Jewish Ethnocentrism

[Messianic Jewboy]

How do you know it isn't an issue with the Gentiles in your congregation? Few will speak out in person how they really feel about this kind of thing, that is why you will find a truer perspective online because of the anonymity.

I speak from real life experience. It's not an issue to begin with because our congregation doesn't teach like the stuff that has been posted here, Rudolph, UMJC etc.

 

[Lulav]

I speak from real life experience. It's not an issue to begin with because our congregation doesn't teach like the stuff that has been posted here, Rudolph, UMJC etc.

Are you intimating I don't?

Marc, you are on this forum right now, right? you have access to all that's online so do you think you are the only one in your congregation that has access to these documents?

I don't know this Rudolph you speak about and don't know why you are bringing UMJC into this. Bottom line is Gentiles in Messianic congregations.

Now I know for a fact that the MJAA does not treat Gentiles the same as Jewish members and I understand why.

But what we were speaking about is your comment that Gentiles don't feel second class in your congregation and I begged to differ that this would not be something they would openly speak about to the Jews of said congregation.

My experience though this isn't an issue amongst my non Jewish friends in our congregation. They realize it's a synagogue, it's not even an issue to begin with.

Maybe I misunderstood, perhaps define the issue you are speaking about so we can be on the same page?

 

[etZion]

Yes cause I believe the Apostles viewed non Jewish believers as more than sons of Noah but 'sons of Abraham. I'm in an discussion somewhere else about this. In Judaism(then and now) a son of Abraham is a convert, in the Apostolic sense if you will it's not a convert(becoming a son of Israel), so we have to be careful with this not to portray the wrong idea.

The problem is your definition of a convert is anachronistic, when we speak of Abraham and gentiles being heirs to Abraham, even if only in a "spiritual" sense, Judaism would never accept this, so we have to understand this from scripture and not 1st century Judaism. Paul describes this as something that existed in the scriptures, but was not revealed until the time of Yeshua. Thus to compare it to 1st century Judaism is anachronistic and faulty.

The root of the tree is the patriarchs. The root being the patriarchs doesn't belong to Israel only.

The point is this, the tree does not belong to Gentiles, however it naturally belongs to Jews, gentiles get grafted in. The point is, the Jews do not leave their tree, gentiles in the metaphor do leave their tree, to be joined to a tree that is not theirs. This is usually seen as a form of adoption, if the tree represents a family, then the gentiles are not by nature part of that family, duh, however now in the Messiah, they have been adopted or brought in. This is different then how Judaism views it, and Judaism would never accept such a possibility, thus we must look to the scriptures instead.

Paul also in Ephesians says that gentiles are now part of the commonwealth of Israel... These cannot be simply set to the side as having purely a spiritual meaning with no literal implications, yet most arguments presented from even stances that you hold, fail to acknowledge what this means in a literal sense. You at least stated you do see some literal aspect to it, but you never go into details as to what that means.

Concerning Judaism, my point is not to bash Judaism, no need and worthless, I have no point in bashing Christianity either, both have been used by God to carry out a major purpose. However just as we know Christianity's worldview is flawed, especially concerning Jews and Judaism, we also know Judaism's worldview is flawed concerning the Messiah and His followers. The error some are making today is in trying to adhere to Judaism's world view in MJ circles. This can only happen by erasing the additions the Apostolic Writings have brought, some say it is compatible, but if we ask the simple questions concerning Judaism with comparison to the Apostolic Writings, then we can see, that they are in fact not compatible, at least in whole. I brought this up, because I noticed that part of your definitions are by trying to hold on to Judaism's worldview and definitions, then trying to make them compatible with the Apostolic Writings. You said you would not want to be Paul, because of the radical things he stated, exactly, because they did not line up with Judaism in his day and neither today, creating conflict.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Marc, you are on this forum right now, right? you have access to all that's online so do you think you are the only one in your congregation that has access to these documents?

Sure there's access.

Now I know for a fact that the MJAA does not treat Gentiles the same as Jewish members and I understand why.

If either of your parents are Jewish then you can become a full member, otherwise you can become an honorary member. That's one difference. Another difference is leadership and minyan which it is a Messianic Jewish synagogue. Even CTMOC distinguished between Jewish and non Jewish; if you're not Jewish you're a Messianic Minister, if you're Jewish you're a Messianic Rabbi.

Otherwise I know for a fact that non Jews are not treated as second class, separation at the Passover Seder etc. But not all congregations are the same anyway even through they fly the banner.

But what we were speaking about is your comment that Gentiles don't feel second class in your congregation and I begged to differ that this would not be something they would openly speak about to the Jews of said congregation.

