Joel Osteen

[AllTalkNoAction]

Listen to the whole teaching. He makes the point over and over that it is by the power of the Holy Spirit that we are made Holy, . .

In 60 mins preaching doesn't identify how to get the power of the Holy Spirit, clearly identified in scripture by Jesus, Peter & Paul.

Without getting this right you cannot live a Holy Life cos you are still "in the flesh"

 

[VCViking]

In 60 mins preaching doesn't identify how to get the power of the Holy Spirit, clearly identified in scripture by Jesus, Peter & Paul.

Without getting this right you cannot live a Holy Life cos you are still "in the flesh"

This is an unbiblical and false teaching. No where in the Bible does it say that in order for one to receive the Holy Spirit, one must speak in tongues. And on pentecost they were speaking in a different language, not gibberish. I spent several years in a pentecostal church that taught this and I've seen tongues misused almost every time. I tested it against Scripture. It's a false teaching.

And off topic. Create another thread for it.

 

[VCViking]

Someone brought up Paul Washer, he's saying that "American Christianity" is rotten, but I'm saying no amount of repentance & being sorry and preaching hard sermons will enable people to be as God wants, unless they get what all Jesus' disciples got at Pentecost, (and what the people they preached to got - Acts 10:44-48, 19:1-6)

I think you will find neither of our featured preachers is telling people that.

Because it is not required for salvation and is not biblical.

Acts 10:44-48, 19:1-6 does not state in order to receive the Holy Spirit one must always speak in tongues. In some circumstances they did and in others they did not.


Here's Scripture with the Holy Spirit and no tongues:


Acts 1:5
for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.


Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.


Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.


Acts 5:32
And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him.


Acts 7:55
But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,


Acts 8:15-19
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.

16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,

19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”



Acts 9:17
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Nadiine]

That's your opinion??

You are waaaayyyy off the mark. While the wind is an analogy of the Holy Spirit, it is not regarding "speaking in tongues" which has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. Jesus is comparing the unpredictability of the Spirit and His role in salvation to the capriciousness of the wind, which changes direction several thousand times a day, blows easy and then blows hard, and then easy again. Man cannot understand the wind, and he cannot understand how the Spirit accomplishes salvation.

You're on the wrong board to espouse those beliefs, sir. Take them back to your board with you, please.

Worse, imagine how many new, naive & ignorant believers his message stumbles & harms!!!

Knowing they don't have this gift, they actually FEAR that they aren't saved by this false message. No doubt if that false doctrine troubled them about their salvation, they'de be scared & trying to FAKE having tongues or obsessing on the issue.

Just like Paul was teaching that the Judaisers were troubling the new converts with LAW -- burdening them with things that werent' applicable. Tragic.
Stumbling others is serious business. God help us.

 

[Cris413]

I listened to the first 30 minutes, again, he makes some good points; but again he's telling them to be holy but hasn't told them about the need to get the power to be holy, the Holy Spirit inside - with him leading you in prayer according to God's perfect will (speaking in tongues). I feel sorry for the people he is speaking to, and him, that's why I come here as a voice in the cyberness.

This is one hour of teaching in a 2 day conference.

I'm not sure why you consider speaking in tongues is the same as God's perfect will. No where in Scripture does it say such a thing.

Speaking in tongues is A gift of the Spirit...certainly not the only gift of the Spirit...but I imagine you've been told this many, many times.

I would consider you have been shown this Scripture many, many times as well.

1Co 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
1Co 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Salvation is not dependent on the gift of tongues...

Neither is evidence of the Holy Spirit dependent on the gift of tongues...

As Paul Washer pointed out...repeatedly...evidence of salvation and the Holy Spirit...is a transformed life....

A life transformed in the likeness of Christ Jesus...a life of sacrifice and obedience to God.

As opposed to some christian-like pop culture phenomena.

I believe others have mentioned already...your thoughts on tongues is veering disruptively off topic in this thread...

