Jesus has broken the Sabbath

[Leaf473]

Not scholarly or speculation.

According to Papias of Hierapolis (70-130 A.D.), the Gospel of Matthew was written in the Hebrew language and some Christians translated it into Greek, which was the lingua franca in those days, and perhaps other languages.​

Eusebius preserved the excerpt from Papias on the origins of the Gospel of Matthew in his writings:​

​

"Matthew put the logia in an ordered arrangement in the Hebrew language, but each translated it as best he could." ​

If you want to learn more, check out this webpage, it goes into all the different problems regarding the genealogies of Messiah.

Why Are Jesus' Genealogies In Matthew And Luke Different?​

It's possible. Not to get too far down this road on this particular thread, and hopefully we can bring this around to genealogies and then to breaking the Sabbath, but do we have that writing from Papias? My impression is that what we have is the quote from Eusebius. These early church fathers are not writing inspired scripture. Eusebius could easily be wrong, he could be working from a pseudo-Papias.

One way of dealing with Bible conundrums is to say that we have the wrong text. For me, a better approach is to say that the text that has been preserved throughout the centuries and been used by the church as a whole is the one God wants us to have.

Peace be with you

 

[Lulav]

Africanus' explanation was that both genealogies were Joseph's, but different due to levirate marriages.

But that doesn't make sense, does it? It's good on the surface but he wasn't the biological father. Also how could Miriam be the widow of Josephs brother? firstly she would not be a virgin. See the New thread I made.

Middle Ages Hebrew Manuscript shines Light on Jesus' TRUE Genealogy​

Wow, thanks for your explanation. I think this can be an interesting new thread. Can you open a thread and let us know? Meanwhile, I will read up the link you provided

I've done as you've asked

Middle Ages Hebrew Manuscript shines Light on Jesus' TRUE Genealogy​

It's possible. Not to get too far down this road on this particular thread, and hopefully we can bring this around to genealogies and then to breaking the Sabbath, but do we have that writing from Papias? My impression is that what we have is the quote from Eusebius. These early church fathers are not writing inspired scripture. Eusebius could easily be wrong, he could be working from a pseudo-Papias.

One way of dealing with Bible conundrums is to say that we have the wrong text. For me, a better approach is to say that the text that has been preserved throughout the centuries and been used by the church as a whole is the one God wants us to have.

Peace be with you

We also need to remember God does test his people and also has an enemy that wants nothing more than for us to no have or understand the true word.

See you at the new thread.

Middle Ages Hebrew Manuscript shines Light on Jesus' TRUE Genealogy​

 

[Yekcidmij]

But that doesn't make sense, does it? It's good on the surface but he wasn't the biological father. Also how could Miriam be the widow of Josephs brother? firstly she would not be a virgin. See the New thread I made.

I don't know that Africanus' explanation necessitates that Mary was the widow of Joseph's brother (if I recall correctly, that's not how Africanus' explanation works, but I'm going off memory right now). Also, I'm not saying I think it's true - I have no idea. I think it's clever, for sure, and sure it could be true. But it just looks to me like Africanus may be guessing like the rest of us.

I don't know what explains the difference in genealogies. To me they both read as if they're intended to be Joseph's line through, and to include, David. I'm not as cynical as others though and don't think either of them were invented whole cloth. My personal guess - and it's only a guess - would be that there were two genealogies in circulation. For example, one maybe held and maintained by the family of Jesus, and another was maintained by the priests in the temple archives. Matthew and Luke simply have each obtained a different list and write them down faithfully, but both lists show Jesus as [adopted as] Joseph's son and Joseph as a descendant of David. In this case, Africanus' explanation may not be that far off, but I couldn't prove it.

 

[Lulav]

I don't know that Africanus' explanation necessitates that Mary was the widow of Joseph's brother (if I recall correctly, that's not how Africanus' explanation works, but I'm going off memory right now). Also, I'm not saying I think it's true - I have no idea. I think it's clever, for sure, and sure it could be true. But it just looks to me like Africanus may be guessing like the rest of us.

I don't know what explains the difference in genealogies. To me they both read as if they're intended to be Joseph's line through, and to include, David. I'm not as cynical as others though and don't think either of them were invented whole cloth. My personal guess - and it's only a guess - would be that there were two genealogies in circulation. For example, one maybe held and maintained by the family of Jesus, and another was maintained by the priests in the temple archives. Matthew and Luke simply have each obtained a different list and write them down faithfully, but both lists show Jesus as [adopted as] Joseph's son and Joseph as a descendant of David. In this case, Africanus' explanation may not be that far off, but I couldn't prove it.

Some interesting hypothesis. But couldn't it be as I presented that there were two Josephs?

One the husband of Mary and the other Mary's father (which would be her genealogy)

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Some interesting hypothesis. But couldn't it be as I presented that there were two Josephs?

One the husband of Mary and the other Mary's father (which would be her genealogy)

Church Tradition says Yoakhim and Anna were Mary's parents. Joachim - Wikipedia

 

[Lulav]

Church Tradition says Yoakhim and Anna were Mary's parents. Joachim - Wikipedia

Yes, I know of the tradition but where did that come from?

 

[dqhall]

The Jews also accused Jesus of claiming to be God. And they are right. The Jews of that time who knew the Torah very well realized through Jesus' statements that Jesus claimed to be God. As you can see, the Jews do not always have to be wrong.

I have already provided clear evidence that Jesus clearly broke the Sabbath. But if that is not enough, I would like to point to Augustine, perhaps the greatest church father. He agrees that Jesus broke the Sabbath and explains it by saying that the Sabbath is only a foreshadow. CHURCH FATHERS: Tractates on the Gospel of John (Augustine)

Some twisted the Sabbath commandment in a fanatical way by needing to execute people who did some light chores on the seventh day. In this way they violated the commandment against murder. The Torah is not perfect.

