Jesus was not an Arminian

gmm4j · Feb 13, 2013

Shulamite said:
My statement stands. I believe God ordained and allowed my sin so that He could then show Himself to me as my Redeemer and Savior. If I had no sin and had not fallen, then I would not know or need God as my Redeemer.

God creates the circumstances, thereby creating the Need of Himself by His Elect. It's ALL about Him and what He has ordained to make Himself known to vessels of Mercy.

Jesus once asked His listeners, "Who will love God more? The one who owes Him more." The one who has their eyes opened to their sin and is Redeemed, loves God. That sin was, YES, foreknown and foreordained by God, even for His elect, so that He may show Himself as Forgiving, Merciful and our Rescuer. How would we KNOW Him as any of these things had He not ordained we sin first? How can we know God as our Savior if we had never sinned? Since ALL things were chosen, ordained and known by God BEFORE Creation, then I believe I have answered your question. The problem is that you won't accept my answer to your question.

Let me now ask you a question: Is the Father the HEAD OF CHRIST??? Did the Father allow Jesus to BECOME SIN? (for our sakes?) Did the Father, who is Christ's Head, ordain that Christ Himself BECOME sin? (who knew no sin?).

I agree He allowed you to sin. He did not create the Fall, but He permitted it.

Then, the answers to your questions to me are yes, yes, and yes. But even within the triune persons of God, you must ask did the Father make Christ obey, or did the 2nd person of the Trinity humble Himself and consider equality with God something not to be grasped and thereby became an obedient servant? Was Jesus' prayer not my will, but thy will be done just a show? Could he have called on His Father, or was He just blowing wind?

Matt 26:53-54
Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

dogs4thewin · Feb 13, 2013

Shulamite said:
Amen. Judas was chosen as a vessel by God's ordained plan from before the foundation of the world. God uses vessels of wrath and vessels of glory to accomplish His will (Romans 9) and neither vessel chooses what type it will be.

Jesus Himself said, "Have I not chosen you 12 and yet one of you is a devil". Jesus foreknew that Judas was a vessel chosen by God to accomplish exactly what he did accomplish. God, who is Jesus, was finished with His works and decisions about "man" long before He even created the world. Jesus didn't call Judas because He wanted to save him and couldn't, He called Judas because there was a foreordained purpose for Judas in God's plan and that plan was carried out by the predetermined will of God.

Romans 9 makes it clear that we cannot choose which type of vessel we are in God's hand.

Can we choose rather or not to have faith? Can we choose if we want to comply ( as it were) with God's plan? yes to both questions: otherwise we would be puppets and there would be no need to asks people what God's will was because we would be FORCED to do what His plan was? Can I have faith in something other than God? Yes money people, things ECT While I believe that God knows who will be saved and that what He wills WILL be done. I do NOT believe that people can not CHOOSE if they want to "get on board or not".

Shulamite · Feb 13, 2013

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:
Can we choose rather or not to have faith? Can we choose if we want to comply ( as it were) with God's plan? yes to both questions: otherwise we would be puppets and there would be no need to asks people what God's will was because we would be FORCED to do what His plan was? Can I have faith in something other than God? Yes money people, things ECT While I believe that God knows who will be saved and that what He wills WILL be done. I do NOT believe that people can not CHOOSE if they want to "get on board or not".

Hebrews says "Jesus is the AUTHOR (Initiator) of our Faith." In the context of this sentence, it states that I am NOT the author of my own faith. Faith must be given.

dogs4thewin · Feb 13, 2013

Shulamite said:
Hebrews says "Jesus is the AUTHOR (Initiator) of our Faith." In the context of this sentence, it states that I am NOT the author of my own faith. Faith must be given.

so does that mean that I can't have faith in other things/ Gods I think not.

Shulamite · Feb 13, 2013

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:
so does that mean that I can't have faith in other things/ Gods I think not.

Hebrews is directly dealing with your faith in the One True God. Saving faith in Jesus, Who is God, must be Authored BY God.

