Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

Leaf473

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What do you think this verse means? Here it is in the full context

13 Thou shalt not oppress thy neighbor, nor rob him: the wages of a hired servant shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
Well, verses are a man-made tradition.

So Yes, we can look at the law in the larger context:

“You shall not steal.

“‘You shall not lie.

“‘You shall not deceive one another.

“‘You shall not swear by my name falsely, and profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

“‘You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him.

“‘The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning.

“‘You shall not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling block before the blind; but you shall fear your God. I am the Lord.

“‘You shall do no injustice in judgment.

“You shall not be partial to the poor, nor show favoritism to the great; but you shall judge your neighbor in righteousness.

And where the sentences are broken up is a matter of translator interpretation as well. The same passage in a translation that uses smaller sentences:

‘Do not steal.

“ ‘Do not tell lies.

“ ‘Do not cheat one another.

“ ‘Do not give your word in my name and then be a false witness. That would be treating the name of your God as if it were not holy. I am the Lord.

“ ‘Do not cheat your neighbor.

Do not rob him.

“ ‘Do not hold back the pay of a hired worker until morning.

“ ‘Do not ask for bad things to happen to deaf people.

Do not put anything in front of blind people that will make them trip. Instead, have respect for me. I am the Lord your God.

“ ‘Do not make something wrong appear to be right.

Treat poor people and rich people in the same way.

Do not favor one person over another. Instead, judge everyone fairly.
NIRV
Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 19 - New International Reader's Version

What does that particular law say, then? I think it says, to put it into my own words, that when someone works for you, pay them at the end of the day.

Jesus, of course, is referring to that law in one of his parables in Matthew 20:
"When evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his manager, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages.' "

God's law really is based on his character!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Well, verses are a man-made tradition.

So Yes, we can look at the law in the larger context:

“You shall not steal.

“‘You shall not lie.

“‘You shall not deceive one another.

“‘You shall not swear by my name falsely, and profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

“‘You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him.

“‘The wages of a hired servant shall not remain with you all night until the morning.

“‘You shall not curse the deaf, nor put a stumbling block before the blind; but you shall fear your God. I am the Lord.

“‘You shall do no injustice in judgment.

“You shall not be partial to the poor, nor show favoritism to the great; but you shall judge your neighbor in righteousness.

And where the sentences are broken up is a matter of translator interpretation as well. The same passage in a translation that uses smaller sentences:

‘Do not steal.

“ ‘Do not tell lies.

“ ‘Do not cheat one another.

“ ‘Do not give your word in my name and then be a false witness. That would be treating the name of your God as if it were not holy. I am the Lord.

“ ‘Do not cheat your neighbor.

Do not rob him.

“ ‘Do not hold back the pay of a hired worker until morning.

“ ‘Do not ask for bad things to happen to deaf people.

Do not put anything in front of blind people that will make them trip. Instead, have respect for me. I am the Lord your God.

“ ‘Do not make something wrong appear to be right.

Treat poor people and rich people in the same way.

Do not favor one person over another. Instead, judge everyone fairly.
NIRV
Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 19 - New International Reader's Version

What does that particular law say, then? I think it says, to put it into my own words, that when someone works for you, pay them at the end of the day.

Jesus, of course, is referring to that law in one of his parables in Matthew 20:
"When evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his manager, 'Call the laborers and pay them their wages.' "

God's law really is based on his character!
So why would not take this very reasoning and use it with the 4th commandment. You do not need to use your personal interpretation of the Sabbath because God spelled out for us very clearly. Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13, Leviticus 23:3

I agree God's laws are based on His character. You cannot separate God from God's holy laws that are in the Most Holy of His Temple now written in our hearts and minds. The Sabbath is part of that covenant of Ten and the Sabbath is the holy day of the Lord thy God according to God. Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13 Genesis 2:1-3 which is why the Sabbath is also our holy day as well. Exodus 20:8, Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20 forever Isaiah 66:23
 
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BNR32FAN

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One poster claims Jesus didn't fulfill ALL the Law, but Jesus in Matt 5: 17 said; “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Notice Jesus didn't say some of the laws, like the poster claims, because there is no qualifier in His words. Then Jesus went on to tell us that nothing could be removed from said Law until everything was accomplished. The poster also claims that indeed some of the commands of the Law have been fulfilled and are no longer required to be kept. It appears that the poster has been given the discretion to choose what commands can be disregarded.

To those of us posters that believe Jesus did what He came to do, fulfill all the Law, the poster threatens that unless we abide by the commands of the Law we are in a lawless state. According to him/her we have to keep the commands of the Law with emphasis on the Sabbath command in order to be saved.