I haven't experienced that non Jews are second class or treated as second class in our congregation.

As an example... do non Jews or can non Jews have Brit Milah for their male infants? No. Does that make a non Jew second class?

 

[etZion]

Sure there's access.

If either of your parents are Jewish then you can become a full member, otherwise you can become an honorary member. That's one difference. Another difference is leadership and minyan which it is a Messianic Jewish synagogue. Even CTMOC distinguished between Jewish and non Jewish; if you're not Jewish you're a Messianic Minister, if you're Jewish you're a Messianic Rabbi.

Otherwise I know for a fact that non Jews are not treated as second class, separation at the Passover Seder etc. But not all congregations are the same anyway even through they fly the banner.

I haven't experienced that non Jews are second class or treated as second class in our congregation.

As an example... do non Jews or can non Jews have Brit Milah for their male infants? No. Does that make a non Jew second class?

The problem with this view, is that a gentile who goes through a non-Messianic Jewish conversion, will have a greater position and role within a Messianic community than a gentile who simply trust in Messiah. It elevates Jewish ethnicity over that of faith in Messiah. It would be like saying, you can only be part of the community if you believe in Yeshua, but if you want to participate in the whole package, you need to become a Jew. Do you see the issue there?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The problem with this view, is that a gentile who goes through a non-Messianic Jewish conversion, will have a greater position and role within a Messianic community than a gentile who simply trust in Messiah. It elevates Jewish ethnicity over that of faith in Messiah. It would be like saying, you can only be part of the community if you believe in Yeshua, but if you want to participate in the whole package, you need to become a Jew. Do you see the issue there?

I haven't heard a gentile have a non Messianic conversion while he was a believer. Maybe before he was a believer. I have heard of a Messianic Jewish conversion which is bogus. Most likely not comfortable with their indentity.

The CTMOC distinguishes leadership roles; if you're Jewish you're a Messianic Rabbi and of you're not Jewish you're a Messianic Minister. So a minister wants to be called a rabbi, what's he to do? A Rabbi is Jewish.

The fact is the fact, it's reality. Same can be applied in a non believing community.

 

[visionary]

Why mix Orthodox rulings with Messianic?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

[etZion]The problem is your definition of a convert is anachronistic, when we speak of Abraham and gentiles being heirs to Abraham, even if only in a "spiritual" sense, Judaism would never accept this, so we have to understand this from scripture and not 1st century Judaism. Paul describes this as something that existed in the scriptures, but was not revealed until the time of Yeshua. Thus to compare it to 1st century Judaism is anachronistic and faulty.[/quote]

Paul not I said non Jews in Christ are seed of Abraham.

Of course that wouldn't be accepted in 1st century Judaism and even today.

What existed in the scriptures that was hidden is that non Jews would become fellow heirs. How? Paul says those IN Christ are sons of Abraham. That's how they become fellow heirs. They don't become fellow heirs by becoming sons of Israel.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

[etZion] . They don't become fellow heirs by becoming sons of Israel.

Yes they do.

 

[etZion]

I haven't heard a gentile have a non Messianic conversion while he was a believer. Maybe before he was a believer. I have heard of a Messianic Jewish conversion which is bogus. Most likely not comfortable with their indentity.

Boaz Michael did this, but he is not the only one, and you are missing the point. If a gentile does this, then turns around and joins a Messianic Community, he will have full participation... this in turn makes Jewish identity greater in the Messianic community than the body of Messiah, and that is the error you have failed to address, yet MJAA and UMJC in various ways promote this error.

The CTMOC distinguishes leadership roles; if you're Jewish you're a Messianic Rabbi and of you're not Jewish you're a Messianic Minister. So a minister wants to be called a rabbi, what's he to do? A Rabbi is Jewish.

This has nothing to do with what I said. But, since we are talking about, I see no issues, lets stick with the topic at hand though.

The fact is the fact, it's reality. Same can be applied in a non believing community.

I don't know what this is in response to?

 

[etZion]

Paul not I said non Jews in Christ are seed of Abraham.

Of course that wouldn't be accepted in 1st century Judaism and even today.

What existed in the scriptures that was hidden is that non Jews would become fellow heirs. How? Paul says those IN Christ are sons of Abraham. That's how they become fellow heirs. They don't become fellow heirs by becoming sons of Israel.

Yes, they become fellow heirs in Messiah, they become part of the commonwealth of Israel in Messiah, they become adopted sons in Messiah.

