Jesus isn't Catholic

Gregory95

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Do they not know

Obedience comes from this understanding if you true believer

Otherwise you just repeatedly sin until you no longer feel bad about it

But understanding shows you His truth and at this who would refuse and turn away
 
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FireDragon76

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Im not certain you are making yourself clear. What do you mean by "has its confessions".
Are you talking about a Priest, a Confession Booth, and a catholic church member, giving a confession?
As far as i know, no protestant denomination engages in this act, or needs to.

Lutherans and Anglicans do have private confession. In Lutheranism, it is traditional to make at least one confession before first communion, in fact. At my pastors LCMS congregation growing up in rural New Jersey, monthly confession was mandatory to receive the sacraments.
 
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dzheremi

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So, in other words, no one group of ancient denominations (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) can claim to be "the one true and original church everyone must follow" because there are actually several regional churches? And, perhaps, Jesus doesn't care which one we claim to follow as long as we follow Him?

No, that was not my point.

I'm not talking about the various churches that exist today. I'm talking about the historical roots and usage of the word "catholic". My point was that the OP is right in the sense that Jesus is not a member of the Catholic Church (i.e., "in union with Rome", since that's a later definition of 'Catholic', which did not exist until after Christ returned to heaven), but not right if we're talking about the original use/understanding of the term -- "whole, complete" (e.g., Catholic doctrine is that which is believed throughout the whole Church), because He fits the original use to a T: Christ is believed in by all who call themselves Christian -- i.e., throughout the whole Church. (And here I'm captializing "Church" to emphasize that this is true of Catholics, this is true of Orthodox, this is true of Protestants -- it is above any subsequent divisions into this or that camp; I don't mean to imply anything about them relative to Orthodox ecclesiology, which rejects the 'branch theory' of Christian organizations.)

The Catholic (i.e., in union with Rome), Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox (I don't know about the Nestorians in this regard) all consider themselves to be the sole true/faithful/orthodox (however you want to put it) continuation of the Apostolic Church started in the time of Christ and baptized into the world at Pentecost, though what that means to each one is likely to be different, e.g., Catholics will argue that they are the sole true continuation for reasons XYZ, while Eastern Orthodox will do so for reasons ABC, and Oriental Orthodox will do so for reasons AB, and...I don't know...let's say M. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So it's not a claim about continuation, but about the usage and understanding of terms. But, yes, you are right that the model that we see in the ancient world (and still today for the Orthodox, both OO and EO as far as I can tell) is one of regional/local churches, just as we can note that St. Paul's epistles were to the Church as gathered in particular places (Rome, Galatia, Ephesus, Thessaloniki). What are today perhaps considered 'ethnic' churches (relative to the West, anyway), like the Coptic/Egyptian Church, the various Syriac churches, etc. are better thought of as local or regional in this fashion, as the canons of Nicaea, for instance, lay out the territories that were traditionally recognized as being under the oversight of the bishop of Alexandria (Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis), and frames these in light of the same privileges given to the bishops of Rome and Antioch: "Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis prevail, that the Bishop of Alexandria have jurisdiction in all these, since the like is customary for the Bishop of Rome also. Likewise in Antioch and the other provinces, let the Churches retain their privileges." (Canon VI) So we can know from a very early date (325 AD) that not only were such local/regional churches (still) the norm, but the oversight of them had been set in such a way that it was referred to as 'ancient' even back then.

