Jesus has broken the Sabbath

[Cornelius8L]

He did 'heal him on the spot' , he just told him to go and wash in the pool of siloam.

So you are overwriting the clarification of the blind man himself, ‘The man answered, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and now I can see (John 9:15).”’ The blind man said he gained his sight after washing, not before washing.

 

[Cornelius8L]

Torah - A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

The Living Word -
But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' ~ Matt

Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. ~ John

Paul -
"Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
2 Cor

So you are saying what Paul said doesn’t count even if he has the Holy Spirit and Christ revealed knowledge directly to him? His testimony of two or three doesn’t count (Paul+Holy Spirit/Jesus+the Apostles)?

John 8:17-18 Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am One who testifies about Myself, and the Father, who sent Me, also testifies about Me.”​

​

Galatians 1:12​

I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.​

 

[Cornelius8L]

The only thing it says is in the ark in heaven is the testimony of the covenant, thus the ten words written by God Himself. , No Manna, no Aarons budded staff.

Hebrews 9:4 reveals the content of the ark of the covenant, and Hebrews 9:15 states Christ holds the new covenant. Liken to the Ark that holds the old covenant (v15 mentioned the ‘first covenant’ of the old).

Coming out of the abyss you could certainly call it a beast.

Actual beast or figurative like the Queen Babylon?

The two olive trees are the two witnesses, they are filled with the HOLY SPIRIT.

The Temple existed before God was made flesh in Yeshua. That is what the Tabernacle was patterned after in Moses time.

Agree.

I have no idea what you mean after that, 'pointing the mouth of Christ? ??

“He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked (Isaiah 11:4).” – Referring to Jesus

Aaron is High Priest = Jesus is High Priest

 

[Cornelius8L]

Supplication does that.

As with Abraham it was stated it was a test. He didn't change his mind, but wanted to see how faithful and obedient he would be.

Agree. But on the surface level, it seems God changed. Abraham wouldn’t know about the test when he received the instruction. From Abraham's standpoint, God changed His mind. Similarly, we only see what we see until it is further revealed. “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (1 Corinthians 13:9-10).”

 

[Lulav]

So you are overwriting the clarification of the blind man himself, ‘The man answered, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and now I can see (John 9:15).”’ The blind man said he gained his sight after washing, not before washing.

So which do you think gave the blind man sight, Yeshua putting the mud on his eyes or the man washing away the mud?

 

[Lulav]

Hebrews 9:4 reveals the content of the ark of the covenant, and Hebrews 9:15 states Christ holds the new covenant. Liken to the Ark that holds the old covenant (v15 mentioned the ‘first covenant’ of the old).

Hebrews 9 is speaking of the Earthly Tabernacle.

The Earthly Sanctuary


9 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

That one was patterned after the one in heaven, the one John saw.

Actual beast or figurative like the Queen Babylon?

Coming out of the abyys I think is real, so whatever does come out I don't think it's figurative, ppl may wish it to be but I highly doubt it.

“He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked (Isaiah 11:4).” – Referring to Jesus

Aaron is High Priest = Jesus is High Priest

I'm still not sure what you are referencing that for?

Jesus priesthood is said to not be like the Levitical priesthood but that of the Righteous King.

 

[Lulav]

So you are saying what Paul said doesn’t count even if he has the Holy Spirit and Christ revealed knowledge directly to him? His testimony of two or three doesn’t count (Paul+Holy Spirit/Jesus+the Apostles)?

John 8:17-18 Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am One who testifies about Myself, and the Father, who sent Me, also testifies about Me.”​

​

Galatians 1:12​

I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.​

1. Jesus and Paul are not equals
2. Jesus and his Father can be witnesses of each other that doesn't hold for any other
3. Paul says he received it by (private) revelation but where is the witness to that?

 

[Lulav]

Agree. But on the surface level, it seems God changed. Abraham wouldn’t know about the test when he received the instruction. From Abraham's standpoint, God changed His mind. Similarly, we only see what we see until it is further revealed. “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away (1 Corinthians 13:9-10).”

Not so, Abraham believed God about his progeny. He also believed God when he told him the promise would come through Isaac only, not Ishmael or any other children he had.
And when going up to make the sacrifice Isaac asked him ' we have the wood and the fire but where is the lamb?'