Try to deal with what I write... you built a strawman only to rip it down, what have you accomplished? Who have you fooled?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Boaz Michael did this, but he is not the only one, and you are missing the point. If a gentile does this, then turns around and joins a Messianic Community, he will have full participation... this in turn makes Jewish identity greater in the Messianic community than the body of Messiah, and that is the error you have failed to address, yet MJAA and UMJC in various ways promote this error.



This has nothing to do with what I said. But, since we are talking about, I see no issues, lets stick with the topic at hand though.



I don't know what this is in response to?

I said in another post I didn't agree with MJ organizations and some leaders. Some organizations don't promote a conversion to Messianic Judaism.

 

[etZion]

I said in another post I didn't agree with MJ organizations and some leaders.

That's fine if you don't Marc, but I am addressing Messianic organizations, who promote these errors.

Some organizations don't promote a conversion to Messianic Judaism.

Correct, however they will accept a gentile who goes to a Orthodox Synagogue, goes through conversion, comes back to a MJ congregation, and they are accepted as a full member, elevating Jewish identity over that of the body of Messiah, do you see the error here?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

That's fine if you don't Marc, but I am addressing Messianic organizations, who promote these errors.



Correct, however they will accept a gentile who goes to a Orthodox Synagogue, goes through conversion, comes back to a MJ congregation, and they are accepted as a full member, elevating Jewish identity over that of the body of Messiah, do you see the error here?

Are you suggesting organizations promote denouncing Yeshua, get a conversion? The answer is no. They promote a conversion to Messianic Judaism, it's a bogus conversion.

I'd be curious if the CTMOC supports Brit Milah for non Jewish parents?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Yes, they become fellow heirs in Messiah, they become part of the commonwealth of Israel in Messiah, they become adopted sons in Messiah.

Try to deal with what I write... you built a strawman only to rip it down, what have you accomplished? Who have you fooled?

He hasn't fooled anyone who knows the scripture.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Yes, they become fellow heirs in Messiah, they become part of the commonwealth of Israel in Messiah, they become adopted sons in Messiah.

Try to deal with what I write... you built a strawman only to rip it down, what have you accomplished? Who have you fooled?

I'm dealing with what you wrote. You responded. You said yes but you didn't agree with me.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What existed in the scriptures that was hidden is that non Jews would become fellow heirs. How? Paul says those IN Christ are sons of Abraham. That's how they become fellow heirs. They don't become fellow heirs by becoming sons of Israel.

I think what often tends to happen (when knowing the scriptures and what the early Jewish believers have said) is that it's assumed you HAVE to become a part of Israel (as in a son of Israel) in order for the Lord to approve of you - but that generally occurs for people not content with what the Lord has done for those who are Gentiles since the goal/focus for them is "I have to become a part of the tribes of Israel in order to have acceptance!!!" (identity crisis)...the issue that generally comes from Gentiles not understanding God's role for them.

Of course, in the process, damage is done both to the scriptures, what the Apostles and Yeshua noted and God's Heart throughout the history of the Tanak when it is no longer enough for Gentiles to be accepted as Children of Abraham via Faith - and that's the issue of irony for people saying they wish to reflect true Hebrew culture. Being a part of the commonwealth of Israel in Messiah is not the same as being automatically a part of the tribes to have acceptance - nor does being a part of the commonwealth of Israel entail that one is bound to live just as the Hebrews do (which tends to be the real argument behind "Well Jewish ethnicity is exalted in synagogues!!!" - rather than having Gentiles seeking to minister to Jewish people in Jewish dominated areas or churches designed for outreach to the Jews, the focus becomes on Gentiles trying to usurp Jewish identity and claim "No I as a Gentile am a reflection of one of the tribes and should be seen as such!!!" or "I as a Gentile want to help you in being Jewish - and part of that goal means preaching to all Gentiles that they were meant to be like the Jews in order to be acceptable before the Lord!".....and then later assuming other Jews disagreeing with them aren't truly supporting what God meant for Israel to be about).


The mystery of the Gospel as Paul says that was hidden is that Gentiles are equal co-heirs of the promise with Israel in Yeshua - and You don't have to be a child of Israel to be a recipient of the promise (as stated in #104 )

 

[etZion]

Are you suggesting organizations promote denouncing Yeshua, get a conversion? The answer is no. They promote a conversion to Messianic Judaism, it's a bogus conversion.

No, go back and read it again, and see if you can understand, because you did not understand what I was saying.

I'd be curious if the CTMOC supports Brit Milah for non Jewish parents?

I have no idea, I am not associated with them...