If a pagan has 'faith' in other gods, then that person is dead to the One true God and does not have saving faith. This saving faith in Jesus is a gift that must be given and authored by God Himself.

dogs4thewin · Feb 13, 2013

Shulamite said:
Hebrews is directly dealing with your faith in the One True God. Saving faith in Jesus, Who is God, must be Authored BY God.

If a pagan has 'faith' in other gods, then that person is dead to the One true God and does not have saving faith. This saving faith in Jesus is a gift that must be given and authored by God Himself.

If I have faith I can choose to have it; because think about money. Do you EVER have faith in money? Do you ever have faith in a person; of you do not have faith in people you can not be driven anywhere, You would not drive for that matter if you really think about it. Also a gift can be returned can it not? If I give you something it is free to you; however you may choose to not take it OR you may at a later time choose to get rid of it in some form or way ( no matter WHAT it cost me).

Shulamite · Feb 13, 2013

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:
If I have faith I can choose to have it; because think about money. Do you EVER have faith in money? Do you ever have faith in a person; of you do not have faith in people you can not be driven anywhere, You would not drive for that matter if you really think about it. Also a gift can be returned can it not? If I give you something it is free to you; however you may choose to not take it OR you may at a later time choose to get rid of it in some form or way ( no matter WHAT it cost me).

We are talking about saving faith. Saving faith in the PERSON OF JESUS, who is God. This can ONLY be given. Jesus made it clear that you do not possess saving faith apart from Him. He authors it.

I could never approach the Son of God and say that I chose Him and authored my own faith to trust Him. If I can do this, then I have reason to boast on the day of Judgement. No. I am saved by His choice, His grace and His authoring my faith. None of it is my ability or I can boast.

dogs4thewin · Feb 13, 2013

Shulamite said:
We are talking about saving faith. Saving faith in the PERSON OF JESUS, who is God. This can ONLY be given. Jesus made it clear that you do not possess saving faith apart from Him. He authors it.

I could never approach the Son of God and say that I chose Him and authored my own faith to trust Him. If I can do this, then I have reason to boast on the day of Judgement. No. I am saved by His choice, His grace and His authoring my faith. None of it is my ability or I can boast.

If He chooses to give you something (faith) then you can choose to say I do not want it. He does not make you accept. I choose to save you from drowning, (in this case in sin.) Can I make you accept that gift of life?

Shulamite · Feb 13, 2013

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:
If He chooses to give you something (faith) then you can choose to say I do not want it. He does not make you accept. I choose to save you from drowning, (in this case in sin.) Can I make you accept that gift of life?

Since Jesus is the Head of His body, the body WILL respond to the Head since they are ONE. Just as the Son does everything the Father does because the Father is the Head of Christ and they are ONE, so does Christ and His body.
If Christ chose me in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world, foreknew me and ordained and "appointed me to salvation", then YES, I will believe, because He has willed it and ordained it.

dogs4thewin · Feb 13, 2013

Shulamite said:
Since Jesus is the Head of His body, the body WILL respond to the Head since they are ONE. Just as the Son does everything the Father does because the Father is the Head of Christ and they are ONE, so does Christ and His body.
If Christ chose me in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world, foreknew me and ordained and "appointed me to salvation", then YES, I will believe, because He has willed it and ordained it.

That makes NO sense. You can not MAKE me believe something, nor can you make me want life.

Shulamite · Feb 13, 2013

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:
That makes NO sense. You can not MAKE me believe something, nor can you make me want life.

Well, we will RESPECTFULLY agree to disagree.

dogs4thewin · Feb 13, 2013

Shulamite said:
Well, we will RESPECTFULLY agree to disagree.

so wait can Jesus make us want Him, then?

Shulamite · Feb 13, 2013

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:
so wait can Jesus make us want Him, then?

If I answer your question, then I am asking that you please not private message me with an insult? Thank you.

I will speak to you respectfully and I expect the same on this forum.

