Jesus did not come to save the ((world))

[miknik5]

So you are saying that in God's infinite wisdom, infinite resourcefulness, and infinite love, God can't somehow woo, persuade, and lovingly convince millions and millions and millions of humans to come to the light...even postmortem with endless opportunities and time that stretches out into eternity? That even this great God of ours is unable to redeem and restore some humans, not some… Millions and millions and millions… God is unable to heal millions of broken sinners? That's a very weak God.

Nope

That isn't what I am saying

Do you somehow deny that THE LIGHT came into the world?

Do you somehow deny that men haven't heard that JESUS is the LIGHT of the world?

Donyou somehow deny that those who deny HIM before men HW will deny before HIS FATHER in Heaven

Do you deny that if HE had not come we would have no sin
But because HE has and done what no other has done we need a "cloke" for our sins

Yet this was to fulfil what is written concerning HIM

They hated HIM without a cause

 

[Noscentia]

Believing/faith is not a work.

I agree, but only because saving faith is only given by God. From your perspective God opens the door, but it is up to man to walk through it.

that does not make me a wiser or better person, just maybe one who was more receptive to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

God is omniscient, God created you, He has always known you. If what you say is true then He knew from the foundation of the world that you would be receptive to His call and others would not. We just disagree on whether this was intentional or not. Also, how can you say you're not 'better' than the non-believer down the road, then turn around and say you're more receptive to the Holy Spirit than others? Isn't having a heart more receptive to God a better trait than having a hardened heart which rejects Him?

I can honestly say that he is not boastful at all. Accepting what God has done for you is humbling.

I agree that it is humbling to be a recipient of true faith. I don't agree that you, or he, or I, had any part in it. That is why no man can boast.

I don't believe or see anywhere in the scriptures where God has done anything Randomly. He didn't randomly choose Abram/Abraham, Issac, or Jacob, Moses, the Apostles, including Paul, and yet the Calvinist believes the God randomly chose them? Where is it in scripture that God randomly chooses people?

Actually I'd argue that Moses is a great example of someone with none of the expected qualities being chosen. God spoke through Moses as even Moses admitted he didn't have the charisma to persuade anyone that he'd actually met God. God doesn't need some special sort of person anyhow, even Christ said as much, saying God could raise up children of Abraham from stones. Joseph's brothers sought to do evil to their brother, but God meant it for good, it was all in His plan.

Are you saying then that the apostles and the prophets had some better trait that others lack that caused them to be chosen? If God had chosen someone else instead of Abraham, would He have failed to accomplish His mission? Is it intentional that some or all non-believers lack these traits? Did God create them knowing they lacked those traits, knowing they'd never believe? Or is it more likely that God can accomplish His decree using anyone He chooses?

 

[surrender1]

Nope

That isn't what I am saying

Do you somehow deny that THE LIGHT came into the world?

No.
Do you somehow deny that THE LIGHT came into the world?

Do you somehow deny that men haven't heard that JESUS is the LIGHT of the world?

Of course, there are many who have died without *hearing* about Jesus.

Donyou somehow deny that those who deny HIM before men HW will deny before HIS FATHER in Heaven

If you look at Mt. 10:16-23, this was a warning in regards to the coming judgment in AD 70.

Do you deny that if HE had not come we would have no sin But because HE has and done what no other has done we need a "cloke" for our sins
Yet this was to fulfil what is written concerning HIM
They hated HIM without a cause

Do you somehow deny that God is perfectly capable to woo unrepentant sinners to himself postmortem? He has eternity to do it and yet you deny God is able to do such a thing. Now, if you say, "Oh, but he can do it; he just won't do it." Then what kind of God do you believe in? A God who *can* save all human beings but doesn't?! A God who *can* and who also *desires* all to be saved but won't do it! Think about that.

Tell me this, do you somehow deny that *all* means *all* when Paul wrote that one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for *all* men? (Romans 5:18)

 

[Christie insb]

Please clarify the "demigod" part.

 

[Christie insb]

[QUOTE="chaela, post: 71334783, member: 208992"

In any case, God has to be demoted to the more limited demi-god model in order for Christian Partialism to work.

I guess not. The power to influence humanity to such a thorough degree belongs to Adam alone.
There's just some things humans can accomplish that God Himself cannot. Gotta love those ego-derived doctrines! [/QUOTE]

 

[miknik5]

No.
Do you somehow deny that THE LIGHT came into the world?

Of course, there are many who have died without *hearing* about Jesus.

If you look at Mt. 10:16-23, this was a warning in regards to the coming judgment in AD 70.

Do you somehow deny that God is perfectly capable to woo unrepentant sinners to himself postmortem? He has eternity to do it and yet you deny God is able to do such a thing. Now, if you say, "Oh, but he can do it; he just won't do it." Then what kind of God do you believe in? A God who *can* save all human beings but doesn't?! A God who *can* and who also *desires* all to be saved but won't do it! Think about that.

Tell me this, do you somehow deny that *all* means *all* when Paul wrote that one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for *all* men? (Romans 5:18)

Tell me this
Is that all Paul said?
And

When Paul wrote letters to instruct and correct and teach who were they written to?

