Jesus did not come to save the ((world))

[miknik5]

Okay. But that doesn't mean God can never redeem them if He wants to. God desires to save all so it would bring him pleasure to save all. That must mean some (many, actually) can be saved postmortem.

As it is written, GOD is long suffering not wanting any to perish but that all should come to repentence and the knowledge of The truth

 

[surrender1]

As it is written, GOD is long suffering not wanting any to perish but that all should come to repentence and the knowledge of The truth

Exactly!

 

[Monk Brendan]

HE does however say HE stands at the DOOR and any man who hears HIS VOICE and opens THE DOOR, HE will come in and "eat/fellowship" with him and he with HIM

Now let me ask a question, How can someone open the DOOR when he has heard His Voice, when Jesus IS the door. This is poor logic. If you have listened to Jesus, and have cooperated with Jesus, how is Jesus going to stand in your way, and make you "OPEN" Him?

 

[surrender1]

Please respond to my question regarding 2 Thessalonians 2

When HE is taken our of the way is there hope for those who did not have a love for the truth?

2 Thes. 2:1-17 was written to and for and about the people to whom Paul wrote. It already happened in the first century.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Peace...peace?

“For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” (1 Thess 5:3 KJV)

 

[miknik5]

Now let me ask a question, How can someone open the DOOR when he has heard His Voice, when Jesus IS the door. This is poor logic. If you have listened to Jesus, and have cooperated with Jesus, how is Jesus going to stand in your way, and make you "OPEN" Him?

John 5

Not all have heard HIS VOICE now

Those who have have already passed from death to LIFE and will not come under condemnation

A time will come when ALL will hear the voice of THE SON of GOD and will be raised to be judged

But not ALL will be raised to life

Only those whose names are found in The book of life

 

[miknik5]

If today you hear HIS VOICE harden not your heart was the call of all the prophets

It meant repent turn from your ways

And yet as the prophecy of Isaiah says:

Make the hearts of these people fat and give them eyes that see not and ears that hear not

Lest they should understand with the heart

Turn

And HE should heal them

Not everyone knows that they need a physician

 

[miknik5]

And HE said in John 9

For judgement I have come
And HE refers the "blind man from birth" ( who is healed) to Isaiah's prophecy

 

[Monk Brendan]

For any Catholics reading the thread, Pope John Paul II's statements about universal salvation might also be an eye-opener. I know they floored me when I first encountered them.

Pope John Paul II was NOT talking about universal salvation. The link goes to someone's blog, who gives a general link to the Vatican, but not to the specific page where the quotes were taken.

While Universal salvation might be the HOPE of the Catholic Church, it does not teach that this is true. God supplies grace, through baptism, through the Word, through many other ways, but HE will NOT override any person's free will. I was Baptized on July 1, 1951, shortly after I was born.From that time on, God was working in my life to draw me to Him. It took 26 years for me to begin cooperating, but, His Grace has saved me, and God willing, He will greet me with, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

 

[ClementofA]

While I believe that God is sovereign, I do NOT believe that He will over ride our free will. As such, no matter how much God wants ALL to be saved, some turn toward Him, and some turn away.

There's nothing stopping Love Omnipotent from trying a thousand or a million times, or as many times as it takes, to save a being, until he finally surrenders.

 

[Rajni]

Pope John Paul II was NOT talking about universal salvation.

No? He only mentions it like 20 times.

The link goes to someone's blog, who gives a general link to the Vatican, but not to the specific page where the quotes were taken.

That someone's blog is mine here on CF, and the quotes can be found on the Vatican site.

While Universal salvation might be the HOPE of the Catholic Church, it does not teach that this is true. God supplies grace, through baptism, through the Word, through many other ways, but HE will NOT override any person's free will.

He does it all the time. Sure, we have a limited range of choices we can make, but our wills are not sovereign.

 

[sparow]

In some sense the whole world will be saved. It just depends on what you mean by "whole" and "world".

The world is saved from them who seek to destroy the world.

 

[Monk Brendan]

He does it all the time. Sure, we have a limited range of choices we can make, but our wills are not sovereign.

