Jesus's resurrection

[sovereigngrace]

Thank you. You've just admitted that spiritual rebirth is not resurrection from spiritual death - because in order to be resurrected spiritually you had to have been alive spiritually and then died spiritually.

You've been conflating new birth with resurrection from death.

Your confusion comes from your ignorance of original sin and total depravity. This explains a lot. Also, you don’t seem to know the difference between the soul and the spirit. We become a living soul when we are naturally conceived and become spiritually alive when our spirit is made alive upon salvation. This involves our spirit being raised from spiritual death into spiritual life (or newness of life) through spiritual resurrection.

 

[Zao is life]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Most, including Amils, don't dispute that these martyrs were physically alive initially, then they physically died at some point. What begs the question, then. When are they martyred? Are they martyred before they live again and are reigning with Christ a thousand years? Or are they martyred while they are living again and reigning with Christ a thousand years?

Speaking for myself, I see zero logic in the latter. To be resurrected means to live again. These that are martyred in verse 4, when would they have a need to live again? Before they are martyred, or after they have been martyred? Let's use Christ as an example. Clearly, He was martyred. Did He have a need to live again before He was martyred, or after He had been martyred? How ever one answers that should be the exact same way they should answer the same question in regards to the martyrs in verse 4.

100% correct. Besides this, one has to have been alive and then died to be resurrected from death. No one except Christ was born spiritually alive. It is also another reason why physical death could not hold Him (because He was never spiritually dead).

Since the fall of Adam, no one except Jesus has been born spiritually alive. For someone to have died spiritually the person would need to have been alive spiritually. But since the fall of Adam we are all born into this world dead spiritually. That is why Jesus said we need to be born again of the Spirit.

 

[Zao is life]

Your confusion comes from your ignorance of original sin and total depravity. This explains a lot. Also, you don’t seem to know the difference between the soul and the spirit. We become a living soul when we are naturally conceived and become spiritually alive when our spirit is made alive upon salvation. This involves our spirit being raised from spiritual death into spiritual life (or newness of life) through spiritual resurrection.

Your confusion comes from the fact that you fail to see that for someone to have died he needed to have been alive. You were not born into this world alive spiritually. This is why Jesus told us we need to be born again of the Spirit. But you say "No, we are resurrected from the dead spiritually".

Were you born alive spiritually before you died spiritually and were you resurrected from the dead spiritually?

No. You were not - as Jesus tells you, you were born again by the Spirit.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The key words are "together with Christ".

Christ is alive. He was raised,. You were born again.

Were you alive spiritually before you died spiritually? How then can you have been raised again (resurrected) from spiritual death?

This is basic 101 Christianity. This is basic salvation. It is concerning how many Premils do not have a clue about this. You also do not see to understand our union "in Christ." That is what Revelation 20 is talking about: us having our part" in Christ's first resurrection. You have no answer to this and no corroboration to support your speculations.

Our salvation is found "in Christ." We were buried "with Him," resurrected "in Him" and now reign "in Him."

· 77 times in the New Testament it describes us as being “in Christ.”
· 70 times in the New Testament it describes us as being “in Him.”

· 5 times in the New Testament it describes us as functioning “by Christ.”
· 35 times in the New Testament it describes us as functioning “by Him.”

· 5 times in the New Testament it describes us as operating “through Christ.”
· 7 times in the New Testament it describes us as operating “through Him.”

 

[Zao is life]

This is basic 101 Christianity. This is basic salvation. It is concerning how many Premils do not have a clue about this. You also do not see to understand our union "in Christ." That is what Revelation 20 is talking about: us having our part" in Christ's first resurrection. You have no answer to this and no corroboration to support your speculations.

Our salvation is found "in Christ." We were buried "with Him," resurrected "in Him" and now reign "in Him."

· 77 times in the New Testament it describes us as being “in Christ.”
· 70 times in the New Testament it describes us as being “in Him.”

· 5 times in the New Testament it describes us as functioning “by Christ.”
· 35 times in the New Testament it describes us as functioning “by Him.”

· 5 times in the New Testament it describes us as operating “through Christ.”
· 7 times in the New Testament it describes us as operating “through Him.”

We are resurrected with Him because He was spiritually alive, died physically, and was raised again physically.

