Jesus - was he a Jew?

[ewq1938]

http://jbq.jewishbible.org/assets/Uploads/374/374_sifra.pdf

http://jbq.jewishbible.org/assets/Uploads/374/374_sifra.pdf


I just want the scriptural references to read for myself not an entire document trying to justify the position.

According to Torah and talmudic Jewish law, that is NEVER supposed to happen. Your ethnicity changes upon formal conversion.

lol...I wonder if a DNA test would support that idea?

Jews that "convert" and become either Messianic or traditional Christians are often considered no longer Jews either religiously or ethnically by the traditional Jewish community.

How consistent...and convenient

 

[tulc]

The Bible describes how those who convert are to be considered the same as born Jews

33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

or

48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

or

16 The Jews had light, and gladness, and joy, and honour.

17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

tulc(hopes this helps)

 

[ewq1938]

The Bible describes how those who convert are to be considered the same as born Jews

or

or

tulc(hopes this helps)

Not seeing how this makes a gentile physically a Jew.

 

[tulc]

Not seeing how this makes a gentile physically a Jew.

I'm not responsible for you accepting what the Bible says, you asked for Scriptures about converts being accepted as being the same as those born Jews, I posted a couple and there are more, how you take them really is up to you. Of course, if you have some Scriptures about treating converts as some how second class Jews we'd be interested in seeing those.
tulc(always interested in things)

 

[Dave-W]

lol...I wonder if a DNA test would support that idea?

Dna has nothing to do with it. Remember that when a person was adopted, his entire family tree was changed to the adoptive family.

Stop thinking like a modern person.

 

[ewq1938]

Dna has nothing to do with it. Remember that when a person was adopted, his entire family tree was changed to the adoptive family.

This still doesn't change the fact that there are genetic Jews related back to Jacobs sons, and converts who have different genetic origins.

 

[Hieronymus]

Hi jabattler,

Even if we were to suppose that he was not a Jew by birth, which is fully possible. He likely was not conceived of either Mary's egg or Joseph's sperm.

"the seed of the woman" implies Mary's egg rather unmistakeably.

 

[tulc]

This still doesn't change the fact that there are genetic Jews related back to Jacobs sons, and converts who have different genetic origins.

uhmmm...can you show the Scriptures that discuss how genetic differences matter?
tulc(is just curious)

 

[ewq1938]

uhmmm...can you show the Scriptures that discuss how genetic differences matter?
tulc(is just curious)

It doesn't matter in the new covenant but it mattered in the old covenant, Deuteronomy 23:2, Leviticus 21:14.

 

[tulc]

Did you know one of the Judges of Israel was a bastard? And the son of an harlot? That would be Jephthah. Or that an illegitimate (and in Jewish law also a product of incest) is an ancestor included in the line of David? And of Jesus? That would be Pharez. Just something to think about.
tulc(suspects that verse in Deuteronomy and Leviticus aren't nearly as cut and dry as some might think)

 

[ewq1938]

Did you know one of the Judges of Israel was a bastard? And the son of an harlot? That would be Jephthah.

Harlot, yes, a bastard? No.

Or that an illegitimate (and in Jewish law also a product of incest) is an ancestor included in the line of David? And of Jesus? That would be Pharez. Just something to think about.

That isn't an issue as far as genetic lineage is concerned.

tulc(suspects that verse in Deuteronomy and Leviticus aren't nearly as cut and dry as some might think)

Well the two verses show that a gentile convert is not a valid marital choice for a Jew so this notion that converts are fully considered the same as a genetic Jew is not accurate, as far as scripture is concerned that is.

 

[tulc]

Harlot, yes, a bastard? No.

Really? Who was his dad? were they married?

That isn't an issue as far as genetic lineage is concerned.

It was one of the things covered in the word we translate as "bastard" in the Bible. He was the result of an incestuous (sex between a daughter-in-law and father-in-law was considered incest) relationship between Judah and his dead sons wife (who he thought was a harlot)

Well the two verses show that a gentile convert is not a valid marital choice for a Jew so this notion that converts are fully considered the same as a genetic Jew is not accurate, as far as scripture is concerned that is.

No, that may be what you want them to say, but taken with the rest of the Bible it's pretty clear converts were to be thought of as "and he shall be as one that is born in the land"
tulc(is going to need more coffee soon)

 

[ewq1938]

Really? Who was his dad? were they married?

Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.



bastard

4464

H4464
????
mamze^r
mam-zare'
From an unused root mian. to alienate; a mongrel, that is, born of a Jewish father and a heathen mother: - bastard.

It was one of the things covered in the word we translate as "bastard" in the Bible. He was the result of an incestuous (sex between a daughter-in-law and father-in-law was considered incest) relationship between Judah and his dead sons wife (who he thought was a harlot)

That doesn't affect someone being of Jewish lineage. Only children born from a Jewish and Gentile marriage would affect that. And I want to stress there is no such law against such a thing now but that there used to be.

No, that may be what you want them to say, but taken with the rest of the Bible it's pretty clear converts were to be thought of as "and he shall be as one that is born in the land"

Scripture doesn't contradict itself so that statement does not over turn other statements and laws.

 

[miamited]

"the seed of the woman" implies Mary's egg rather unmistakeably.

Hi hieronymus,

I agree.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[tulc]

Dictionaries - Smith's Bible Dictionary - Bastard.
Bastard. [N] [E]
Among those who were excluded from entering the congregation, even to the tenth generation, was the bastard. ( 23:2 ) The term is not, however, applied to any illegitimate offspring, born out of wedlock, but is restricted by the rabbins to the issue of any connection within the degrees prohibited by the law.
and one of the things specifically prohibited was:

15 " 'Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.

Which covers Judah and Tamar's twin sons. So one of those sons (which was why the word bastard was invented for the Jews) Perez was the direct ancestor (about 5 or 6 generations later) of King David and eventually Jesus.
tulc(hope that helps)

 

[ewq1938]

Dictionaries - Smith's Bible Dictionary - Bastard.
Bastard. [N] [E]
Among those who were excluded from entering the congregation, even to the tenth generation, was the bastard. ( 23:2 ) The term is not, however, applied to any illegitimate offspring, born out of wedlock, but is restricted by the rabbins to the issue of any connection within the degrees prohibited by the law.
and one of the things specifically prohibited was:


Which covers Judah and Tamar's twin sons. So one of those sons (which was why the word bastard was invented for the Jews) Perez was the direct ancestor (about 5 or 6 generations later) of King David and eventually Jesus.
tulc(hope that helps)

How could the descendant of a "bastard" be made King if he wasn't even able to enter the congregation of the Lord? Obviously David either was not within 10 generations or the product of incest is not the actual meaning of mamzer.

 

[Dave-W]

This still doesn't change the fact that there are genetic Jews related back to Jacobs sons, and converts who have different genetic origins.

So? The bible has nothing to say about genetics. So for these purposes it is irrelevant.

 

[Dave-W]

It doesn't matter in the new covenant but it mattered in the old covenant, Deuteronomy 23:2, Leviticus 21:14.

Um, the Leviticus passage applies only to priests; as to the Deuteronomy passage, why would you think a convert would be considered illegitimate?

 

[Dave-W]

Deuteronomy 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

bastard

4464

H4464
????
mamze^r
mam-zare'
From an unused root mian. to alienate; a mongrel, that is, born of a Jewish father and a heathen mother: - bastard.

Sorry but Strongs got that one wrong. He did not consult how it was understood in the Jewish community.

Momzer was simply the offspring of an unwed mother.

 

[ewq1938]

So? The bible has nothing to say about genetics.

That's quite incorrect.