This might be your belief, but according to ALL of the Pre-Reformation Churches, that belief is wrong.

 

[Strong in Him]

He does it all the time. Sure, we have a limited range of choices we can make, but our wills are not sovereign.

When?
Where is there an example of God "overriding someone's free will"?

If God was willing to do that, don't you think he would have done it with Adam - or maybe not given him any will in the first place?
He would have then saved himself the heartache of a sinful nation, and world; no flood, no exile for the Israelites, no need for Jesus, no one to complain of sickness or not being healed, and there'd probably be trillions of people, as there'd be no death either.

 

[Hank77]

I'm not sure why you quoted these scriptures unless you are saying that all people who are saved will speak in tongues and prophecies.
This prophecy was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost.

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

 

[Hank77]

I agree, but only because saving faith is only given by God. From your perspective God opens the door, but it is up to man to walk through it.

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Jewish rabbi:
Shir Hashirim Rabba, fol. 25, 1: “God said to the Israelites, My children, open to me one door of repentance, even so wide as the eye of a needle, and I will open to you doors through which calves and horned cattle may pass.”

 

[Jennifer Rothnie]

I agree, but only because saving faith is only given by God. From your perspective God opens the door, but it is up to man to walk through it.

Saving faith is not given by God. Faith is being persuaded of the truth that Jesus is who He claims and the only name by which to be saved. God certainly provides the persuasive evidence (Christ's death & Ressurection, conviction of the Spirit, Scripture, the preaching of the gospel, etc.) but He doesn't make anyone believe it is true.

Scripture, over and over, places the command to believe upon man. (Acts 20:21, Rom 10:16-17, I Thess 2:13, Gal 3:2, etc.) To perform the work of God (vs. dead works of righteousness) we must believe in the one He sent (Jn 6:28-29.)

Indeed, the gospel is, 'believe for the forgiveness of sins,' (Acts 10:43) not, 'well, some of you listening are among the chosen few that God makes believe and not among the many that just can't believe. If you get that belief, then, congrats! If you can't believe, well, nothing you can do about it.'

What does it mean that it is by grace we have been saved, through faith, and that this is not of ourselves but is the gift of God?
How are we to understand the sequence and part that man plays in his salvation?
What does it mean that Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith?

Also, how can you say you're not 'better' than the non-believer down the road, then turn around and say you're more receptive to the Holy Spirit than others? Isn't having a heart more receptive to God a better trait than having a hardened heart which rejects Him?

It is not pride, since faith is in every way contrasted with boasting. Is it better in the eyes of God to have humility and admit one's own sin? Certainly - but humility is the opposite of pride, not a mark of pride. One isn't 'better' than another fallen human for being willing to admit the depths of your sin while the other is not.

Faith is in every way contrasted with boasting, for it is based in humility, in a proper regard for one's position in regard to Christ. If a man proclaims, "I have placed my faith in Christ!" this is not a boast, but humility, for he is testifying that, "I was a sinner under condemnation for my wicked deeds, one in need of salvation, a salvation that only Jesus the Messiah could provide. I believe the Messiah is who He claims, with all authority given to Him. I have repented and given my life to Him, have died to myself and risen with him, and God for the sake of Christ's righteousness and His glory shall grant me eternal life."

What does it mean in Rom 3:27 that boasting is excluded because of the law that requires faith?

The idea that a person acknowledging his sin and turning to the only one who can save him in faith is
'boasting' is nowhere taught, nor implied, in scripture.

I agree that it is humbling to be a recipient of true faith. I don't agree that you, or he, or I, had any part in it. That is why no man can boast.

We are recipients of salvation through faith, not recipients of faith. It is humbling because faith in the work and person of Christ is the required method - not any dead works of the law we could do on our own.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Not, 'this faith is given so that some may believe and be righteous') There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. (Not, 'God gave some faith in Christ so that those few would be atoned for.') He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. - Rom 3:20-28

Also, let's not forget the countless scriptures telling us to 'hold firm our confidence, (Heb 3:6)' 'hold fast' to faith (I tim 1:19) lest we suffer shipwreck, see that what we heard from the beginning remains in us' (I Jn 2:24) so that we may remain with the Father, hold our conviction firm to the very end (Heb 3:14, etc.) and other exhortations to continue to remain in Christ through faith and to hold fast to our faith.

