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Featured Jesus Has Been Reigning Since Pentecost

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by jgr, Jul 1, 2017.

  1. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

    +3,171
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    King Jesus sits on the Throne of David now
    Introduction:

    1. No Old Testament prophecy is so easily seen to be fulfilled at Pentecost as the fact that Jesus is sitting upon the throne of David now.

    2. "He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. "I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men, but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. "Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever." (2 Samuel 7:13-16)

    3. "There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. " (Isaiah 9:7)

    4. "A throne will even be established in lovingkindness, And a judge will sit on it in faithfulness in the tent of David; Moreover, he will seek justice And be prompt in righteousness. " (Isaiah 16:5)

    5. "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices." (Zechariah 6:12-13)

    6. "I have made a covenant with My chosen; I have sworn to David My servant, I will establish your seed forever And build up your throne to all generations." (Psalm 89:3-4)

    7. ""Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." ' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:29-36)

    A. Jesus cannot sit on David's throne on earth: Jer 22:29-30 + Mt 1:12
    1. Earthly throne extinct:

    a. "Is this man Coniah a despised, shattered jar? Or is he an undesirable vessel? Why have he and his descendants been hurled out And cast into a land that they had not known? "O land, land, land, Hear the word of the LORD! "Thus says the LORD, 'Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper Sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.' " (Jeremiah 22:28-30)

    b. "After the deportation to Babylon: Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, and Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel. " (Matthew 1:12)

    2. Notice that Jeremiah prophesied that no descendant of Jeconiah (aka Coniah) can ever sit on the throne of David in Judah.

    3. Jesus Christ is a literal descendant of Coniah, proving the throne of David is forever in heaven.

    B. Jesus must sit on David's throne now until the second coming:
    1. Notice Jesus must reign until his enemies are defeated. The last enemy is death, which will be abolished at the resurrection:

    a. "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." ' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified." " (Acts 2:34-36)

    b. "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. " (1 Corinthians 15:25-26)

    c. "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high ... But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM" ... But to which of the angels has He ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET." (Hebrews 1:3,8,13)

    d. "Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. " (Hebrews 10:11-13)

    e. "'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Revelation 3:21)

    2. Christ is reigning NOW and will give up the throne to the Father at the second coming.

    3. It becomes clear that Jesus is seated on the throne of David right now until the resurrection at the second coming.

    C. Jesus vacates the throne of David at the second coming:
    1. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. " (1 Corinthians 15:22-28)

    2. Did you notice that? At the second coming, Jesus hands over the kingdom to God which he has ruled since the resurrection.

    3. This is exactly opposite to what pre-tribulation rapture teachers and premillennialists say. They have Christ sitting on the throne of David for the first time at the second coming, but the Bible says he has already been on the throne of David and gives it up to God, so God can be all in all.

    D. Jesus, the branch of David, is a priest on the throne at the same time: Zech 6:12-13
    1. Christ will be a priest and king at the same time:

    a. "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices." (Zechariah 6:12-13)

    2. Christ has built his temple, the church, which is the kingdom: "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. " (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

    3. Jesus is on the throne of David now:

    a. "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ" (Acts 2:30-31)

    b. "But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom. " (Hebrews 1:8)

    4. If Christ were on earth, he could not be a priest of any kind. Only in heaven can he be a priest, and then only after the order of Melchizedek.

    a. "Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; " (Hebrews 8:4)

    b. "just as He says also in another passage, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." " (Hebrews 5:6)

    5. So it is clear, that Jesus is a king now and a priest now, and all this in heaven.

    6. Jesus cannot be a king or priest on earth because he is a descendant of Jeconiah, and he is not a Levite.

    E. The earthly throne of David was apostasy that angered God from the time of Saul!

    1. Premillennialists have never considered that the entire concept of an earthly throne is an apostasy that angered God from the time of the first king Saul to the last king before the Babylonian captivity.