Abraham told him that God would provide a lamb.

No changing of mind there, just pure faith and obedience.

 

[Cornelius8L]

So which do you think gave the blind man sight, Yeshua putting the mud on his eyes or the man washing away the mud?

John 9:7 Then He told him, “Go, wash in the Pool of Siloam” (which means “Sent”). So the man went and washed, and came back seeing.​

The instruction of Jesus is quite clear to us and the blind man. “Go and wash” and “he came back seeing.” – Will the blind see without following the complete instruction of Jesus to wash? Will we see Jesus without following His complete instruction from the scripture?

 

[Cornelius8L]

Hebrews 9 is speaking of the Earthly Tabernacle.

The Earthly Sanctuary


9 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

That one was patterned after the one in heaven, the one John saw.

Hebrews 9:4 tells us the Ark’s name is called the ark of the covenant. When Revelation mentioned the ark of the covenant, it points to the Ark that contains these things.

Coming out of the abyys I think is real, so whatever does come out I don't think it's figurative, ppl may wish it to be but I highly doubt it.

So the one beast will wage war with the two witnesses who can breathe fire from their mouths?

For ref:​

2 Peter 2:12 “But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;”​

Jeremiah 23:29 “Is My word not like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?​

I'm still not sure what you are referencing that for?

Jesus priesthood is said to not be like the Levitical priesthood but that of the Righteous King.

Jesus is both King and High Priest like Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:17). The mouth of God (which the rod of the High Priest represents, and Jesus is God John 1:1-4) swears (Hebrews 7:21-22), “For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well (Hebrews 7:12),” pointing to Hebrews 7:18-19.

Hebrews 7:21-22​

but Jesus became a priest with an oath by the One who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’ ” Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.​

​

God never changes from what He intended to happen, which is Jesus replacing the old covenant.​

 

[Cornelius8L]

1. Jesus and Paul are not equals
2. Jesus and his Father can be witnesses of each other that doesn't hold for any other
3. Paul says he received it by (private) revelation but where is the witness to that?

If Jesus and His Father can be witnesses of each other, why Jesus cannot be the witness of Paul? Where were the witnesses of the prophets in the old testament whenever they received revelation from God?

 

[Cornelius8L]

Not so, Abraham believed God about his progeny. He also believed God when he told him the promise would come through Isaac only, not Ishmael or any other children he had.
And when going up to make the sacrifice Isaac asked him ' we have the wood and the fire but where is the lamb?'

Abraham told him that God would provide a lamb.

No changing of mind there, just pure faith and obedience.

Hebrews 11:19 “Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and in a sense, he did receive Isaac back from death.”

Abraham intended to kill Isaac after receiving the instruction from God (Genesis 22:10), but he believed God will resurrect Isaac somehow (Hebrews 11:19). God can let Abraham kill Isaac following Abraham’s initial thought, but God stopped Abraham (Genesis 22:11-12). So from Abraham’s standpoint, it changed from to kill to no need to kill.

 

[Lulav]

So you are overwriting the clarification of the blind man himself, ‘The man answered, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and now I can see (John 9:15).”’ The blind man said he gained his sight after washing, not before washing.

They were new eyes, and some mud must have been remaining for Jesus to tell him to go wash. It might have been part of 'being clean' since the eyes were new. There weren't eyes, then Jesus, as the creator made them from the dust of the ground and his spittle. just as he made Adam. Being new they could have had some residue, and like most people in the morning when they awaken they wash their faces and clear out the sleep from their eyes. Doesn't mean you don't have eyes, just that they were clouded up.

 

[Lulav]

So you are saying what Paul said doesn’t count even if he has the Holy Spirit and Christ revealed knowledge directly to him? His testimony of two or three doesn’t count (Paul+Holy Spirit/Jesus+the Apostles)?

John 8:17-18 Even in your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. I am One who testifies about Myself, and the Father, who sent Me, also testifies about Me.”​

​

Galatians 1:12​

I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.​

Do you know how to tell if a prophet is getting his prophecy from God?

 

[Cornelius8L]

They were new eyes, and some mud must have been remaining for Jesus to tell him to go wash. It might have been part of 'being clean' since the eyes were new. There weren't eyes, then Jesus, as the creator made them from the dust of the ground and his spittle. just as he made Adam. Being new they could have had some residue, and like most people in the morning when they awaken they wash their faces and clear out the sleep from their eyes. Doesn't mean you don't have eyes, just that they were clouded up.