Your confusion comes from the fact that you fail to see that for someone to have died he needed to have been alive. You were not born into this world alive spiritually. This is why Jesus told us we need to be born again of the Spirit. But you say "No, we are resurrected from the dead spiritually".

Were you born alive spiritually before you died spiritually and were you resurrected from the dead spiritually?

No. You were not - as Jesus tells you, you were born again by the Spirit.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

Was your spirit buried because you were born spiritually alive and then you died?

Or is it symbolically referring to the fact that Christ is the Son of Man and the last Adam and represents us?

 

[DavidPT]

I died with Christ in my baptism, having been buried with Him, and then raised with Him to newness of life. And so now in Jesus Christ I am alive to God, made alive by the Holy Spirit who lives in me, who is also the promise and guarantee that I will be raised up on the last day when Christ returns in glory.

So I have died spiritually and raised spiritually in Christ to life and reconciliation to God, with the promise that I shall be raised bodily from the dead on the last day.

-CryptoLutheran

I refer you to post #15, then.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your confusion comes from the fact that you fail to see that for someone to have died he needed to have been alive. You were not born into this world alive spiritually. This is why Jesus told us we need to be born again of the Spirit. But you say "No, we are resurrected from the dead spiritually".

Were you born alive spiritually before you died spiritually and were you resurrected from the dead spiritually?

No. You were not - as Jesus tells you, you were born again by the Spirit.

Hello! We are born naturally alive and spiritually dead. Our soul is alive and kicking, our spiritual man is dead. You totally avoid all the Scripture listed above that proves total depravity. This is 101 Christianity. I know you do not get this. But every Christian should know it.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Since the fall of Adam, no one except Jesus has been born spiritually alive. For someone to have died spiritually the person would need to have been alive spiritually. But since the fall of Adam we are all born into this world dead spiritually. That is why Jesus said we need to be born again of the Spirit.

So, explain how we were alive spiritually before we were naturally born? This is ridiculous!

 

[Zao is life]

This is basic 101 Christianity. This is basic salvation. It is concerning how many Premils do not have a clue about this. You also do not see to understand our union "in Christ." That is what Revelation 20 is talking about: us having our part" in Christ's first resurrection. You have no answer to this and no corroboration to support your speculations.

Our salvation is found "in Christ." We were buried "with Him," resurrected "in Him" and now reign "in Him."

· 77 times in the New Testament it describes us as being “in Christ.”
· 70 times in the New Testament it describes us as being “in Him.”

· 5 times in the New Testament it describes us as functioning “by Christ.”
· 35 times in the New Testament it describes us as functioning “by Him.”

· 5 times in the New Testament it describes us as operating “through Christ.”
· 7 times in the New Testament it describes us as operating “through Him.”

No it isn't 100% Christianity - it's what you have read into the gospel (eisegesis), as can be seen below:

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

Was your spirit buried because you were born spiritually alive and then you died?

Or is it symbolically referring to the fact that Christ is the Son of Man and the last Adam and represents us?

We are resurrected with Him because He was spiritually alive, died physically, and was raised again physically.

Your confusion comes from the fact that you fail to see that for someone to have died he needed to have been alive. You were not born into this world alive spiritually. This is why Jesus told us we need to be born again of the Spirit. But you say "No, we are resurrected from the dead spiritually".

Were you born alive spiritually before you died spiritually and were you resurrected from the dead spiritually?

No. You were not - as Jesus tells you, you were born again by the Spirit.

 

[Zao is life]

Hello! We are born naturally alive and spiritually dead. Our soul is alive and kicking, our spiritual man is dead. You totally avoid all the Scripture listed above that proves total depravity. This is 101 Christianity. I know you do not get this. But every Christian should know it.

You are not resurrected from the dead spiritually then. As Jesus stated, you are born again by the Spirit.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

Was your spirit buried because you were born spiritually alive and then you died?

Or is it referring to the fact that Christ is the Son of Man and the last Adam and represents us?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I refer you to post #15, then.

They are alive in Christ, and so even in death they live and reign with Him in heaven, even as Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father. See Revelation 6:9, John 14:3, and John 11:25-26.