The local church has always been the catholic church (however you may want to capitalize that; I don't mean it in the "in communion with Rome" sense :)). Reading St. Ignatius (early 2nd century, so within a few decades of the deaths of most of the apostles, and only a few years of that of St. John, the last to die), it's kind of hard to escape that conclusion, given the importance that he places on the gathering of the church around the bishop. This means, in practice, that when you or I go to our respective churches, if we are members of churches which are following the traditional ecclesiology, there is everything there that is proper to catholic worship. This is what it is to be 'catholic', as a parish and as a Church: we do not lack anything by virtue of submitting to and gathering around our local bishop(s), because this is what we are supposed to do to begin with. This is why the first century church manual the Didache contains a lot about the qualifications and character of clergy and how to act towards them and towards one another in the Church: "Appoint, therefore, for yourselves, bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men meek, and not lovers of money, and truthful and proved; for they also render to you the service of prophets and teachers. Therefore do not despise them, for they are your honored ones, together with the prophets and teachers. And reprove one another, not in anger, but in peace, as you have it in the Gospel. But to anyone that acts amiss against another, let no one speak, nor let him hear anything from you until he repents. But your prayers and alms and all your deeds so do, as you have it in the Gospel of our Lord." (NB: I've never seen it happen, but was told by multiple people in my parish that one the reasons a person may not receive communion in our Church is if they have some grievance with or ill-will towards a brother or sister in the congregation, and it is known either within the congregation or within the person's conscience; this is our way of holding to these kinds of instructions.)
 
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Tone

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Jesus isn't a Catholic.
Neither is Paul.

Also, think of every denomination you can think of, then add in 2500 more you dont know about.

Jesus and Paul are none of those........also.
Jesus and Paul do not belong to a man made denomination.
But you do, or have.

Jeremiah 16:19
"O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

Isn't it awesome how the Scriptures have everything covered!
 
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Monk Brendan

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Interesting. I hadn't heard that before. So there were others tripping over themselves to align themselves with the governance of man?
What do you mean by this last sentence?

There are historical errors in the cultural consciousness. For example, the battle of Bunker Hill was actually fought on Breed's hill.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Im not certain you are making yourself clear. What do you mean by "has its confessions".
Are you talking about a Priest, a Confession Booth, and a catholic church member, giving a confession?
As far as i know, no protestant denomination engages in this act, or needs to.
I think you might mean something like "The Westminster Confession of Faith".
 
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Tone

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Another act of grace is that He moves within the organisations conceived by man.

I don't say this to justify them, rather to acknowledge His great mercy.

How does He move within the edifices of men?
 
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Tone

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If i might add to your comment about "original greek".
There is no such thing, as the "original greek".
This is "scholarshipeze - speak" and has nothing to do with truth or reality.
What we have, as greek texts, are about 30 completed ones, which are all copies of copies of copies, with the occasional very early parchment preserved, usually as a piece or a part.
We have the Dead Sea Scrolls that are accepted by some manuscript evidence experts, but not by all.
So, if you are going to try to sound like an authority on "original extant" texts, on a public forum, you first need to learn that there is no original greek text....
What we have are the 30, and some greek texts that are considered to be corrupted by nearly all the major manuscript evidence experts. These are the "Latin" texts, which created the Catholic Bible.

You have Nestle's greek text that use to be the same as the "received text" or Byzatine Textus Receptus text that created the 1st version and 2nd spelling updated 1611 KJV, but its been altered, and now its not the same as it was originally, and there is strong debate about it being as accurate regarding doctrines, as it was before the handlers got ahold of it.

So, if you are going to actually learn anything about Koine Greek, and "manuscript evidence", then do a deep study on "western texts", as this is the area related to where Paul did much of his service for God.

Also, for the sake of being valid and authentic, its best to write what you have learned, instead of cutting and pasting other's work.

I like this post, but can you cite your sources...a little...thanks!
 
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Tone

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Yes, there are no greek texts that are the original.
Thanks for clearing that up.
And also, , i pointed out that we have some early parchments, pieces, parts, etc... but we have nothing that is the actual epistle that was written by the hand of an actual Apostle.
What we have are the preserved copies, of copies.

I need these sources please. Thank you.
 
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Tone

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The thing is, if you ask ten different deeply prayerful, intelligent, Scripturally literate Christians to attempt to reconstruct what early, New Testament Christian praxis, worship, and faith would have looked like, sounded like, felt like, and included, based solely on the information provided within the New Testament, you will get ten different models, some of them irreconcilably different from each other.

Maybe that's why the father is to lead his own household.

* And we should all be okay with that.
 
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our allegiance to the governance of the Father, not the traditional governance of man. The governance of man including the Temple put Him on that cross. It was the formation of the Kingdom that raised Him

More on this please. Thank you.
 
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