Jesus did not come to save the ((world))

[surrender1]

What happens to those who did not hear HIS VOICE who did not enter in before the judgement?

They were swept away in the flood. It's documented in The Jewish War by Flavius Josephus.

When they are raised, those who had no part in the first resurrection, what is their outcome?

Hopefully, they will eventually be redeemed and restored. Rev. 21 says the gates are never shut. And Paul wrote that just as Adam's trespass led to condemnation for *all* men, Jesus' obedience leads to justification and life for *all* men. If all means all in the first half, then all means all in the second half.

 

[Hank77]

So does God choose those for whom he intervenes? Or does a man have to initiate it?

God is the initiator.

I thought about trying to answer all your questions. I thought about how Bible scholars, on both sides, who were/are much more qualified than I am, have debated these doctrines for several centuries now, so what would make me think that I could contribute in any more meaningful way. So, seeing that you mentioned the Arminian view, I should just give you a reference to a Bible scholar with that view. A link to his commentary for Ephesians 2:8-10.
Ephesians 2 Clarke's Commentary

How can a Calvinist witness God's love and the cross to a sinner and at the same time tell them that they may or may not be one of God's chosen people?

 

[surrender1]

Surrender1,

You'll have to explain your contradicting arguments because they make no sense o me

You'll have to be more specific.

Is your argument that you don't. Rlidve there is a hell

The biblical evidence for the traditional doctrine of hell (i.e. eternal torment) is extremely weak.

yet you believe there is a judgement?

There was a national judgment of Israel in AD 70. That was how Yahweh was said to deal with disobedient nations during the days of the Old Covenant. There was also a judgment of mankind and that judgment was seen at the cross--God judged us worthy of saving. As far as consequences, there are always consequences for our behavior, in this life and in the next.

Or is your argument that you don't believe there is a hell but outside jerusalems open gates is a refuse called Gehenna where the dead may still hope to enter in?

Rev. 21 speaks of the gates to the city of God never being shut. Rev. 21 doesn't speak of "a refuse called Gehenna" and I never spoke of Gehenna ever being a refuse either.

 

[miknik5]

Jesus' warnings were to Israel and the coming judgment that took place in AD 70.

It's over then! The day of GOD's wrath has ended!

Peace...peace?

Are you sure?

 

[miknik5]

You'll have to be more specific.

The biblical evidence for the traditional doctrine of hell (i.e. eternal torment) is extremely weak.

There was a national judgment of Israel in AD 70. That was how Yahweh was said to deal with disobedient nations during the days of the Old Covenant. There was also a judgment of mankind and that judgment was seen at the cross--God judged us worthy of saving. As far as consequences, there are always consequences for our behavior, in this life and in the next.

Rev. 21 speaks of the gates to the city of God never being shut. Rev. 21 doesn't speak of "a refuse called Gehenna" and I never spoke of Gehenna ever being a refuse either.

You"re right

You see in your explanation of this place outside of the gates of Jerusalem You conveniently called that place which we identify as HELL ..."Gehenna"

And I conveniently called your portrayal of this burning place where dead bodies and idolatry and pagan worship are practiced "a refuse "

Definitely not a REFUGE nor a place of hope for those who are there

 

[surrender1]

Id like to discuss
2 Thessalonians 2

Okay.

I'd also like to discuss the two witnesses, the 144,000 witnesses, and the angels with the everlasting GOSPEL

I'd like to know who these are witnessing to

Everyone.

And of whom they are testifying to

Jesus.

And why?

To share that the kingdom is at hand.

And why will some be deceived so that they may be condemned who did not have a love of the TRUTH

Many of the leaders loved their position of power and wanted to keep that intact.

Will these witnesses stand in the judgement

In judgement for what?

and will their testimony match yours?

Um...well, do you share the same stuff Jesus preached to his disciples and nothing more? Or do you have further revelation from Paul that you include in your sharing of the message of Christ?

 

[surrender1]

It's over then! The day of GOD's wrath has ended!

Peace...peace?

Are you sure?

The notion of God's wrath was used in the days of the Old Covenant and how it was said Yahweh dealt with disobedient nations.

And when you write, "Peace...peace?" I have no idea what you're asking.

 

[surrender1]

You"re right

You see in your explanation of this place outside of the gates of Jerusalem You conveniently called that place which we identify as HELL ..."Gehenna"

And I conveniently called your portrayal of this burning place where dead bodies and idolatry and pagan worship are practiced "a refuse "

Definitely not a REFUGE nor a place of hope for those who are there

You'll have to clarify. I don't know what you're trying to say.

 

[miknik5]

Okay.

Everyone.

Jesus.

To share that the kingdom is at hand.

Many of the leaders loved their position of power and wanted to keep that intact.

In judgement for what?

Um...well, do you share the same stuff Jesus preached to his disciples and nothing more? Or do you have further revelation from Paul that you include in your sharing of the message of Christ?

the kingdom is being built up even now

 

[miknik5]

You'll have to clarify. I don't know what you're trying to say.