So because of the life we have from God even in death we are alive, so the martyrs are alive in the presence of the Lord, until the day the Lord returns. As St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, that Christ must reign until every enemy is subject to Him, the last enemy to be defeated is death. That last enemy is defeated at Christ's Parousia, when the dead are raised, hence the Apostle says, "Death is swallowed up in victory. Where O Death is your victory? Where O Death is your sting?"

So that at the coming of the Lord on the Last Day, at the resurrection of the dead, there is the final defeat of death, and then God makes all things new, indeed, God will be all in all.

Christ reigns right now, at the right hand of the Father, His kingdom is from heaven through the Church, which has gone out into all the world preaching the Gospel of His everlasting kingdom. This is the Gospel of our salvation, the good news of what Christ has done, that by His life, death, and resurrection we are justified, made alive, forgiven all our trespasses, and have peace with God. For we were formerly at enmity with God, but even while we were God's enemies, God loved us, even as sinners God demonstrates His love toward us in that Christ died for us. This is the love of God, that we who hated God, have been made children and heirs of His grace. What was dead has been made alive, what was an enemy has been reconciled, what was under judgment has been forgiven, what was estranged has been brought near, what was perishing will live forever. World without end. Amen.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are not resurrected from the dead spiritually then. As Jesus stated, you are born again by the Spirit.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

Was your spirit buried because you were born spiritually alive and then you died?

Or is it referring to the fact that Christ is the Son of Man and the last Adam and represents us?

Baptism isn't figurative, Baptism is what it says it is, and does what it says it does: the one who is baptized has DIED, the one who has baptized has been BURIED with Christ, the one who has been baptized is ALIVE in Christ to God. For we have passed from death to life in Christ.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." - John 5:24

The old man has died, the new man now lives.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[DavidPT]

I'm glad you agree 100% that the word resurrection and the concept of resurrection from the dead refers only to someone who was alive, died and was raised again. So you agree that because no one except Christ was born alive spiritually following the fall of Adam. the spiritual new-birth experience is not a "resurrection from the dead".

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

New creation is not the same as resurrection from death after having lived and died.

Speaking for myself, for the most part I tend to agree with Amils in how they are interpreting passages such as Romans 6. What I am not in agreement with them about, is that this is meaning the first resurrection in Revelation20. It doesn't make sense to apply Romans 6 to someone after they have already physically died, such as these martyrs in Revelation 20:4.

If these in Revelation 20:4 are not martyred before they live again and reign with Christ a thousand years, but are martyred while they are living again and reigning with Christ a thousand years, this would indicate that the saints who are martyred for not worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign that this is running in parallel with the thousand years, which results in utter nonsense. The 42 month reign of the beast couldn't possibly be running in parallel with the thousand years. That period of time can only occur when satan is not in the pit, and not while he is in the pit.


Something else just crossed my mind----and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. I can see John the Baptist fitting someone like this. When do Amils typically conclude the thousand years begin? answer: at the time of the cross or soon after. When was John the Baptist beheaded? Before the time of the cross, or after the time of the cross? Answer: before the time of the cross. How then could John the Baptist already be living again and reigning with Christ a thousand years before the thousand years even begin, assuming Amil?

 

[lsume]

As some people on this board say they have already been resurrected once. It makes me wonder how many resurrections do they believe Jesus had. I've read he was resurrected. That he died and came back to life. But how many more resurrections do you believe he had and do you believe he may have more to come? How many resurrections do you believe you will have?

Perhaps what you have read was something like dying the first death? That must happen while your still here. The thief on the cross had to be born again before his death according to the Word.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Speaking for myself, for the most part I tend to agree with Amils in how they are interpreting passages such as Romans 6. What I am not in agreement with them about, is that this is meaning the first resurrection in Revelation20. It doesn't make sense to apply Romans 6 to someone after they have already physically died, such as these martyrs in Revelation 20:4.

Except that's not what is being done. What is being done is to understand that John's vision is a vision, and thus the point is that the martyrs are alive with Christ and reign with Him, that life they received isn't something they received after bodily death, but which they received while alive in the body--the spiritual life that is from God in Christ by the Holy Spirit--it is this life which preserves them even in bodily death as being alive with and in Christ--and so they reign with Him from heaven.

