Jesus Died for. . .

[jimmyjimmy]

Limited atonement is a false gospel, with a false Jesus.

Would you care to make an argument rather than simply make an assertion?

Should I believe you simply because you say so, or because you've used the word, "false" twice?

 

[Dave O'Brien]

Would you care to make an argument rather than simply make an assertion?

Should I believe you simply because you say so, or because you've used the word, "false" twice?

I explained it. Perhaps you ignored it.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world 1Jn 2:2 (unlimited)
His death does not save us, we are saved by His life Rom 5:10 (unlimited)
The justification of life is made for all men Rom 5:18 (unlimited)

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I explained it. Perhaps you ignored it.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world 1Jn 2:2 (unlimited)
His death does not save us, we are saved by His life Rom 5:10 (unlimited)
The justification of life is made for all men Rom 5:18 (unlimited)

Do you believe in Hell?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

His death does not save us

That idea is something other than Christian. May I ask where you got it from?

 

[Dave O'Brien]

Do you believe in Hell?

Of course. Silly Rabbit.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Of course. Silly Rabbit.

I'm not certain why you do. It seem inconsistent.

 

[Dave O'Brien]

That idea is something other than Christian. May I ask where you got it from?

It is exclusively Christian. Again, I showed you where Paul teaches this, but you must have ignored it.

Jesus died for our sins (our=all sins, for all men, for all time) it is finished.

His death makes it possible for any man to be saved, as God was propitiated by the death of His Son. 1 John 4:10; 1 John 2:2; Romans 3:25; Romans 5:6-10; Romans 5:18

His death does not save men. His death reconciles the debt for sin. It is finished. His death was a once for all sacrifice for sin (See Hebrews chapters 7-10). Salvation is receiving His life, by the Spirit whom He has given those who believe the gospel. John 6:63; 1 John 5:11-12; Ephesians 1:13; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:13; Romans 8:9

 

[Dave O'Brien]

I'm not certain why you do. It seem inconsistent.

Well that's cause you have no idea what the gospel is, who Jesus is, or what He accomplished by His sacrifice and resurrection.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It is exclusively Christian. Again, I showed you where Paul teaches this, but you must have ignored it.

Jesus died for our sins (our=all sins, for all men, for all time) it is finished.

His death makes it possible for any man to be saved, as God was propitiated by the death of His Son. 1 John 4:10; 1 John 2:2; Rom 3:25; Rom 5:6-10; Rom 5:18

His death does not save men. His death reconciles the debt for sin. It is finished. His death was a once for all sacrifice for sin (See Hebrews chapters 7-10). Salvation is receiving His life, by the Spirit whom He has given those who believe the gospel. John 6:63; 1 John 5:11-12; Eph 1:13; 1 John 3:24; 1 John 4:13; Rom 8:9

Why do believe in Hell? You just said that Jesus died for all men.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Well that's cause you have no idea what the gospel is, who Jesus is, or what He accomplished by His sacrifice and resurrection.

For someone who just walked in the door, you are being quite rude. In case you haven't yet discovered this feature, you can ignore any member. . .

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Is it God's intention to save some, all or none. Those are the options.

You tell me which, and as always, show me the scripture, please.

This is another one of those questions which require a yes and no answer.

Does God actually want everyone to turn to Him (repent) and love and trust Him… and be saved? Of course. Look at the first and greatest commandment. Then there is John 3:16. But it is clear by this and many other scriptures than not all will believe in Christ and be saved. We do not know exactly why God has chosen some to be the Elect and some not. The scriptures are clear that none of us get any credit for our salvation (find me some scriptures that say otherwise), so it is indeed all about God’s divine wisdom and sovereignty.

I have edited a famous Christian teacher here (you can guess who):
So how God can say in Isaiah 46:10, "I do all my good pleasure" and then say, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked"? But He does let the wicked be eliminated. There is a paradox here that also provides a tension for us.