Jesus said that no one can come to Him or desire Him unless He draws you. His Spirit must stir your heart to want Jesus. This is based on Scripture, not my own thinking.

blessings.

dogs4thewin · Feb 13, 2013

Shulamite said:
If I answer your question, then I am asking that you please not private message me with an insult? Thank you.

I will speak to you respectfully and I expect the same on this forum.

Jesus said that no one can come to Him or desire Him unless He draws you. His Spirit must stir your heart to want Jesus. This is based on Scripture, not my own thinking.

blessings.

I am sorry I offended you, and I did not mean to say nor imply that Jesus was not the author of our faith.

Shulamite · Feb 13, 2013

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:
I am sorry I offended you, and I did not mean to say nor imply that Jesus was not the author of our faith.

You didn't offend me by that. You Private messaged me and asked me if "I am stable"?

Yes, I am stable. Let's keep talking, but do so in love for one another in the Lord, okay?

bling · Feb 13, 2013

Skala said:
Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

Arminians say that it is up to each person to stay away from evil. They say God would never actually effectually do something that results in one outcome over another. He must sit back (in order to be fair and just, of course) and not intervene or effectivelly bring about a result.

However here Jesus prays for God to actually do something effectual.

It is clear Jesus believed that God is sovereign over this affair, thus is able to pray God to effectually do something.

If Arminianism were true, Jesus would know better, and never ask God to do something that He knows God would not or could not do.

So if Jesus asked it of God would God not have had to do it?

Did God fail to do it for Peter?

Did God fail to do it for Judas?

crimsonleaf · Feb 13, 2013

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:
That makes NO sense. You can not MAKE me believe something, nor can you make me want life.

A better question might be "can I make myself believe something?"

Can you truly make yourself believe in Zeus or Odin without a willingness to believe? Does Man have a natural willingness to believe in God? Look around you - do atheists want to believe in God but can't, or are they unwilling to believe?

You and an atheist may have heard exactly the same stories about Christ. You believe and he doesn't. Why?

Are you nicer or smarter?

dogs4thewin · Feb 13, 2013

crimsonleaf said:
A better question might be "can I make myself believe something?"

Can you truly make yourself believe in Zeus or Odin without a willingness to believe? Does Man have a natural willingness to believe in God? Look around you - do atheists want to believe in God but can't, or are they unwilling to believe?

You and an atheist may have heard exactly the same stories about Christ. You believe and he doesn't. Why?

Are you nicer or smarter?

no I do however had to want it what would happen if someone would RATHER Hell God grants that.

Arcoe · Feb 13, 2013

crimsonleaf said:
A better question might be "can I make myself believe something?"

Can you truly make yourself believe in Zeus or Odin without a willingness to believe? Does Man have a natural willingness to believe in God? Look around you - do atheists want to believe in God but can't, or are they unwilling to believe?

The atheists are very much unwilling, for in that being fools, they say in their heat, there is no God. They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity, and none of them have done good (Psalm 53:1).

crimsonleaf said:
You and an atheist may have heard exactly the same stories about Christ. You believe and he doesn't. Why?

It could be the same reason two believers hear the same story of abstaining from wickedness and casting away his transgressions, one believes and obeys and the other doesn't. Why?

crimsonleaf said:
Are you nicer or smarter?

Is one who abstains from wickedness and walks in the Spirit nicer or smarter than a fellow believer who doesn't? I would say he is not foolish, where the other is.

student ad x · Feb 13, 2013

nobdysfool said:
He chose/elected Judas for a reason, knowing full well what Judas would do. He did so to fulfill prophecy, which he Himself gave years before the Incarnation.......

"Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "AND THEY TOOK THE THIRTY PIECES OF SILVER, THE PRICE OF THE ONE WHOSE PRICE HAD BEEN SET by the sons of Israel; AND THEY GAVE THEM FOR THE POTTER'S FIELD, AS THE LORD DIRECTED ME." Matthew 27:9

"Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD." Zechariah 11:13

Jesus was not an Arminian

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