rhemarob]

Thanks, CleticFlame.

Reminds me of my time in the WoF movement when I was condermned for driving a beat up old Jeep when everybody else thought I should be driving an expensive new car like they were.

They believed that their cars were a sign of God's approval of them and their theology but what they never bothered to mention was that they went into a tremendous amount of debt to be able to have all of these nice things.

Sounds like a bad group to be involved with to me.

I'm WOF all the way and proud of it and every single thing you've stated here goes against what I have always been taught and what I teach others.

 

[12volt_man]

Sounds like a bad group to be involved with to me.

It is. Thank God He got me out of it.

I'm WOF all the way and proud of it and every single thing you've stated here goes against what I have always been taught and what I teach others.

I'm surprised you've never heard this, since it's a pretty popular teaching in WoF circles.

Copeland, Hickey, Tilton, and any one of the most popular teachers teach this.

 

[Jimmy West]

Jimmy West, you cannot say that spiritual Christians will definately be blessed by God financially. He may choose to do that (in which case, more will be expected of them in how they give) or He may choose to bless them in other ways. You can get rich without believing in God, or even without being a moral person-so richness is hardly a sign of being a spiritual Christian imho.

There you go, miss-quoting me again! Why don't you try thinking about what I say before you speak. I DID NOT say that God will definately prosper all spiritual Christians!

 

[rhemarob]

Copeland, Hickey, Tilton, and any one of the most popular teachers teach this.

I've never read or followed Marilyn Hickey or Robert Tilton although I have followed Brother Copeland's ministry and to be honest I don't ever remember him saying anything along the lines of "if your not rich your not spiritual."

I'm surprised you've never heard this, since it's a pretty popular teaching in WoF circles.

I'm about as deeply entrenched in the WOF circle as you can get and yes I've never heard it taught although I have heard rumors of it being misrepresented that way by some that erroneously call themselves WOF.

Thank God He got me out of it.

Thank God He got me into it.

 

[12volt_man]

Well, I was in it as much as anybody and I heard this from several places.

I went to World Harvest Christian Center in Pennsauken, N.J. and attended Victory Christian Fellowship in New Castle, De, for a short time.

I was involoved in the ministry of Charles and Francis Hunter, volunteered at Benny Hinn and Marilyn Hickey events here, had every book, gave thousands of dollars.

I think you'd be hard pressed to show that my credentials as a WoF adherent were "erroneous".

Thank God He got me into it.

God? I don't recall that God does this.

In fact, my Bible says just the opposite.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to talk about this because any serious discussion of WoF doctrine is forbidden here.

 

[rhemarob]

Well, I was in it as much as anybody and I heard this from several places.

I went to World Harvest Christian Center in Pennsauken, N.J. and attended Victory Christian Center in New Castle, De, for a short time.

I was involoved in the ministry of Charles and Francis Hunter, volunteered at Benny Hinn and Marilyn Hickey events here, had every book, gave thousands of dollars.

I think you'd be hard pressed to show that my credentials as a WoF adherent were "erroneous".



God? I don't recall that God does this.

In fact, my Bible says just the opposite.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to talk about this because any serious discussion of WoF doctrine is forbidden here.

I'm not trying to debate you, I agree with you on some of your points.
I'm just saying that as a WOF Minister I do not teach and was not taught that having riches means you are spiritual, I was taught this is a perversion/misrepresentation of the prosperity teaching and should never be taught that way.

I graduated from a particular Bible school (hint: look at my name and avatar)
and was told repeatedly for two years that wealth doesn't equal spirituality.

I don't doubt your word, I believe you were taught that way, I'm agreeing that its wrong.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If they did not, then I wouldn't have said that they did.

Ok 12,
I am sorry if I questioned your statements.
It is just that 9 times out of 10 people who claim to have "come out of WoF" then proceed to make statements that prove they either were never in WoF to start with or were not listening when they were.
The people you were mixed up with were not (IMO) WoF as I understand it to be. And they were wrong in what they said.
Peace
Dids