On your long post explaining Gehenna, you wanted to imply that Gehenna, this heap of burning bodies where live men went to worship molech is not symbolic of HELL

But it is

 

[Der Alte]

Not sure we're saying something so different on this part here. As I wrote in my original post on this, it's from "The History of Hell" by Mark Edward. You could do a search on Aramaic translation and Isaiah and second death. If you want the primary source, I'll have to go back and look it up. In any event, there is no strong biblical evidence for the idea of hell as an eternal torture chamber for those who disobey God.
edit to add: Okay, got it for you.
Targum Isaiah 65.5-6: 'Their retribution is in Gehenna where the fire burns all the day. See, it is written before me: I will not give them respite during (their) life, for theirs is the retribution of their sins and I will hand over their body to the second death.' (translation by Martin McNamara, Targum and Testament Revisited)
Hebrew Isaiah 66.24: 'And they shall go out and look at the dead bodies of the people who have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.'
Targum Isaiah 66.24 is very close to the Hebrew, but instead of concluding with 'and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh', the Targum says 'and the wicked shall be judged in Gehenna, until the just shall say of them, "we have seen enough"'.

I imagine that the book "The History of Hell" by Mark Edward is quite interesting but without credible, verifiable, historical evidence his opinions are no more credible or compelling than any other person. Since Mohammad will not go to the mountain I will bring the mountain to Mohammad. I posted this earlier in [post #226] this is a link to the previous post.
===========
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online​

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.

 

[miknik5]

And you further wanted to imply that these had hope that because the gates of JERUSALEM will remain open (which is only after HE has put the last of HIS enemies under HIM) that they might have hope to be reconciled afterwards


And yet those whose names were not found in the book of life along with death and HELL are lastly (and to be noted before the NEW JERUSALEM comes down from heaven like a BRIDE adorned for HER HUSBAND) cast into the lake of fire

Therefore there is no hope for them

 

[Mountainmanbob]

How can a Calvinist witness God's love and the cross to a sinner and at the same time tell them that they may or may not be one of God's chosen people?

If it causes them to repent and trust in the Lord -- probably chosen.

If it's foolishness to them -- probably (at least at this time) showing signs of not being chosen.

His sheep will know his voice -- once the blinders have been removed -- requires a new heart.

Still nothing man can do -- heart transplant performed only by the Holy Spirit.

M-Bob

 

[surrender1]

On your long post explaining Gehenna, you wanted to imply that Gehenna, this heap of burning bodies where live men went to worship molech is not symbolic of HELL

But it is

I'll post the long version for clarity:

"The Valley of the Son of Hinnom is first mentioned in Joshua 15.8 in the narrative of the Hebrew bible. Nehemiah 11.30 indicates that the area's name was trimmed to simply the Valley of Hinnom.

The Book of Joshua identifies the Valley of Hinnom as just outside the gates of Jebus, a city in Canaan. Jebus would eventually be renamed to 'Jerusalem', but the Valley of Hinnom retained its name. The Valley of Hinnom is associated with human sacrifices offered to the Canaanite deity Molech (e.g. Joshua 18.16; Second Kings 23.10).

A common claim in modern literature is that the Valley of Hinnom was used as Jerusalem's trash dump, kept perpetually burning, but the earliest known source for this claim comes from the twelfth century AD. However, the claim does have some circumstantial support in the bible: Jeremiah identifies the Valley as outside the Potsherd Gate (and Jeremiah then smashes a jar in the Valley), and Nehemiah also appears to place the Valley outside the Dung Gate; the Valley had some association with broken pottery and feces, the city's waste.

Our primary interest in the Valley of Hinnom begins with the Book of Jeremiah, where the prophet twice uses the Valley as an illustration. Just as the people in Jerusalem had burned their own children as sacrifices in the Valley of Hinnom (7.31; 19.4-5), so God would ignite a fire outside the gates of Jerusalem (17.27) and the people would be 'slaughtered' and buried in the Valley (7.32; 19.6).

After the Babylonian exile, readers of the Book of Isaiah inferred the Valley's presence in verse 66.24 and actually inserted its name into the text in Aramaic translation-paraphrases of the book. The Valley of Hinnom appears further in the Mishnah, Tosefta, and Talmud (collections of Rabbinic discussions, rulings, and theological musings), where it is variously identified as a place of remedial punishment or total annihilation.

In Hebrew, the Valley of Hinnom is 'Ge-Hinnom', transliterated into Greek as 'Gehenna'. In the New Testament, 'Gehenna' is mentioned just short of a dozen times between the Synoptic Gospels (Mark, with its dependents Matthew and Luke), and once in the Letter of James. When, for example, Jesus warns that it would be better to lose one's eye than to suffer in 'Hell', the Greek text uses 'Gehenna', the Valley of Hinnom. The way Jesus describes the Valley of Hinnom shows an affinity with the imagery found in Isaiah and Jeremiah, rather than the afterlife-punishment found in the later Rabbinic sources: Jesus warns of fire in the Valley of Hinnom (Jeremiah 17.27; 19.6), it is where the fire cannot be extinguished and the consuming maggots live on (Isaiah 66.24), and he especially invokes it when talking about the imminent destruction of Jerusalem and its leadership. Jesus also describes the Valley of Hinnom as the place where God can destroy both soul and body, echoing Isaiah 10.18, a prophecy about the downfall of the Assyrian kingdom." (Mark Edward)

 

[surrender1]

I imagine that the book "The History of Hell" by Mark Edward is quite interesting but without credible, verifiable, historical evidence his opinions are no more credible or compelling than any other person.