If these in Revelation 20:4 are not martyred before they live again and reign with Christ a thousand years, but are martyred while they are living again and reigning with Christ a thousand years, this would indicate that the saints who are martyred for not worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign that this is running in parallel with the thousand years, which results in utter nonsense. The 42 month reign of the beast couldn't possibly be running in parallel with the thousand years. That period of time can only occur when satan is not in the pit, and not while he is in the pit.

It's only a problem by forcing a particular reading of the Apocalypse in which the contents form a literal, linear narrative of a series of unfolding events; rather than as a series of visions which are to rest our hearts at ease by reminding us of Christ's victory over the powers of this world, which is the whole point of the Apocalypse, see the first chapter where John beholds Christ among the lampstands who declares He is the One who died but is alive forever, and that He holds the keys of death and hades. Christ is the Victor, and our victory is in Christ now and forever, and so the message throughout the Revelation is to persevere, endure, to push forward even as the world wars against us we have a victory and a hope that is found already in the victorious resurrected Jesus.

The Revelation is not a description of the end of the world, it is the revelation of Jesus Christ, the revelation of His victory, of His glory, of His triumph and thus our victory in Him. Even though the dragon rages, Christ has won the battle; even though Rome a blood-drunk harlot riding upon the beast of imperial purple wars against the Church, our victory is in Christ. The end of every destructive power is certain, the devil's doom is sure, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, the day is coming when God makes all things new and this age with all its evil is passing away and will pass away. But God is forever.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Zao is life]

Baptism isn't figurative, Baptism is what it says it is, and does what it says it does: the one who is baptized has DIED, the one who has baptized has been BURIED with Christ, the one who has been baptized is ALIVE in Christ to God. For we have passed from death to life in Christ.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." - John 5:24

The old man has died, the new man now lives.

-CryptoLutheran

Right. The old man was physically alive but spiritually dead, born that way. He never died spiritually because he wasn't alive spiritually so he wasn't raised spiritually. He was born again of the Spirit.

 

[Zao is life]

Speaking for myself, for the most part I tend to agree with Amils in how they are interpreting passages such as Romans 6. What I am not in agreement with them about, is that this is meaning the first resurrection in Revelation20. It doesn't make sense to apply Romans 6 to someone after they have already physically died, such as these martyrs in Revelation 20:4.

If these in Revelation 20:4 are not martyred before they live again and reign with Christ a thousand years, but are martyred while they are living again and reigning with Christ a thousand years, this would indicate that the saints who are martyred for not worshiping the beast during it's 42 month reign that this is running in parallel with the thousand years, which results in utter nonsense. The 42 month reign of the beast couldn't possibly be running in parallel with the thousand years. That period of time can only occur when satan is not in the pit, and not while he is in the pit.


Something else just crossed my mind----and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. I can see John the Baptist fitting someone like this. When do Amils typically conclude the thousand years begin? answer: at the time of the cross or soon after. When was John the Baptist beheaded? Before the time of the cross, or after the time of the cross? Answer: before the time of the cross. How then could John the Baptist already be living again and reigning with Christ a thousand years before the thousand years even begin, assuming Amil?

I suppose the A-mill has to have the word "beheaded" n Revelation 20 spiritualized too. Somehow they'll make it fit.

 

[DavidPT]

Except that's not what is being done. What is being done is to understand that John's vision is a vision, and thus the point is that the martyrs are alive with Christ and reign with Him, that life they received isn't something they received after bodily death, but which they received while alive in the body--the spiritual life that is from God in Christ by the Holy Spirit--it is this life which preserves them even in bodily death as being alive with and in Christ--and so they reign with Him from heaven.



It's only a problem by forcing a particular reading of the Apocalypse in which the contents form a literal, linear narrative of a series of unfolding events; rather than as a series of visions which are to rest our hearts at ease by reminding us of Christ's victory over the powers of this world, which is the whole point of the Apocalypse, see the first chapter where John beholds Christ among the lampstands who declares He is the One who died but is alive forever, and that He holds the keys of death and hades. Christ is the Victor, and our victory is in Christ now and forever, and so the message throughout the Revelation is to persevere, endure, to push forward even as the world wars against us we have a victory and a hope that is found already in the victorious resurrected Jesus.

