Joel Osteen

[Waddell]

Someone brought up Paul Washer, he's saying that "American Christianity" is rotten, but I'm saying no amount of repentance & being sorry and preaching hard sermons will enable people to be as God wants, unless they get what all Jesus' disciples got at Pentecost, (and what the people they preached to got - Acts 10:44-48, 19:1-6)

I think you will find neither of our featured preachers is telling people that.

Then I am confused even more. I have no idea what Joel Osteen's position on the manifestation of tongues is, but I know what I know.

I believe that every born again Christian immediately knows that they are born again, though they most frequently have no idea what that means!

Still, they know.

So they quest. This forum is sometimes a part of that quest.

 

[VCViking]

Try listening before you answer.
...try listening before you answer.

How can I listen, it's a message board?

 

[VCViking]

Try listening before you answer.
The scriptures show that people speak in tongues when they receive the Spirit, it's his doing NOT a work we do in order to receive Him.

It was known precisely when people received the Spirit - by God's sign of tongues.
Logically, if what you say is true the apostles were wrong to make this judgement.

Crazy logic!
Mis-use of tongues by some people does not change the gospel fact that people speak in tongues when they receive the Spirit.

We are talking about whether Joel & Paul are right on salvation, try listening before you answer.

You're stating in order for one to be filled with the Holy Spirit, one must speak in tongues. I gave you in post #205 Scripture that shows the Holy Spirit with no speaking in tongues.

Show me Scripture that states in order for one to be filled with the Holy Spirt, one MUST and always will speak in tongues? Did it happen in Scripture? Yes. Did it happen every time? No.


Pentecost was speaking different tongues/languages of men. Study it again.

Acts 2

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.


8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.




And this is off topic because the topic of the main thread is Joel Osteen, not speaking in tongues. Create a new thread for that.

 

[Waddell]

You're stating in order for one to be filled with the Holy Spirit, one must speak in tongues. I gave you in post #205 Scripture that shows the Holy Spirit with no speaking in tongues.

Show me Scripture that states in order for one to be filled with the Holy Spirt, one MUST and always will speak in tongues? Did it happen in Scripture? Yes. Did it happen every time? No.


Pentecost was speaking different tongues/languages of men. Study it again.

Acts 2

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.


8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.




And this is off topic because the topic of the main thread is Joel Osteen, not speaking in tongues. Create a new thread for that.

Yes create a new thread for it. But, wasn't pentecost more about "hearing" than it was about "speaking" ?

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

Acts 10:44-48, 19:1-6 does not state in order to receive the Holy Spirit one must always speak in tongues. In some circumstances they did and in others they did not.

I'm not trying to say that one must speak in tongues in order to receive the Spirit . . . tongues is a miraculous unlearned language(s) that edifies the speaker - no man can do that - "no man can tame the tongue . . . it defiles the body" - fitting then that GOD should do it when our body becomes the temple of his spirit!! . . "from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" - the new tongue signifies the "new heart", similarly no new tongue shows no new heart.

"in others they did not" - I challenge you: please give one scripture that states that.

If you cannot it shows that you base your doctrine on no scripture and ignore what is stated.

Here's Scripture with the Holy Spirit and no tongues:
Acts 1:5
. . .
Acts 1:8
. . .
Acts 2:38

Yes, those scriptures mention the coming of the Holy Spirit, so what?

Are you saying that unless tongues are mentioned every time the Holy Spirit is mentioned you will not believe?

Acts 4:31
And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

They were the disciples who had already received the Spirit back in Acts 2, now they were stirring up the gift already within them.

This passage is not the receiving of the Spirit, you really need to rightly divide the word!!

Acts 8:15-19
15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,
19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

How was it known that these believers in Jesus had NOT received the Spirit?

Look, Acts is written as a letter, the same people are preaching the same gospel as at the beginning (Acts 2).

If you write a letter or introduce yourself, do you keep repeating the same detail?
Do you go up to your friends and say "Hi I'm . . . ."
Of course not! They will think you are mad!

Your argument seems to be that unless the same detail is repeated every time you will not believe!
That will get you nowhere because I can show other examples in Acts that don't mention that the people "believed" or "repented" or got baptised" ot "received the Holy Spirit" or that "the gospel was preached" etc. According to the way you are using scripture this means that all of these things are optional!!

 

[AllTalkNoAction]

Yes create a new thread for it. But, wasn't pentecost more about "hearing" than it was about "speaking" ?