 

[Nadiine]

I didn't read some of the other recent posts yet, but I agree it's off topic to the thread & I'll definitely detour back to the topic.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

What do you guys know about him? I have heard his name, but I haven't really heard him speak or read his books. I overheard someone talking about him, but I don't know much about him, so I couldn't really join the discussion.

Doesn't preach the Gospel.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

This is one hour of teaching in a 2 day conference.

I'm not sure why you consider speaking in tongues is the same as God's perfect will. No where in Scripture does it say such a thing.

Speaking in tongues is A gift of the Spirit...certainly not the only gift of the Spirit...but I imagine you've been told this many, many times.

I would consider you have been shown this Scripture many, many times as well.

1Co 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
1Co 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Salvation is not dependent on the gift of tongues...

Neither is evidence of the Holy Spirit dependent on the gift of tongues...

As Paul Washer pointed out...repeatedly...evidence of salvation and the Holy Spirit...is a transformed life....

A life transformed in the likeness of Christ Jesus...a life of sacrifice and obedience to God.

As opposed to some christian-like pop culture phenomena.

I believe others have mentioned already...your thoughts on tongues is veering disruptively off topic in this thread...

ATNA is a proponent of salvific tongues . . . IOW tongues is the sign of the Holy Spirit and if you don't speak in tongues . . . you don't have the Holy Spirit.

Off topic though . . . but just so you don't frustrate yourself.

 

[Cris413]

As I watched this teaching of Paul Washer...

A thought came to mind. 1 of 3 things would happen to those hearing this message...

Confirmation of salvation and praise and glory and honor to Christ Jesus for what He has done for us!

or

Conviction and the realization of the need of our Savior and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

Or a hook in the eye as the enemy turned heads from this powerful truth.

Someone want to email this teaching to Joel? Hey...what a great idea!

 

[IisJustMe]

In 60 mins preaching doesn't identify how to get the power of the Holy Spirit, clearly identified in scripture by Jesus, Peter & Paul. Without getting this right you cannot live a Holy Life cos you are still "in the flesh"

You are still tryhing to indirectly preach your incorrect view of "tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit." You've been taught this by men, because God doesn't teach it. One last warning: Please stop trying to peddle this doctrine on this forum, or you will be reported.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

. .No where in the Bible does it say that in order for one to receive the Holy Spirit, one must speak in tongues.

Try listening before you answer.
The scriptures show that people speak in tongues when they receive the Spirit, it's his doing NOT a work we do in order to receive Him.

It was known precisely when people received the Spirit - by God's sign of tongues.
Logically, if what you say is true the apostles were wrong to make this judgement.

And on pentecost they were speaking in a different language, not gibberish. I spent several years in a pentecostal church that taught this and I've seen tongues misused almost every time. I tested it against Scripture. It's a false teaching.

Crazy logic!
Mis-use of tongues by some people does not change the gospel fact that people speak in tongues when they receive the Spirit.

And off topic. Create another thread for it.

We are talking about whether Joel & Paul are right on salvation, try listening before you answer.

 

[Nadiine]

Amen.

Well, it goes along with Joel's book method - SHOVE THE POWER OF GOD'S WORD TO THE BACK OF THE BOOK so people aren't forced to read those, while he thinks the most important words & messages ARE HIS OWN.

He has it backwards, it's God's word & truth & teaching that is the POWER unto salvation; not our little pep talks & motivational themes.

To me, that speaks volumes about how he views God's word - and it makes sense why he's mostly motivationally speaking and stays away from any substance teaching (meat of the word).
Frankly, I don't at all believe he's even qualified or capable of teaching any meat; he most likely doesn't know any.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

You are still tryhing to indirectly preach your incorrect view of "tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit." You've been taught this by men, because God doesn't teach it. One last warning: Please stop trying to peddle this doctrine on this forum, or you will be reported.

This is the NON-DENOMINATIONAL forum.
Who are you to nominate what people here must or mustn't believe?
You should go to the baptist forum (or whoever) if you want to stick to their beliefs.

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

. . .
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, . .