    2. Originally God was Israel's king and he reigned on his throne in heaven. But Israel asked for a king on earth, which was an apostasy and angered God so much he wiped out their crops. It is clear that God realized that he was being rejected and in a symbolic way, God allowed his throne to come down to earth and have men sit and rule in his place:

    a. "But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed to the LORD. The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them. " (1 Samuel 8:6-7)

    b. ""Is it not the wheat harvest today? I will call to the LORD, that He may send thunder and rain. Then you will know and see that your wickedness is great which you have done in the sight of the LORD by asking for yourselves a king." " (1 Samuel 12:17)

    c. ""When you saw that Nahash the king of the sons of Ammon came against you, you said to me, 'No, but a king shall reign over us,' although the LORD your God was your king. "Now therefore, here is the king whom you have chosen, whom you have asked for, and behold, the LORD has set a king over you. " (1 Samuel 12:12-13)

    3. Nothing could be clearer in that the earthly throne was in fact a symbol of God's throne in heaven. Notice the earthly throne of David and Solomon is called "the throne of God", The throne of the Kingdom of God".

    a. "Of all my sons (for the LORD has given me many sons), He has chosen my son Solomon to sit on the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel." (1 Chronicles 28:5)

    d. "Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father; and he prospered, and all Israel obeyed him. " (1 Chronicles 29:23)

    b. "Blessed be the LORD your God who delighted in you, setting you on His throne as king for the LORD your God; because your God loved Israel establishing them forever, therefore He made you king over them, to do justice and righteousness." " (2 Chronicles 9:8)

    c. "So now you intend to resist the kingdom of the LORD through the sons of David, being a great multitude and having with you the golden calves which Jeroboam made for gods for you. " (2 Chronicles 13:8)

    4. The next king to sit on the throne of God was David and God promised in a rare double prophecy that two of his seed would sit on his throne: Solomon on earth and Christ in heaven at the resurrection:

    a. "When your days are fulfilled that you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up one of your descendants after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. "He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish his throne forever. "I will be his father and he shall be My son; and I will not take My lovingkindness away from him, as I took it from him who was before you. "But I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever."(1 Chronicles 17:11-14)

    b. Notice that just as Solomon was king when he built the physical temple on earth, that Christ was the king who would build the church temple in heaven.

    c. Christ had to be a king to build the temple. We are the temple of God, the church, our bodies!

    d. Jesus must be sitting on the throne of David in order to build the church temple!

    5. The next physical king to sit on the throne of God was Solomon

    a. "And Solomon sat on the throne of David his father, and his kingdom was firmly established. " (1 Kings 2:12)

    b. "Besides, Solomon has even taken his seat on the throne of the kingdom. "Moreover, the king's servants came to bless our lord King David, saying, 'May your God make the name of Solomon better than your name and his throne greater than your throne!' And the king bowed himself on the bed. "The king has also said thus, 'Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, who has granted one to sit on my throne today while my own eyes see it.' " " (1 Kings 1:46-48)

    6. God was so angered by the disobedient paganism of the kings that sat on God's throne, that God removed the throne from the earth and brought it back to heaven till Jesus, the descendant of David would sit on it.

    a. "It is your destruction, O Israel, That you are against Me, against your help. Where now is your king That he may save you in all your cities, And your judges of whom you requested, "Give me a king and princes"? I gave you a king in My anger And took him away in My wrath. " (Hosea 13:9-11)

    7. Today Jesus Christ shares the throne with the Father, just as David shared the throne with God. Notice the kingdom is co-owned by God and Christ NOW:

    a. "For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. " (Ephesians 5:5)

    b. "'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Revelation 3:21)

    8. So you might say that the throne of God experienced a little early sightseeing tour because it left heaven, came to earth and stayed from Saul to the Babylonian captivity, and was then taken back to heaven to wait for Christ to die on the cross and sit on the throne of David, which was God's throne in heaven, where it always was, forever.

    9. The entire notion of an earthly throne in Jerusalem for 1000 years not only has no support, it is an affront to God because the throne rightfully has always belonged in heaven.

    10. A restored earthly throne as proposed by premillennialists would again anger God: "I gave you a king in My anger And took him away in My wrath. " (Hosea 13:9-11)

    F. Christ has built the "temple of David" in the church which replaced the physical temple of David.
    1. Passages:

    a. "In that day I will raise up the fallen booth of David, And wall up its breaches; I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old; That they may possess the remnant of Edom And all the nations who are called by My name," Declares the LORD who does this. " (Amos 9:11-12)

    b. "Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 'AFTERTHESE THINGS I will return, AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN, AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS, AND I WILL RESTORE IT, SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD, AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,' SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO. "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, " (Acts 15:14-19)

    2. It is clear that the booth or tabernacle or temple of David has been built by Christ and is our body and the church, the kingdom.

    3. Notice that if the "booth of David" is not rebuilt, then the gentiles cannot be saved.

    4. This was precisely the argument that James used to prove the Gentiles could be saved without circumcision in the Jerusalem council.