Arab armies attacked Israel on Yom Kippur in 1973. If President Nixon had not airlifted military supplies to Israel, Israel might have been forced to surrender. Yom Kippur is a special day of rest. Since then Israel had to modify the Sabbath (Shabaht) commandments to allow work on the seventh day in the event of war. They keep some gas stations open on Shabaht in case of emergency. They also have a law to keep their hospitals open on Shabaht, as a woman might need to deliver a baby. Ben Gurion Airport (TLV) is open during the seventh day. A few stores were open. A few families drove to deserted areas and spent the day on blankets.

God breaks the Sabbath on a regular basis, else the world would go out of control.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, I know of the tradition but where did that come from?

The apocryphal Gospel of James.

 

[Lulav]

Some twisted the Sabbath commandment in a fanatical way by needing to execute people who did some light chores on the seventh day. In this way they violated the commandment against murder.

It was not considered murder, it was a penalty for certain crimes.
It was very rare to be executed for breaking any commandment that the law required death for. It is said in a Mishnah passage that a religious court that executed someone once in 70 years was considered destructive. That gap between principle and practice is often cited as evidence that Judaism is deeply uncomfortable with capital punishment, so much so that the rabbis of the Talmud erected significant legal bulwarks to make it exceedingly rare.

The Torah is not perfect.

Psalm of David 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Out of concern I want to or must say to Seventh Day Adventists and those who count on keeping sabbath to save that that seems to risk salvation so should not do for we know Paul also says it is not true one day considers one day more important one and others everyday alike let each be convinced but Paul seems to mean that one day is just for benefit not to justify and since others can be justified if they do not it is safest not to teach or seek to keep to justify for as paul said if you are circumcised christ will profit you nothing that it also applies to any work that christ did not command such as sabbath and we know as paul says we dont have to worry about sabbaths.

Sabbath may still be a Special day Paul not saying it isn’t but not to argue but not to justify that when many of Israel converts at end of age and God does signs among them to prove they will keep sabbath as blessing as time to worship though not needed and all nations will come to Jerusalem to join them but could be in new earth that sabbaths will be kept there for how shall they look at those in hell except they not be on this earth and God said in Isaiah He will make either gentiles or Israelites priests then.

I believe meaning it will be like early church for people to have power of apostles that some will be as apostles to hear from God to give a word to others and as revelations says we are royal priesthood though there is different functions in church some will be chosen in position who are good to intercede for people though all can but they are good for it not needing old priesthood as bible says in new covenant none shall teach neighbor but this priesthood could be in new earth for it says they shall see my glory but they never heard of His fame so are those born who never hear about Christ that some are born then and need also to be schooled in the law before they can hear about Christ so temple sacrifices will be in new earth to understand blood then.

 

[HIM]

Out of concern I want to or must say to Seventh Day Adventists and those who count on keeping sabbath to save

No one I know who observes the Sabbath through Christ does so to be saved.

 

[HIM]

Paul also says it is not true one day considers one day more important one and others everyday alike let each be convinced

No he doesn't. Romans 14 is about man's opinion not God's word. Verse 1 sets the context. Verse 2 solidifies it. No where in God's word is said to only eat vegitables.

Rom 14:1 Now receive the one who is weak in the faith, and do not have disputes over differing opinions.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

 

[All Becomes New]

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

In other words, God is not a moral being. He supersedes morality; He is not subject to it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath because He created it, for mankind Mark 2:27 to spend time with God on the day God set aside, sanctified and blessed for holy use because man cannot sanctify themselves, only God can Eze 20:12, yet man tries to anyway.

In other words, God is not a moral being. He supersedes morality; He is not subject to it.

You seem to be putting words into His mouth that He never said.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,

 

[All Becomes New]

You seem to be putting words into His mouth that He never said.

It's Classical theology. You would not understand.

God Is Not A Moral Being and the Moral Argument Is Often Wrongheaded - J. Brian Huffling, Ph.D.

God is not a moral being and often the way the moral argument is used is just wrong. What I mean by the former is that God does not abide by moral commands, nor does he fulfill obligations or virtues in the way that humans do. I am also denying that God is his own

brianhuffling.com

 

[HIM]

In other words, God is not a moral being. He supersedes morality; He is not subject to it.

In other words. God the sinner wants us to be something He Himself is not? That is as much a lie as this post we are responding to.


Our righteousness is found only in and through Him. He is our righteous, He is Love. And as He is so are we in this world. Us in Him He in us that the world might believe. For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

 

[All Becomes New]

In other words. God the sinner wants us to be something He Himself is not? That is as much a lie as this post we are responding to.

Good thing that is not what I said then.

Our righteousness is found only in and through Him. He is our righteous, He is Love. And as He is so are we in this world. Us in Him He in us that the world might believe. For it is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure.

I don't disagree.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It's Classical theology. You would not understand.

God Is Not A Moral Being and the Moral Argument Is Often Wrongheaded - J. Brian Huffling, Ph.D.

God is not a moral being and often the way the moral argument is used is just wrong. What I mean by the former is that God does not abide by moral commands, nor does he fulfill obligations or virtues in the way that humans do. I am also denying that God is his own

brianhuffling.com

I prefer to live by every Word Mat 4:4 than live by opinions of man.

 

[All Becomes New]

opinions of man.

Like your own?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Like your own?

Exo 20:11, Exo 20:8-11 Isaiah 58:13 Luke 4:16, Rev 14:12 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Mat 15:3-9 Mat 19:17-19 Exodus 20:6 Rev 22:14 are not my words