 

[Noscentia]

Saving faith is not given by God; He doesn't make anyone believe it is true.

We simply disagree on this.

Indeed, the gospel is, 'believe for the forgiveness of sins,' (Acts 10:43) not, 'well, some of you listening are among the chosen few that God makes believe and not among the many that just can't believe. If you get that belief, then, congrats! If you can't believe, well, nothing you can do about it.'

The Father draws us to the Son, the Son loses none of what the Father gives Him. Our salvation doesn't depend on human will or exertion but on the mercy of God. You cannot choose salvation for yourself, you simply don't have that authority. The gospel, the whole of the bible, is God's breath and those who are chosen are the ones who honestly hear it and believe. That is the purpose of evangelizing, it is one way in which God makes alive His elect.

It is not pride, since faith is in every way contrasted with boasting. Is it better in the eyes of God to have humility and admit one's own sin? Certainly - but humility is the opposite of pride, not a mark of pride. One isn't 'better' than another fallen human for being willing to admit the depths of your sin while the other is not.

Hank was the one who claimed to be more receptive to the Holy Spirit than others, I would consider that a positive trait and by extension I would consider it a negative to not have said trait. Would you disagree that it is better to be saved than condemned? Or to be more receptive to God's voice than not to be? If you had a choice, which trait or path would you choose? Would you consider your choice to be the 'better' of the two?

No one has yet addressed the problem that if, as the Bible claims, no one can resist God's will, and God, according to some, wishes to save every person, why does He fail so much? And if we're free agents, does that mean there was/is no assurance of God's plans or decrees? Could Mary have declined to carry Christ of her own will, and if so, did God have a backup plan? Free will makes no sense in the face of the omniscient, omnipotent God of scripture.

 

[Rajni]

This might be your belief, but according to ALL of the Pre-Reformation Churches, that belief is wrong.

When?
Where is there an example of God "overriding someone's free will"?

Anything over which we don't have control would be an example of limitations to our free will.

Again, we can choose to do certain things, but only within Divinely-set parameters.

I can't choose to fly without a plane, for instance. That only happens in dreams (and it's awwwwwesommmmme! ).

I can't shape-shift (though my shape has taken it upon itself to shift in ways I don't prefer ).

I can will, with all my might, to change the fact that I was born in the U.S.A., but I won't be successful.

I can will till I'm blue in the face that rivers flow uphill rather than downhill, but chances are it won't happen.

I can will till the cows come home that I didn't die in Adam that I would need to be made alive again in Christ, but if that's a fact, my will is helpless against it. I've been "forced" into that situation, my will was overridden.

I could will that my entry into heaven is on my own terms rather than on God's terms, but ... well ... I think you get it at this point.

So I simply place the ultimate restoration of all in the same category as those other things for which God didn't ask for my vote. But this doesn't mean He has to override our wills in some kind of forceful way to accomplish that. He's got all eternity to woo people into a love relationship with Him. No one has to have their wills "forced" or "overridden". Love for God can come about the same, authentic way it does for one's children, spouse, parents, etc. I wasn't forced to love anyone, so why would I be forced to love God, who is infinitely more lovable than the most lovable human being? Not to mention He's Love itself.

I find it interesting, though, how many Christians seem more concerned about not having assurance of free will than assurance of salvation. Is God's will really that repulsive to them? Is the whole "Not my will but Thine be done" thing really so bad? For Christians? Really?

 

[PollyJetix]

Now let me ask a question, How can someone open the DOOR when he has heard His Voice, when Jesus IS the door. This is poor logic. If you have listened to Jesus, and have cooperated with Jesus, how is Jesus going to stand in your way, and make you "OPEN" Him?

A figure of speech ought never to be applied literally to the fullest possibility.
Jesus as the Door is one metaphor.
And the choice to open the door of the heart to Him is another metaphor.
Each of those are perfectly Biblical.
Don't try to meld those two metaphors into one.