    5. Premillennialists and dispensationalists all fail to see that the idea of Christ coming back to earth to rebuild the physical "booth of David" in Jerusalem is untenable considering James says it is already built by Christ.

    6. The sign Jesus gave to the Jews was that he would tear down the physical temple of David and REBUILD it in three days after he raised from the dead.

    7. The idea of Jesus returning to build a stone temple denies the gospel and the blood sacrifice of Christ for the church on the cross.

    G. No reason to bring Christ back to earth as his work is finished here:
    1. His mission of redemption is complete: Eph 1:7-10; Col 1:13-14

    2. His revelation is complete: Eph 3:1-10; Jude 3

    3. His authority is complete: Matthew 28:18; Eph 1:20-21

    4. Hi kingdom is complete: Col 1:13; Heb 12:28

    5. His throne is Complete: Heb 4:13 Rev 3:21

    6. His name is complete: Eph 1:22; Col 3:17; Phil 2:9-10

    7. His glory is complete: Lk 24:25; 1 Pe 1:20-21

    (God's Prophetic word, Foy E. Wallace, p 193, 1945)

    Conclusion:
    1. Jesus is seated upon the throne of David right now, and has been since Pentecost.

    2. Christ is ruling in his kingdom, the church, right now and will do so until the second coming.

    3. At the second coming, Jesus will give up the throne to God so that the Father may be all in all. "For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. " (1 Corinthians 15:25-28)

    4. Rapture teaches the false doctrine that at the second coming Jesus starts to rule in his kingdom, and Jesus is a King without a kingdom now. The Bible teaches the opposite.

    5. Dispensationalists do not understand that Jesus cannot be a king or priest on earth in Jerusalem EVER, because he is a descendant of Jeconiah, and he is not a Levite.

    6. The earthly throne of David is now extinct forever. A restored earthly throne as proposed by premillennialists would again anger God: "I gave you a king in My anger And took him away in My wrath." (Hosea 13:9-11)


    Appreciation to Premillennial Theology Refuted: Christ is on Throne of David NOW

     
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  2. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

    +1,610
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    Married
    If Jesus is reigning over the earth now, He isn't doing a very good job of it!
    No, your whole premise is wrong, as the NT says; Satan is the current world ruler.
    Jesus will be King when He Returns and at the end of the Millennium, as 1 Corinthians 15:24 states; He will then hand back the Kingdom to God.
     
  3. LilShepherdBoy

    LilShepherdBoy Seek First the Kingdom of God & His Righteousness

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    Jesus is seated at the right hand of God.

    He is also The Prince of peace. We've had more wars and deaths the last two thousand years than any other period in history.

    Mark 16:19 New King James Version (NKJV)
    So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

    Ephesians 1:20 New King James Version (NKJV)
    which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,

    Colossians 3:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
    If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.


    Acts 7:55 New King James Version (NKJV)
    But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,

    Romans 8:34 New King James Version (NKJV)
    Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
     
  4. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

    +4,910
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    There is both a present and future aspect to the kingdom of God.


    Present:

    Mat_12:28  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

    Luk_16:16  The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.


    Future:

    Rev 11:15  Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 
    Rev 11:16  And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 
    Rev 11:17  saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 
    Rev 11:18  The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." 

    .
     
  5. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Obviously His Kingdom is not complete until the last "sheep" has been saved.
    Obviously His revelation is not complete until all prophecies have been fulfilled.

    Your primary mistake is to assume that you can find Biblical Truth by harmonizing
    two or three related Scriptures. The measure of Biblical Truth has NEVER been to
    harmonize some select passages (most heresies are based on that model), instead,
    the only measure of Biblical Truth is to harmonize ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES.

    When you can NAME Daniel's Four Kingdoms within the context of Daniel 7:11-12,
    then let me know.

    BTW.... the event shown in Daniel 7:11-12 is the SAME EVENT shown in Rev 19:20
    So you need to show what "Kingdoms" continue to exist on earth for a period that
    is specifically NAMED the "Season and Time" on earth AFTER the Fourth Kingdom
    has been "cast alive into the Lake-of-Fire" and/or the "Burning Flame"

    As you can see...
    there is quite a bit of RELATED SCRIPTURES that have not been harmonized into
    your theory above.

    Having said that.... you are partially correct.....
    Jesus and the Saints did rule from the Cross to the time when Satan is "loosened"
    from the Bottomless Pit

    Rev 20:4.... and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    But HERE is where the Lord rules again (after Satan's "Little Season")

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



    .
     