Let me put it to you very simply: all men born in Adam are born with the sin nature, and because they bear a sin nature, they are all damned to hell. It is our sin in Adam and the nature we bear because of that, that condemns all men to hell. As all men go to hell, God, in his marvelous grace, saves some. The rest are damned, but not simply because of the sin in Adam—but primarily because of the sin of unbelief. John 3 says, "<i>You are condemned already because you"</i>--what?--<i>"believe not."</i> Now, this is where the tension comes.

Salvation is for the Elect, predestined, the purpose of God. Damnation is by the unbelief of men. Now you say, "How do you resolve that?" I don't resolve that! I can't resolve that. But, I know God is perfect and He resolves it perfectly and that's the best we can do with it.

So, what do we do? When we're saved, who do we thank? God. And when men go to hell, who do we blame? Them. You say, "I don't understand that." That's right. And neither do I. The implications are this: if I've been saved, I praise God, I rejoice, I thank him; and when I go to an unbeliever, I don't say, "Are you Elect?"--like Spurgeon said, pull up their shirt-tail and see if they have an "E" stamped on their back. I go to them and I say, "You'll be damned by your unbelief" and I plead with them to >i>"believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."</i> And I leave the resolution to God, who I trust in all things.

You might also check out: Does God (Really) Desire All to Be Saved? | Desiring God

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Why do believe in Hell? You just said that Jesus died for all men.

He died for all, but not all will accept it. We ALL deserve hell. But some believe and some do not. Why do some believe and some do not? We cannot answer that in any kind of detail, but we know that God has always known who would and who would not, and we know His judgment is perfect and is 100% trustworthy.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

He died for all, but not all will accept it. We ALL deserve hell. But some believe and some do not. Why do some believe and some do not? We cannot answer that in any kind of detail, but we know that God has always known who would and who would not, and we know His judgment is perfect and is 100% trustworthy.

If He died "for" then those He died "for" would never be fond guilty. God is just. He would never demand two payments for one debt.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

I know that I'm answering your questions? If they have problems with that so be it.

Error is error. Say what you want and we will examine the scriptures and reject it.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

[staff edited]

So you are saying that I can do whatever I want in life, even to be a rapist and murderer and never repent and still go to heaven? So why in the world would I become a believer? You are saying it will not matter so why should I believe? The easy answer of course is John 3:16. Only those who believe will be saved. Your belief in universalism means you have no real belief in the scriptures, however your revisionism misinterprets the entire direction of the scriptures.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Particular Redemption

Let me begin by saying I am not very fond of the term “limited atonement’. All but Universalists limit the atonement in some way. I prefer the term “Particular Redemption” as it speaks more plainly to the teaching of the Scriptures and leaves less room for misunderstanding. I will take as my text John 10:11. I am the Good Shepherd: the Good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep. Now if that were the only passage of Holy Scripture that speaks to the doctrine of a definite and particular redemption we would still be bound to believe what it says. There seems to me to be absolutely no wriggle room in this statement by our Lord.
I want to speak to this issue from 3 perspectives as the Scriptures speak: Christ as our Surety, Christ as our sin bearer and Christ as our substitute. It is my purpose to show how and why we can trust Christ’s work for all our salvation.
A proper understanding of the atonement of Christ is crucial to the Gospel. There really is no Gospel without it. Let me see if I can explain: The good news of the Gospel lies in the truth of what Christ accomplished on the cross. Either He, by His death, actually accomplished redemption for someone or His death really means nothing. Where is the good news in an atonement that didn’t atone? Where is the wonderful message in a redemption that that didn’t redeem? How can a sinner look to a Savior with confidence who didn’t actually save? The only hope a sinner can have is that Christ did actually make an atonement for his sin. This is the ground of assurance we preach and believe. Our hope is in the finished work of the Savior.
Now our text says that the Good Shepherd gives His life for the sheep. No one took His life, they had neither the authority nor power to do so, He gave it up for the sheep. He repeats the fact that He lays down His life for the sheep again in verse 15 of John 10. He makes it even more plain in verses 17and 18 of the same chapter. He told Pilate that he had no power over Him unless it was given him from above. (John 19:11) Christ laying down His life for the sheep was a voluntary act on His part. There was no force or coercion involved. Infinite love and fathomless mercy toward the sheep moved Him to act.