You must have missed the edit to my post where I included quotes from the Targum (Aramaic translation.)

For further reading: Red Theology: A Primer on the Vocabulary of 'Hell'

 

[Hank77]

If it causes them to repent and trust in the Lord -- probably chosen.

If it's foolishness to them -- probably (at least at this time) showing signs of not being chosen.

His sheep will know his voice -- once the blinders have been removed -- requires a new heart.

Still nothing man can do -- heart transplant performed only by the Holy Spirit.

M-Bob

If I were a Jew who had not met Jesus but through the Apostles I was told what Jesus did was for some people but not all people, so that some of them can be saved, and maybe I was one of the lucky ones, that was randomly chosen to be saved, but if not I would be condemned.....that would not be 'good news' to me as a Jew. It would not be a better covenant. So I would stick with the relationship I had with God through the old covenant. Under the old covenant God said that if I had faith, loved and obeyed Him, He would save me, no ifs about it.

 

[Christie insb]

The scientific support isn't enough? To be in war against God is to be in war against own Father. It is denial of own Existence.

So if the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, what is that? A figment of our imagination?

 

[Hank77]

The terms according to you require humans to do the work of choosing to accept Christ

I have questions for you.
Would you agree that part of receiving salvation is accepting that one is a sinner and must repent? Is repenting a 'work' that one does? Does God do the repenting for the sinner?

 

[Der Alte]

...
Jeremiah identifies the Valley as outside the Potsherd Gate (and Jeremiah then smashes a jar in the Valley), and Nehemiah also appears to place the Valley outside the Dung Gate; the Valley had some association with broken pottery and feces, the city's waste.

My problem with this source is the writer does not quote the scripture he refers to. He says e.g. "Jeremiah identifies the Valley as outside the Potsherd Gate" His citations are very sloppy. The word "potsherd" does not occur anywhere in the book of Jeremiah in the KJV or the JPS. This source also says that "Nehemiah also appears to place the Valley outside the Dung Gate." Nehemiah mentions the valley of Hinnom only one time but not in association with the dung gate. Nehemiah 11:30
According to Gill the dung gate leads into the valley of Jehoshaphat not Hinnom.
According to Keil and Delitszch the dung gate is on the SW side of Zion.
According to Jeremiah the valley of Hinnom is near the East gate. Jeremiah 19:2

Our primary interest in the Valley of Hinnom begins with the Book of Jeremiah, where the prophet twice uses the Valley as an illustration. Just as the people in Jerusalem had burned their own children as sacrifices in the Valley of Hinnom (7.31; 19.4-5), so God would ignite a fire outside the gates of Jerusalem (17.27) and the people would be 'slaughtered' and buried in the Valley (7.32; 19.6).

Accurate so far.

After the Babylonian exile, readers of the Book of Isaiah inferred the Valley's presence in verse 66.24 and actually inserted its name into the text in Aramaic translation-paraphrases of the book. The Valley of Hinnom appears further in the Mishnah, Tosefta, and Talmud (collections of Rabbinic discussions, rulings, and theological musings), where it is variously identified as a place of remedial punishment or total annihilation.

The name valley of Hinnom does not occur in the Targum Isaiah 66:24 which I happen to have.

Targum Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men, the sinners, who have rebelled against my Word : for their souls shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and the wicked shall be judged in hell, till the righteous shall say concerning them, we have seen enough. ​

...When, for example, Jesus warns that it would be better to lose one's eye than to suffer in 'Hell', the Greek text uses 'Gehenna', the Valley of Hinnom. The way Jesus describes the Valley of Hinnom shows an affinity with the imagery found in Isaiah and Jeremiah, rather than the afterlife-punishment found in the later Rabbinic sources: Jesus warns of fire in the Valley of Hinnom (Jeremiah 17.27; 19.6), it is where the fire cannot be extinguished and the consuming maggots live on (Isaiah 66.24),

This is patently false as I have shown more than once in this thread from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud. This writer twists sources to support his assumptions/presuppositions.

and he especially invokes it when talking about the imminent destruction of Jerusalem and its leadership. Jesus also describes the Valley of Hinnom as the place where God can destroy both soul and body, echoing Isaiah 10.18, a prophecy about the downfall of the Assyrian kingdom." (Mark Edward)

The Assyrian empire was merely killed in this life which has nothing to do with Gehenna..
I would advise that you not believe every "source" you read unless you check the citations yourself.

 

[surrender1]

.​