No, there is nothing miraculous about bi-lingual jews hearing the language of the country they come from, when people within earshot are speaking in it.

What is miraculous is that galileans, who have never been to these places or learned these languages are now all speaking them!!

 

[Cris413]

Yes create a new thread for it. But, wasn't pentecost more about "hearing" than it was about "speaking" ?

I've started a new thread for gifts of the Holy Spirit...

Should anyone wish to continue the conversation regarding the gift of tongues there...

or any of the other gifts....

feel free to do so...

Only asking it be kept friendly and scriptural...

Blessings!

 

[Waddell]

I've started a new thread for gifts of the Holy Spirit...

Should anyone wish to continue the conversation regarding the gift of tongues there...

or any of the other gifts....

feel free to do so...

Only asking it be kept friendly and scriptural...

Blessings!

Wow! Thank you, I'm headed there!

 

[IisJustMe]

Then I am confused even more. I have no idea what Joel Osteen's position on the manifestation of tongues is, but I know what I know.

Don't know that he's ever expressed one ... but that's not surprising since he hasn't expressed an opinion on the Bible either.

 

[Vivster]

The original topic was "Joel Osteen"

What do you guys know about him?

 

[Nadiine]

Don't know that he's ever expressed one ... but that's not surprising since he hasn't expressed an opinion on the Bible either.

anyone would be hard pressed to get much more out of Osteen than "just wait for your blessing - it might be hard to go thru what yer goin' thru, but dig your heels in and endure. Then you'll get that promotion & big house that you keep asking God for".... blah blah blah.

Who knows WHAT he believes on any serious doctrine that doesn't involve blessing or enduring hardship.

 

[Cris413]

The original topic was "Joel Osteen"

What do you guys know about him?

Quite welcome...

Lakewood church is not far from where I live. I would not attend...I would starve to death.

 

[Zecryphon]

The original topic was "Joel Osteen"

What do you guys know about him?

He grew up in the church. His dad was a pastor and Joel learned from him, but didn't pay too much attention, obviously. His dad was a much more Biblical pastor than Joel is, from what I understand. Joel has a degree in Communications and it shows in the product he is selling, himself. His knowledge about the Bible is elementary at best and he considers talking about sin, repentance and hell to be downers. So people are left hearing how good they are, how much God loves them and believing they are saved after saying a prayer that never once includes a confession of sin to God or repentance of that sin or faith in Jesus Christ for salvation from sin. I'll have to hear his prayer again, but it's about as vanilla as it gets.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yes but people always say "God can use him if he wants to" and people then walk away thinking that what Osteen does is okay. Maybe God isn't using him at all. Has anyone ever thought of that? No? Why not? Isn't that equally as plausible? But that would be limiting God and people just don't do that in their daily lives or in this forum. LOL If you believe that one, I've got some ocean-front property in AZ I'd love to sell you! LOL

I agree . . . Osteen may not preach the Gospel . . . but I have no doubt in my mind that if someone falls on their knees and says "Jesus please save me" at one of his services, that Jesus isn't going to say "oh . . . I would love to but . . . you know this is a Osteen service right? I really can't do that right now . . ."

I am not excusing Osteen . . . I find him deplorable. But I know many of blissfully ignorant Christians that listen to him and think well of him . . . and I don't think God will refrain from using this.

For those of us to whom God has revealed the error . . . He will hold us accountable . . . but to the little ol' lady who watches Osteen whom God has not led into doctrinal nuance . . . who will never go to the depths of the kenosis . . . but will ever be blissfully in love with simple devtion to Christ . . . I think God will be fair.

BUT Joel WILL be judged HIMSELF.

Think of Namaan. Remember his request of Elisha? Two mule loads of earth . . . to set up altars for YHWH . . . and a request that YHWH pardon him when he bows in the temple of his kings god . . . because his king was old and Namaan must help him?

What were the two loads of dirt for? In eastern religious thought of the day gods were regional . . . IE Baal is the god of the plains . . . and YWHW was the God of the mountains (or so the pagans thought) . . . if we fight in the mountains YHWH is more powerful . . . we are on HIS SOIL. So he takes YHWH's soil to where he is . . .