Those inside the BODY
Or those outside

Paul also said "who am I to judge those outside the BODY"

Further, if all are saved there would be no need to preach THE GOSPEL

And yet that is what Christ commissioned Paul and all His disciples to do

 

[surrender1]

Tell me this
Is that all Paul said?

Paul wrote many things. But ultimately Jesus' one act of obedience leads to life for *all* men, according to Paul. I simply take his word for it.

Further, if all are saved there would be no need to preach THE GOSPEL

That's nonsense. Are you saying that the preaching of the good news of Christ Jesus doesn't change people's lives in the present? If the good news changes people's present lives, why in the world wouldn't we preach the good news to them? (And all people are not already saved. But all WILL be saved)

 

[miknik5]

Paul wrote many things. But ultimately Jesus' one act of obedience leads to life for *all* men, according to Paul. I simply take his word for it.

That's nonsense. Are you saying that the preaching of the good news of Christ Jesus doesn't change people's lives in the present? If the good news changes people's present lives, why in the world wouldn't we preach the good news to them? (And all people are not already saved. But all WILL be saved)

Are you saying all believe?

For as we know the verdict is that the LIGHT has come into the world

And you can read the rest

 

[miknik5]

If anyone does not receive you, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them

 

[miknik5]

Sorry

Not all know the GIFT of GOD

Those who received HIM
HE gave to he right to be called children of GOD


Are you saying all are born again of HIS SPIRIT?

Are you saying there are no enemies of the cross

Are you saying GOD wasn't please that through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believed

Paul said more about that

 

[miknik5]

Surrender1,

You may believe
But you can't bring anyone in through the DOOR who doesn't have the right Wedding garment

Matthew 22

So
Provide the right Wedding garment

Otherwise they have no "cloke" for their sins (John 15

 

[miknik5]

Paul wrote many things. But ultimately Jesus' one act of obedience leads to life for *all* men, according to Paul. I simply take his word for it.

That's nonsense. Are you saying that the preaching of the good news of Christ Jesus doesn't change people's lives in the present? If the good news changes people's present lives, why in the world wouldn't we preach the good news to them? (And all people are not already saved. But all WILL be saved)

According to Paul
That isn't true

For all who say they are of Israel aren't of ISRAEL

One is physical and passing

The other isn't

And as well 2 Corinthians 2 does not agree that all will be saved

The cross is the power of GOD to those who believe

To those who believe it is the pleasing aroma of CHRIST and that is LIFE

To those who don't believe, it isn't

 

[surrender1]

Are you saying all believe?

For as we know the verdict is that the LIGHT has come into the world

And you can read the rest

Paul wrote that Jesus' one act of obedience leads to life for *all* men. That must mean all WILL believe at some point, whether in this life or the next.

 

[surrender1]

If anyone does not receive you, shake the dust off your feet as a testimony against them

That doesn't mean they'll never believe.

 

[surrender1]

Sorry
Not all know the GIFT of GOD
Those who received HIM
HE gave to he right to be called children of GOD
Are you saying all are born again of HIS SPIRIT?

No, I'm saying that Paul wrote that Jesus' one act of obedience leads to life for *all* men. That must mean all WILL be born again of his spirit at some point, whether in this life or the next.

Are you saying there are no enemies of the cross

No, I'm saying that at some point there will no longer be enemies of Christ.

Are you saying GOD wasn't please that through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believed

No, I'm sure God was pleased. What I'm saying is that since Paul wrote that Jesus' one act of obedience leads to life for *all* men. That must mean *all* will believe, at some point, whether in this life or the next.

 

[surrender1]

Surrender1,

You may believe
But you can't bring anyone in through the DOOR who doesn't have the right Wedding garment

Okay. But that doesn't mean God can never redeem them if He wants to. God desires to save all so it would bring him pleasure to save all. That must mean some (many, actually) can be saved postmortem.

 

[Monk Brendan]

The terms according to you require humans to do the work of choosing to accept Christ and that God's intervention is entirely resistible. If God wants to save person x and person x rejects Him, God has failed to save someone He wanted to save.

While I believe that God is sovereign, I do NOT believe that He will over ride our free will. As such, no matter how much God wants ALL to be saved, some turn toward Him, and some turn away.

 

[Rajni]

Please clarify the "demigod" part.

In other words, in order for Christian Partialism to work, God would have to be demoted in some way from an all-powerful God to semi-powerful demigod for the hell thing to work.

Different variations of partialism propose that God wants to save everyone but can't (He's helpless), or He could save everyone but won't (He's heartless). Universalism, however, proposes that He both can and He will (He's Almighty).

I find the last option the most God-glorifying.

 

[miknik5]

Okay. But that doesn't mean God can never redeem them if He wants to. God desires to save all so it would bring him pleasure to save all. That must mean some (many, actually) can be saved postmortem.

Please respond to my question regarding 2 Thessalonians 2

When HE is taken our of the way is there hope for those who did not have a love for the truth?

 

[miknik5]

In other words, in order for Christian Partialism to work, God would have to be demoted in some way from an all-powerful God to semi-powerful demigod for the hell thing to work.

Different variations of partialism propose that God wants to save everyone but can't (He's helpless), or He could save everyone but won't (He's heartless). Universalism, however, proposes that He both can and He will (He's Almighty).

I find the last option the most God-glorifying.

HE wants to glorify HIS SON