That’s an interesting explanation, so where do the old eyes go? Obsolete and vanished?

Anyway, let me cite directly from the Bible.

John 9:7 Then He told him, “Go, wash in the Pool of Siloam” (which means “Sent”). So the man went and washed, and came back seeing.​

John 9:11 He answered, “The man they call Jesus made some mud and anointed my eyes, and He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed and received my sight.”​

John 9:15 So the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. The man answered, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and now I can see.”​

If the blind man saw Jesus when Jesus applied the mud, why can’t he recognize Jesus when Jesus found him?

John 9:35-36 When Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, He found the man and said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” “Who is He, Sir?” he replied. “Tell me so that I may believe in Him.”​

Everyone knows Jesus called Himself the Son of Man by now.

John 9:22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews. For the Jews had already determined that anyone who confessed Jesus as the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.​

 

[Cornelius8L]

Do you know how to tell if a prophet is getting his prophecy from God?

Deuteronomy 18:21-22​

You may ask in your heart, “How can we recognize a message that the LORD has not spoken?” When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. (ref: Paul spoke a prophecy in Acts 27:23-25, testified by the writer Luke [also ref: Numbers 12:6])​

Now, I have a question for you, which book in the New Testament do you think is not from God?

 

[Lulav]

Hebrews 9:4 tells us the Ark’s name is called the ark of the covenant. When Revelation mentioned the ark of the covenant, it points to the Ark that contains these things.

As I said before, Hebrews is describing the Earthly tabernacle. The one in Revelation makes it clear it is speaking of the one in heaven. There are two (possibly three if you count the one in Ethiopia that was made for king Solomon's and Queen of Sheba's son.) but anyway, there is a Heavenly one, which came first and an earthly one.
The heavenly ones contains the Covenant only
The earthly one contained the tablets, the pot of manna and Aaron's rod.

HOWEVER, after it came back in the time of David, from the Philistines taking it, it no longer contained the pot of manna or Aaron's rod. Also during Jeremiah's time it disappeared or was hidden so the Babylonians couldn't take it.
It was not in the temple during Jesus' time on earth.

So the one beast will wage war with the two witnesses who can breathe fire from their mouths?

For ref:​

2 Peter 2:12 “But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;”​

Jeremiah 23:29 “Is My word not like fire?” declares the LORD, “and like a hammer which shatters a rock?​

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw--it was, and now is no more, but is about to come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be.

Jesus is both King and High Priest like Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:17). The mouth of God (which the rod of the High Priest represents, and Jesus is God John 1:1-4) swears (Hebrews 7:21-22), “For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well (Hebrews 7:12),” pointing to Hebrews 7:18-19.

As I said, the Righteous King Melki = King - Tzedek = righteous one or King of Righteousness.

Hebrews 7:21-22​

but Jesus became a priest with an oath by the One who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’ ” Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.​

​

God never changes from what He intended to happen, which is Jesus replacing the old covenant.​

I don't understand the connection between him being a priest and that meaning a replacement. '

It was not a replacement but a different means of operation.

Instead of being in the 'mind' it is being applied in the 'heart'.

 

[Lulav]

That’s an interesting explanation, so where do the old eyes go? Obsolete and vanished?

There were no eyes to start with. I thought I had posted this in this thread but can't find it.

----- A Child born not just blind but with no eyes.

Anyway, let me cite directly from the Bible.

John 9:7 Then He told him, “Go, wash in the Pool of Siloam” (which means “Sent”). So the man went and washed, and came back seeing.​

John 9:11 He answered, “The man they call Jesus made some mud and anointed my eyes, and He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed and received my sight.”​

John 9:15 So the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. The man answered, “He put mud on my eyes, and I washed, and now I can see.”​

Anyway let's look at the whole scenario. But we must start from the beginning of that passage.

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.​

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?​

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

He was blind from birth, like that little fellow up above. Everyone knew this about him, that is why there is so much discussion about how he looked afterwards. You can image knowing someone like this for all their life without eyes and then seeing them with eyes would surely look different and would cause a bit of confusion when asked who he was.