  6. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's no mention of Daniel or four kingdoms in my post.

    But FYI, the four kingdoms in Daniel 7 are the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Grecian, and Roman.
     
  7. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You've got your locales wrong.

    Per the foregoing, Jesus has reigned from heaven since Pentecost. But His kingdom is not of this world/earth (John 18:36), it's in the hearts of His children (Luke 17:20-21), and is exclusively spiritual in nature (Romans 14:17). His children become kings and priests in His spiritual kingdom (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:6). All of this has been in progress since Pentecost; none of it awaits a future fulfillment. At the end, upon His second coming, He will deliver His spiritual kingdom up to the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24).
     
  8. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    That is simply not possible because of Daniel 7:11-12 and Rev 19:20.
    Unless you are teaching that the people in the Babylonian Kingdom and Persian Kingdom
    and the Greek Empire continue to exist on earth for a specific period the Bible NAMES as
    the "Season and Time" on earth AFTER the people in the Roman Empire have already been
    "cast alive into the Lake of Fire" (or "given to the Burning Flame").

    Your theory is immediately DESTROYED by Daniel 7:11-12 and Rev 19:20.
    Your theory is REFUTED in Scripture and, therefore, is already PROVEN to be false.




    .
     
  9. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Grecian empires were conquered ("they had their dominion taken away"), but there were still plenty of surviving Babylonians, Medo-Persians, and Greeks around ("yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time"). The western Roman Empire was ultimately completely destroyed, much of it by fire. Out of its ruins emerged the ten horns/kings of Daniel 7:7,24.

    A little history lesson for you today.
     
  10. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Oh brother. Why do we have to hear this every single time?

    The scripture says he is seated on his throne right now. How can you possibly refute that simply by making the point that the earth is no paradise? There is no requirement that this place be "heaven on earth" when Christ reigns.

    You simply can't claim that Jesus is not seated on his throne, without denying clear scripture. If your idea of what his reign should look like doesn't match what you see in the world around you, then it's your idea that needs to change, not scripture.
     
  11. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    And your mistake is to push aside the obvious truths found in those "two or three related scriptures" and to keep looking.
     
  12. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    Before you hurt yourself patting yourself on the back... talking about history lessons....
    I will point-out to you AGAIN that Daniel 7:11-12 and Rev 19:20 are both talking about
    the same event and that event was the people living in the fourth Beast being "cast alive"
    into the eternal Second Death.

    So... are you teaching that people continue to exist on earth for a "Season and Time"
    after other people are cast alive into the eternal flame?

    No... you cannot harmonize your theories with Dan 7:11-12 and Rev 19:20.
    That is why you intentionally IGNORED the passages I quoted and you only repeated
    the error I corrected.

    Again.... you have a problem.
    You cannot harmonize your theory
    with Daniel 7:11-12 where the BIBLE (not me)
    says the "previous Beasts had their lives prolonged for a SEASON AND TIME"
    AFTER the Fourth Beast was destroyed in the "Burning Flame" or "Lake of Fire".


    Your PROBLEM is that you cannot explain the "Season and Time"
    on earth AFTER the Fourth Beast is destroyed... and this "Season and Time"
    is shown in several other passages - only proving again-and-again
    that your theory contradicts the Bible.

    If you want to be taken seriously
    you will FIRST have to harmonize a "Season and Time" on earth
    when the "previous beasts have their lives prolonged" AFTER the Fourth Beast
    has been "cast alive" into the "Burning Flame".


    If you want to offer an "informed opinion" on Daniel's Four Kingdoms
    you must be able to show how the PEOPLE living in the Babylonian Empire
    and the Persian Empire and Greek Empire continue to exist on earth for a "Season and Time"
    AFTER the people living in the Roman Empire are "cast alive" into the Eternal Fire....

    BTW... is sounds to me as if you do not even understand
    that the PEOPLE living in Daniel's Fourth Beast are the SAME PEOPLE
    living in the Revelations Beast.... You are aware of that.... right?


    Seriously.... you do realize Daniel's Fourth Beast and the Revelation Beast
    represent the same period of history.... right?

    .



    ..
     
  13. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    No.... you need to think a little deeper.
    The measure of Biblical Truth is NOT harmony between some select verses
    it is harmony of ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES.

    Here is an example:
    I could provide several passages which seem to teach that salvation is the result
    of water baptism. In fact that is an essential doctrine in some denominations and churches.
    However, I could also provide several passages that teach there is NO ACTION a person
    can take to become saved - that it's a sovereign gift of Grace. The truth about the process
    of salvation can only be found by harmonizing ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES.