So he wants YHWH to have power where he is . . . is that good theology? NO! YHWH is THE God . . . the TRUE GOD . . . whom ALL the earth belongs to. But did Elisha give ol' Namaam a theology lesson about orthodox belief about God . . . NO. Did Elisha say "hey there is only ONE place to offer sacrifices to YHWH . . . in Jerusalem . . . sorry you can't sacrifice or worship on the altars you are going to build" . . . NO. Go in peace was his response.

SO I feel orthodoxy is necessary . . . and right . . . and I will fight for it and call out those who aren't . . . but I will never say that God cannot use one . . . or even that God will not allow one their heresies while He works on them and eventually leads them to orthodoxy . . . afterall . . . we are all heretics somewhere!
LOL

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I've started a new thread for gifts of the Holy Spirit...

Should anyone wish to continue the conversation regarding the gift of tongues there...

or any of the other gifts....

feel free to do so...

Only asking it be kept friendly and scriptural...

Blessings!

Where . . . post a link . . . thanks.

 

[VCViking]

I've started a new thread for gifts of the Holy Spirit...

Should anyone wish to continue the conversation regarding the gift of tongues there...

or any of the other gifts....

feel free to do so...

Only asking it be kept friendly and scriptural...

Blessings!

Excellent. I should of followed my own advice...and Scripture.


Titus 3

10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I'm not trying to say that one must speak in tongues in order to receive the Spirit . . . tongues is a miraculous unlearned language(s) that edifies the speaker - no man can do that - "no man can tame the tongue . . . it defiles the body" - fitting then that GOD should do it when our body becomes the temple of his spirit!! . . "from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks" - the new tongue signifies the "new heart", similarly no new tongue shows no new heart.

"in others they did not" - I challenge you: please give one scripture that states that.

If you cannot it shows that you base your doctrine on no scripture and ignore what is stated.


Yes, those scriptures mention the coming of the Holy Spirit, so what?

Are you saying that unless tongues are mentioned every time the Holy Spirit is mentioned you will not believe?


They were the disciples who had already received the Spirit back in Acts 2, now they were stirring up the gift already within them.

This passage is not the receiving of the Spirit, you really need to rightly divide the word!!


How was it known that these believers in Jesus had NOT received the Spirit?

Look, Acts is written as a letter, the same people are preaching the same gospel as at the beginning (Acts 2).

If you write a letter or introduce yourself, do you keep repeating the same detail?
Do you go up to your friends and say "Hi I'm . . . ."
Of course not! They will think you are mad!

Your argument seems to be that unless the same detail is repeated every time you will not believe!
That will get you nowhere because I can show other examples in Acts that don't mention that the people "believed" or "repented" or got baptised" ot "received the Holy Spirit" or that "the gospel was preached" etc. According to the way you are using scripture this means that all of these things are optional!!

Ok . . . John 20:22 . . . no tongues there. OOPS

 

[VCViking]

Joel Osteen is definitely a preacher of a man centered gospel. He should spend more time reading God's Word than preaching.

 

[VCViking]

I agree . . . Osteen may not preach the Gospel . . . but I have no doubt in my mind that if someone falls on their knees and says "Jesus please save me" at one of his services, that Jesus isn't going to say "oh . . . I would love to but . . . you know this is a Osteen service right? I really can't do that right now . . ."

I am not excusing Osteen . . . I find him deplorable. But I know many of blissfully ignorant Christians that listen to him and think well of him . . . and I don't think God will refrain from using this.

For those of us to whom God has revealed the error . . . He will hold us accountable . . . but to the little ol' lady who watches Osteen whom God has not led into doctrinal nuance . . . who will never go to the depths of the kenosis . . . but will ever be blissfully in love with simple devtion to Christ . . . I think God will be fair.

BUT Joel WILL be judged HIMSELF.

SO I feel orthodoxy is necessary . . . and right . . . and I will fight for it and call out those who aren't . . . but I will never say that God cannot use one . . . or even that God will not allow one their heresies while He works on them and eventually leads them to orthodoxy . . . afterall . . . we are all heretics somewhere!
LOL

I agree.

God will use the false teachers that satan sets up in the pulpit. I was led to Christ by a false teacher's book on the end times. After reading that book, I was scared about going to hell and I needed to find out more about Jesus. Then I just started reading the New Testament.

I know of others with similar situations.

But oh how many are led astray by these men. God will hold them accountable

 

[Floatingaxe]

Ok . . . John 20:22 . . . no tongues there. OOPS

Of course not--that was when the disciples received their salvation.