A question?
This brings us to a question: How is it possible that Christ could voluntarily lay down His life for the sheep? It is true that no court in the world would allow such a thing. No righteous judge could possibly put to death an innocent person. God says in Proverbs 17:15, He that justifieth the wicked and he that condemeth the just, even they both are an abomination to God. How then can God be righteous and put to death that One who was holy, harmless, undefiled and separate from sinners? The answer rests in the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ was no mere man. A mere man has no authority to lay down his life because his life doesn’t belong to him. All men answer to a higher authority, God, and have no right to give that which doesn’t belong to them. That isn’t the case with Christ. As God, He has every right over His own life and may give it as He pleases. He alone is able to lay down His life for the sheep. The word translated power in John 10:18 is authority.
Are you still with me? I know I have taken the long way around to get here but I believe it was necessary to lay a foundation in order to properly grasp the meaning of Scripture when it speaks of Christ’s atonement. So with what has been already said in mind lets now look at 3 ways the Bible speaks of Christ. I hope to answer the question as to how God can righteously put to death His darling Son in the place of chosen sinners. Once that has been answered we are able to see that the death of Christ on the cross was for the sheep alone.

Continued:

Yes, it is hard to argue from the scriptures against anything you have written here. The rub for many does not have to do with the saved but with those who are not saved. This is why universalism (which is patently untrue according the great preponderance of scriptures) even exists. But Jesus made clear that there are not only sheep that are His, but also goats, pigs, and wolves in sheep's clothing. His sheep hear His voice (He told us), but goats do not hear. Why they do not is never made totally clear, except perhaps by Paul in Romans 9 (the sovereignty of God). We either trust God's judgment or we do not.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Yes, it is hard to argue from the scriptures against anything you have written here. The rub for many does not have to do with the saved but with those who are not saved. This is why universalism (which is patently untrue according the great preponderance of scriptures) even exists. But Jesus made clear that there are not only sheep that are His, but also goats, pigs, and wolves in sheep's clothing. His sheep hear His voice (He told us), but goats do not hear. Why they do not is never made totally clear, except perhaps by Paul in Romans 9 (the sovereignty of God). We either trust God's judgment or we do not.

We must allow for mystery. Sheep hear. Goats don't.

 

[Jeshu]

Error is error. Say what you want and we will examine the scriptures and reject it.

So you are saying that I can do whatever I want in life, even to be a rapist and murderer and never repent and still go to heaven? So why in the world would I become a believer? You are saying it will not matter so why should I believe? The easy answer of course is John 3:16. Only those who believe will be saved. Your belief in universalism means you have no real belief in the scriptures, however your revisionism misinterprets the entire direction of the scriptures.

Me in error? It seems to me you are in major error what you say I say and I really said, did you read what I wrote or assumed you knew what I wrote without reading it? All my words are all backed up Scripture while your words are not back up by anything at all.

I invite you to prove me in error of Scripture in anything I wrote in this thread and I will thank you dearly. But please use Scripture to prove what you say and not your own words and please don't make any false accusation and assumptions about what I say or think Scripture teaches without using the Word of God to prove it, as you clearly done in the above, please stick to what I wrote, in context to how I wrote it, and then prove me wrong from Scripture please that is how this ought to go according to Scripture.

You might have to do it in a pm though for I'm not allowed to discuss who is saved according to Scriptures from the OP on this thread, no matter how many proof texts I used from the Word of God he doesn't agree nor puts up any texts to prove I'm wrong just like you don't do either.

Lets do this in love like Scripture advises us discuss Hi Word instead of judge one another to hell.

Peace

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Jesus died for all could lead to universalism, or it could, as many see it, Jesus died for all, but only some accept it.

Yep. The dying for all is a universal potential, but receiving this salvation is conditional on belief. We see this reality over and over in the NT, starting with John 3:16. Otherwise, why evangelize (Matthew 28) and baptize?

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

We must allow for mystery. Sheep hear. Goats don't.

There it is.