    In other words.... most heresy is based on partial truth.
    Therefore, we would EXPECT it to be able to harmonize with some select Scriptures.
    That is why the measure of Biblical Truth has NEVER been harmony of some select verses,
    it has ALWAYS been the harmony of all related Scripture.


    Seriously.... your argument is to find two-or-three passages that support a doctrine....
    and then to INTENTIONALLY IGNORE RELATED PASSAGES....
    what kind of hermeneutics is that?

    I am not aware of anyone of note EVER teaching such a thing.
    Did you learn that hermeneutics method from someone else,
    or did you just make-it-up yourself?


    .
     
  14. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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    While the Bible says the saints "live and reign with Christ" during the Millennial Kingdom.
    The Bible also says that Satan, and his chief emissary on earth, the Anti-Christ RULE
    during Satan's "Little Season"... until the sound of the Seventh Trumpet.


    It seems pretty clear [Rev 11] that Jesus RULES at the sound of the Seventh Trumpet.
    1 Co 15 confirms this reality... Satan is defeated at the "Last Trump".



    Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven,
    saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ;
    and he shall reign for ever and ever.


    In fact, 2Th2 reinforces this fact by revealing that the "Man of Sin"
    could not be "revealed" until AFTER the Holy Spirit was taken away.
    That is because Satan could not be "loosened" until AFTER the Holy Spirit
    was removed... in the OT this is shown as God "hiding His Face" for a moment.

    Again.... before anyone can offer an "informed opinion" on a subject they must first
    ensure their theory harmonizes with ALL RELATED SCRIPTURE and not just two-or-three
    select verses. Since most heresies are based on partial-truth we can EXPECT those heresies
    to harmonize with SOME select Scripture... but not with ALL RELATED PASSAGES.



    .
     
  15. jgr

    jgr Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You must be a prophet. Such erudition in a Newbie is too remarkable to not be characteristic of a prophet.

    But a prophet afflicted by some measure of illiteracy.

    Daniel 7
    11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
    12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

    "people living in the fourth Beast being "cast alive" into the eternal Second Death."

    Where do you see
    1. People? The word does not appear in the verse. The beast is symbolic of a kingdom/empire. Much of it was destroyed by fire. That is all we're told. Any discussion about people is purely speculative.
    2. Cast alive? Even more speculative. Doesn't appear even by implication.
    3. Eternal second death? The speculation has reached a crescendo. Completely nonexistent.

    There can be many types of "burning flames." This one refers to the fires which destroyed the empire. It has nothing to do with hell fires.

    ""Season and Time" is shown in several other passages"

    Where? That specific expression is found only in Daniel 7:12. Its duration is not revealed, but could reasonably mean the durations of the surviving vestiges of the conquered empires.

    Daniel's fourth beast is the imperial Roman empire. Revelation 19's beast is interpreted in Reformation eschatology to be the papal Roman empire, with which I concur. Two different beasts.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  16. LastSeven

    LastSeven Amil Supporter

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    Well then, if the Bible seems to contradict itself you have to reconcile it so that both statements are true. Don't just pick one and discard the other.
     
  17. 5thKingdom

    5thKingdom Newbie

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  18. nChrist

    nChrist AKA: Tom - Saved By Grace Through Faith Supporter

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    To the OP - no and no. The Second Coming of Christ happens at the end of the Tribulation Period, and neither have happened yet. Jesus Christ will make peace and rule and reign for a thousand years. The world will change completely during the Reign of Christ, and it simply hasn't happened yet. To the OP - you need to start over with a good Sunday School.
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    There is nothing in the text that says the "Holy Spirit" is the thing taken away.
    Satan seems to be doing a thorough job of deceiving now, when the Holy Spirit is here.


    We have those under the Blood of the Lamb in Revelation 12:11.
    A person cannot be under the Blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church.


    Therefore, you have failed to harmonize the scriptures as you suggest.

    Have you harmonized the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8?

    .
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Jesus does not sit on David Throne until the day of his return.

    It is in psalms 2, the exact day that Jesus will be anointed by God as the King of Israel.

    1. Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? [the armies of the world gathered at Armageddon]

    2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

    3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

    4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

    5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

    6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

    7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. [begotten thee - as king. God anoints Jesus the King of Israel, to sit on David's throne, the day that Jesus returns to Earth]
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
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