The Revelation is not a description of the end of the world, it is the revelation of Jesus Christ, the revelation of His victory, of His glory, of His triumph and thus our victory in Him. Even though the dragon rages, Christ has won the battle; even though Rome a blood-drunk harlot riding upon the beast of imperial purple wars against the Church, our victory is in Christ. The end of every destructive power is certain, the devil's doom is sure, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, the day is coming when God makes all things new and this age with all its evil is passing away and will pass away. But God is forever.

-CryptoLutheran

But no matter how one looks at it, there is chronology involved. Initially satan is not bound. Then he is bound. Then he no longer is bound. No one would be claiming the chronology is something like the following instead, as an example---initially he is bound, then he is no longer bound. That is not true since this fails to take into account that he is first not initially bound.

Within this same chronology of events there are saints, according to Revelation 20:4, who are martyred during the 42 month reign of the beast, and that when they are initially martyred, it either has to be during the time when satan isn't even bound yet, or during a time when he is bound, or during a time when he is no longer bound. Those are the only options. They can't possibly be martyred during the thousand years since this would indicate the 42 month reign of the beast is running in parallel with the thousand years. And they can't possibly be martyred after the thousand years if they have already been martyred beforehand. What option does that leave if not that they are martyred before the thousand years begin?

And speaking of that, even Amils' interpretation of the thousand years, as wrong as it is, unwittingly proves saints are martyred prior to the beginning of the thousand years, John the Baptist being an example.

 

[DavidPT]

I suppose the A-mill has to have the word "beheaded" n Revelation 20 spiritualized too. Somehow they'll make it fit.

Actually I have run across some Amils that do exactly that. And there are some that treat it literally and spiritualize it at the same time. In John the Baptist's case, they would treat it as literal. While in other cases they might spititualize it if there is no actual proof anyone has literally been beheaded.

 

[parousia70]

All you need to do now is undeniably prove that what is meant here, this is meaning this same first resurrection in Revelation 20. And not only that, since it seems obvious that the passages you supplied are only applicable to this side of life before one physically dies, you would then need to show how that is also applicable to someone after they have already died but are still waiting to be bodily resurrected. After all, don't Amils claim departed souls are reigning with Christ in heaven a thousand years?

Do not these departed souls have part in the first resurrection? Which then brings us back to the passages you supplied. In what way are those passages applicable to someone after they have already physically died and are awaiting a bodily resurrection, such as the martyrs seen in Revelation 20:4?

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Do you think this is still applicable to someone after they have already physically died and are awaiting a bodily resurrection?

Well, You can't have a "First resurrection" that isn't actually "First".

The First Resurrection is not something Jesus does, it's something Jesus IS.

That bears repeating:

The First Resurrection is not something Jesus does, it's something Jesus IS.

"I am the resurrection and the Life"

Jesus Christ IS the First Resurrection, and on those that take part in it, the 2nd death has no power.

Jesus Christ was the first to rise out of the dead. Jesus was, literally, the "first resurrection." This fact, well attested by the writings of the New Testament, MUST form the basis for understanding Revelation 20:5-6:

"This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power" (Revelation 20:5-6)

The first resurrection was Jesus Christ:

Revelation 1:5

Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead Acts 26:23
Christ should suffer and...be the first that should rise from the dead

Colossians 1:18
He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead

1 Corinthians 15:20
Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became


Jesus Christ was, plainly, the first resurrection. This fact forms the basis of St. John's depiction of the tribulation martyr saints becoming full partakers of the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20--everything Christ received by his death and resurrection is granted to them. Revelation 20:4-6, therefore, depicts the reality of Pauline theology concerning the identity Christ's followers had "in Him." Paul had taught that the saints were to become partakers of Christ's own reign and victory over death. Paul, with his detailed theology of our baptism into the very death and resurrection of Jesus (Rom 6:3-14), taught that the saints had co-resurrection and co-enthronement in the realized resurrection and enthronement of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:4-6 is a narrative depiction of the saints' realization of the glorious promise Paul held out for them in his teachings--the saints are depicted as having attained the goal for which they all strove. As Paul taught, their resurrection and reign was "in Christ," and their sufferings and martyrdoms were honored by God with the reward of partaking in Christ's own resurrection, enthronement, and reign. They realized the promise of Paul's teaching that the saints were truly to take part in the first resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Truly, on these the second death has no power (Rev 20:6).