Back in Exodus when the LORD spoke to Moses about the job he wanted him to do, Moses demurred as some say he had a speech impediment. But look what the LORD told him.

“Please, Lord,” Moses replied, “I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since You have spoken to Your servant, for I am slow of speech and tongue.” 11 And the LORD said to him, “Who gave man his mouth? Or who makes the mute or the deaf, the sighted or the blind? Is it not I, the LORD? ​

So in light of that we can understand why Jesus replied as such.

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.​

It needed to be BIG, not just giving sight but the actual organs to see.

You see, there are those that are born without eyes. No one would ever expect them to see. It wasn't about giving sight to the blind in this case it was about giving eyes to those without them.

5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.​

Now let's match that up with something Jesus said in Matthew 6

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!​

So he not only brought the missing parts to this man but also gave him light out of darkness. This sure harks back to the creation week when God (Jesus) made man from the clay of the earth and before that brought light into the darkness. It witnessed to those there that this was not just a man, not just a prophet, but the actual Creator come to dwell among them, the True Messiah!

If the blind man saw Jesus when Jesus applied the mud, why can’t he recognize Jesus when Jesus found him?

Because he didn't have eyes to see him. After he returned from the pool Jesus was gone so he could not recognize the one who gave him 'eyes to see'.

John 9:35-36 When Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, He found the man and said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” “Who is He, Sir?” he replied. “Tell me so that I may believe in Him.”​

Everyone knows Jesus called Himself the Son of Man by now.

John 9:22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews. For the Jews had already determined that anyone who confessed Jesus as the Christ would be put out of the synagogue.​

You can see by the man's response that talking with him face to face he didn't know he was the one who created eyes for him to see.

 

[Lulav]

Deuteronomy 18:21-22​

You may ask in your heart, “How can we recognize a message that the LORD has not spoken?” When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. (ref: Paul spoke a prophecy in Acts 27:23-25, testified by the writer Luke [also ref: Numbers 12:6])​

Wonder why it referenced Acts 27?

22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you, but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar:

Is that considered to be a prophecy? Didn't he request in Acts 25 to be taken to see him?

10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. 11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.
12 Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go.

Now, I have a question for you, which book in the New Testament do you think is not from God?

It think what we have there is God's purpose.

 

[Cornelius8L]

There were no eyes to start with. I thought I had posted this in this thread but can't find it.

View attachment 324493 ----- A Child born not just blind but with no eyes.

Anyway let's look at the whole scenario. But we must start from the beginning of that passage.

1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.​

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?​

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.​

He was blind from birth, like that little fellow up above. Everyone knew this about him, that is why there is so much discussion about how he looked afterwards. You can image knowing someone like this for all their life without eyes and then seeing them with eyes would surely look different and would cause a bit of confusion when asked who he was.

Back in Exodus when the LORD spoke to Moses about the job he wanted him to do, Moses demurred as some say he had a speech impediment. But look what the LORD told him.

“Please, Lord,” Moses replied, “I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since You have spoken to Your servant, for I am slow of speech and tongue.” 11 And the LORD said to him, “Who gave man his mouth? Or who makes the mute or the deaf, the sighted or the blind? Is it not I, the LORD? ​

So in light of that we can understand why Jesus replied as such.

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.​

It needed to be BIG, not just giving sight but the actual organs to see.

You see, there are those that are born without eyes. No one would ever expect them to see. It wasn't about giving sight to the blind in this case it was about giving eyes to those without them.

5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.​

Now let's match that up with something Jesus said in Matthew 6

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. 23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!​

So he not only brought the missing parts to this man but also gave him light out of darkness. This sure harks back to the creation week when God (Jesus) made man from the clay of the earth and before that brought light into the darkness. It witnessed to those there that this was not just a man, not just a prophet, but the actual Creator come to dwell among them, the True Messiah!

Because he didn't have eyes to see him. After he returned from the pool Jesus was gone so he could not recognize the one who gave him 'eyes to see'.

You can see by the man's response that talking with him face to face he didn't know he was the one who created eyes for him to see.

That’s an adorable pic But it was not recorded that the blind has no eyes, these are speculation. It can be deformed eyeballs or something else. Either way, he still cannot see and was blind on his way to the pool. He cannot see Jesus when Jesus applied the mud is obvious.