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I think what often tends to happen (when knowing the scriptures and what the early Jewish believers have said) is that it's assumed you HAVE to become a part of Israel (as in a son of Israel) in order for the Lord to approve of you - but that generally occurs for people not content with what the Lord has done for those who are Gentiles since the goal/focus for them is "I have to become a part of the tribes of Israel in order to have acceptance!!!" (identity crisis)...the issue that generally comes from Gentiles not understanding God's role for them.

It is not an identity Crisis, it is simply believing what we are told when it is explained to us in how we have become Israel.

Gentiles didn't just make up a concept of identity crisis, it is what we are taught.


Jesus having came and fulfilled the prophecies of his missions in gathering Gentile to the Jew was long foretold by the prophets.


Jesus having fulfilled the calling of gentiles seeing his light and to marry the gentiles is long foretold by the prophets.

The concept of Gentiles becoming one with Israel is long foretold by the prophets.

The entire world having the same feast days in common that are only specific to Israel is long foretold by the prophets.

Why do gentiles have to keep the feast of Tabernacles?


How does a gentile become a Levite?

Not only are we told how we are grafted into the same tree, and thereby becoming a part of Israel, the Gentile can also become a Levite?

Can a Gentile become a Levite?

Can a Gentiles become Israel?


WE all know the scripture, and while you talk of identity crisis, I tell you of the Messiah's missions and the fulfillment of those missions.

You can say that he did not fulfill them, but I say he did.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It is not an identity Crisis, it is simply believing what we are told when it is explained to us in how we have become Israel..

Gentiles didn't just make up a concept of identity crisis, it is what we are taught.


Jesus having came and fulfilled the prophecies of his missions in gathering Gentile to the Jew was long foretold by the prophets.


Jesus having fulfilled the calling of gentiles seeing his light and to marry the gentiles is long foretold by the prophets.

The concept of Gentiles becoming one with Israel is long foretold by the prophets.

The entire world having the same feast days in common that are only specific to Israel is long foretold by the prophets.

Why do gentiles have to keep the feast of Tabernacles?


How does a gentile become a Levite?

Not only are we told how we are grafted into the same tree, and thereby becoming a part of Israel, the Gentile can also become a Levite?

Can a Gentile become a Levite?

Can a Gentiles become Israel?


WE all know the scripture, and while you talk of identity crisis, I tell you of the Messiah's missions and the fulfillment of those missions.

You can say that he did not fulfill them, but I say he did

Hannibal,


As said before here in #48, you've already made your point with folks who disagree - and thus, after they've already stated such and moved on, there's no need trying to come for (or speak to ) them as if you're going to convince otherwise. Seriously, the speeches aren't necessary if trying to convince others of your stance - for it was already addressed. Others - as before - already spoke in-depth on the issue which the common lurker can go back/see for reference rather than bringing up the entirety of postings others made on the matter before (as discussed in previous threads here, here,here, here, here ...#122 as a basic ..and others such as #146 /#154). It is nothing new - and others have consistently/repeatedly dealt with each and every prophecy brought up by yourself whenever you wanted to make it an issue - it is zero evidence showing otherwise on the matter when it comes to multiple people (macher, sevengreenbeans, Shimshon in his commentary on the issue, myself, etc.) who have all done so - all of whom have noted the many ways Israel was always multifaceted and that Gentiles were included a part of Israel in various ways ...for I already noted that plainly as did others - pat34lee, in example, received a lot of hassle over it due and I and others defended him on the issue...from the thread entitled Identity Chrisis: Slander..and other places being Who is a Jew? From our older son or here/elsewhere....)....

Claiming "I tell you of the Messiah's missions and the fulfillment of those missions" doesn't mean anything when others already addressed the way the Messiah reached out to Gentiles and NEVER expected them at any point to become one of the tribes of Israel - nor said that was a standard. This has been shared directly in #163 with you before so trying to repeat the issue doesn't mean much.

Seeing how Paul already explained directly how Gentiles become a part of God's people - from Galatians 3 to Galatians 4 and several other places as it concerns being a Child of Abraham - it is what it is, Identity Crisis, when one has to go past what the Apostle Paul (or Peter or Yeshua himself) noted in Gentiles never needing to become a part of the tribes of Israel in order to be accepted. That's the nature of the extemes in Two-House - British Israelism being similar when they do the same..

But as said before, it's your choice what you do - it's just not something most Jews or Messianic Jews will ever endorse with good reason. That said, unless you have anything really connected to scripture, harping on the matter is inconsequential and one (as said before) can save the speech since it it's really more of a matter of trying to get others to agree with you/validate rather than dealing with the facts that others don't care to adhere to what you wish to claim. That simple, Bruh....