I'm focusing on salvation, the need to receive the Holy Spirit to be able to live a Holy life.
The bible is clear about the receiving of the Spirit.

You ignore the passages I quoted and mis-use "the gifts" passage which is not about whet different people get at salvation, it's about how God wants to use people when they meet, i.e. not all speaking in tongues please.

If you are consistent, you must also say that only some christians get faith, knowledge, wisdom & discernment etc, cos they are all listed in "the gifts"!!

 

[Zecryphon]

I have never said I was an Osteen supporter, Zecryphon.

I fyou would kindly review post #160, you will see how I gave the Holy Spirit the glory for whatever work He does in spite of the shortcomings of the messenger.

So the ends justifies the means then? Osteen's preaching, if it can even be called that, needs to be seen as the exception rather than the rule. Sadly, what he does is becoming the rule rather than the exception.

 

[Zecryphon]

Does Osteen teach against the manifestation of tongues or something?

I'm not sure I understand why "tongues" are being discussed as an issue.

I'm drawing the conclusion from AllTalkNoAction's statements that he believes unless you speak in tongues, you are not saved.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

So the ends justifies the means then? Osteen's preaching, if it can even be called that, needs to be seen as the exception rather than the rule. Sadly, what he does is becoming the rule rather than the exception.

I don't espouse Osteen in the least . . . but I will say this . . . it is more the rule that God use unworthy vessels . . . for we all fall into the category.

Joel has some SERIOUS theological and relational flaws . . . and he will be held accountable for his superficial teaching by God . . . but that doesn't mean that God doesn't or can't use him.

Remember Balaam . . . a pagan prophet for hire . . . and God used him to bless his people . . . and then later killed him . . . Samson . . . a drunk and a womanizer . . . yet God used him . . . David . . . a murderer and polygamist (sp?) . . . we could go on.

No . . . the norm is flawed vessels . . . used inspite of their sin . . . but this doesn't excuse their sin.

 

[Nadiine]

Sadly, what he does is becoming the rule rather than the exception.

Becuz they're more interested in pleasing the world (being loved by man) than teaching the fundamental truth of God. (that demands repentance of sin, carrying your cross daily - not just "waiting for my blessing at the end of the rainbow if I stick it out long enough")

This passage comes to mind:
2 Tim 3
1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good,
4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!
6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


and:
Isaiah 30:10
9For this is a rebellious people, false sons,
Sons who refuse to listen
To the instruction of the LORD;
10Who say to the seers, "You must not see visions";
And to the prophets, "You must not prophesy to us what is right,
Speak to us pleasant words,
Prophesy illusions.
11"Get out of the way, turn aside from the path,
Let us hear no more about the Holy One of Israel."

 

[IisJustMe]

I'm drawing the conclusion from AllTalkNoAction's statements that he believes unless you speak in tongues, you are not saved.

<--- that would be like the "Charades" clue

(Injecting a little levity into a much-too-heavy topic)

 

[Zecryphon]

I don't espouse Osteen in the least . . . but I will say this . . . it is more the rule that God use unworthy vessels . . . for we all fall into the category.

Joel has some SERIOUS theological and relational flaws . . . and he will be held accountable for his superficial teaching by God . . . but that doesn't mean that God doesn't or can't use him.

Remember Balaam . . . a pagan prophet for hire . . . and God used him to bless his people . . . and then later killed him . . . Samson . . . a drunk and a womanizer . . . yet God used him . . . David . . . a murderer and polygamist (sp?) . . . we could go on.

No . . . the norm is flawed vessels . . . used inspite of their sin . . . but this doesn't excuse their sin.

Yes but people always say "God can use him if he wants to" and people then walk away thinking that what Osteen does is okay. Maybe God isn't using him at all. Has anyone ever thought of that? No? Why not? Isn't that equally as plausible? But that would be limiting God and people just don't do that in their daily lives or in this forum. LOL If you believe that one, I've got some ocean-front property in AZ I'd love to sell you! LOL