So, the reason for this thread is to discuss Matt 5:17-18. Did Jesus fail to fulfill what He came to do or did He keep His word and during His stay on this Earth bring an end to the Law? We have no qualms about His fulfilling and bringing to a final end the prophecies concerning Him. Why do some hesitate to believe He did the same for the Law?

Many people don’t know what He meant when He said He came to fulfill the law. It means He fully kept the law in perfection so that He could be the perfect unblemished sacrifice for us all.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Many people don’t know what He meant when He said He came to fulfill the law. It means He fully kept the law in perfection so that He could be the perfect unblemished sacrifice for us all.

That's part of it and Jesus came to be the example for us to follow. Fulfill here means to fill full, not destroy i.e. "fulfill" as many people teach which is the opposite of what Jesus taught.

2 Peter 2:21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked
John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to magnify the law and shows examples of this. Isaiah 42:21 Matthew 5:17-30
 
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Leaf473

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So why would not take this very reasoning and use it with the 4th commandment. You do not need to use your personal interpretation of the Sabbath because God spelled out for us very clearly. Exodus 20:8-11, Isaiah 58:13, Leviticus 23:3

I agree God's laws are based on His character. You cannot separate God from God's holy laws that are in the Most Holy of His Temple now written in our hearts and minds. The Sabbath is part of that covenant of Ten and the Sabbath is the holy day of the Lord thy God according to God. Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13 Genesis 2:1-3 which is why the Sabbath is also our holy day as well. Exodus 20:8, Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20 forever Isaiah 66:23
Well, following your reasoning, then we both do not work on the Sabbath and we pay employees at the end of each day.

People who pay their employees at the end of each week or twice a month are breaking God's eternal law. They won't be the ones that the dragon is making war with in Revelation 12.

Both the Sabbath law and the pay people at the end of the day law are clearly spelled out.

Now, does that whole situation sound correct to you? It sounds absurd to me.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Well, following your reasoning, then we both do not work on the Sabbath and we pay employees at the end of each day.

People who pay their employees at the end of each week or twice a month are breaking God's eternal law. They won't be the ones that the dragon is making war with in Revelation 12.

Both the Sabbath law and the pay people at the end of the day law are clearly spelled out.

Now, does that whole situation sound correct to you? It sounds absurd to me.

In the context of the post it is referring to not stealing which includes wages and is not talking about businesses, it is referring to personal servants- robbing them of wages, paying them after they completed the work, which is a good rule.

From your posts it comes across as you keep looking for examples outside the Ten Commandments so you can apply it to the Sabbath commandment so you can keep the Sabbath the way you prefer versus the way God wrote the commandment. You have free will but you might want to take a step back and ask yourself why do you keep doing this.
 
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Leaf473

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In the context of the post it is referring to not stealing which includes wages and is not talking about businesses, it is referring to personal servants- robbing them of wages, paying them after they completed the work, which is a good rule.

From your posts it comes across as you keep looking for examples outside the Ten Commandments so you can apply it to the Sabbath commandment so you can keep the Sabbath the way you prefer versus the way God wrote the commandment. You have free will but you might want to take a step back and ask yourself why do you keep doing this.
I believe you are also keeping the "pay at the end of the day" law the way you prefer versus the way God wrote the law.

The reason I keep bringing it up is to show that the kind of teaching that many here on CF put forward about the ten commandments doesn't work when applied to the rest of God's eternal laws.

If we say that it is okay for us to decide that,
based on things like context,
it is okay to do things different from what is actually written, then I'm cool with that. Then let's just apply that to all of God's eternal laws consistently.

To bring it around to the thread topic,
then to me, a nice consistent approach is to say that Jesus fulfilled the law such that we no longer have to keep it exactly as it is written. But we definitely keep all of the laws in principle.

And if we all keep the Sabbath in principle, then that's cool! And then we don't need to look at each other and say You're not keeping the Sabbath exactly as it is written. We are each keeping the Sabbath as we see the principle written on our heart.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I believe you are also keeping the "pay at the end of the day" law the way you prefer versus the way God wrote the law.

The reason I keep bringing it up is to show that the kind of teaching that many here on CF put forward about the ten commandments doesn't work when applied to the rest of God's eternal laws.

If we say that it is okay for us to decide that,
based on things like context,
it is okay to do things different from what is actually written, then I'm cool with that. Then let's just apply that to all of God's eternal laws consistently.

To bring it around to the thread topic,
then to me, a nice consistent approach is to say that Jesus fulfilled the law such that we no longer have to keep it exactly as it is written. But we definitely keep all of the laws in principle.

And if we all keep the Sabbath in principle, then that's cool! And then we don't need to look at each other and say You're not keeping the Sabbath exactly as it is written. We are each keeping the Sabbath as we see the principle written on our heart.
I'm sorry I do not see where you have demonstrated your case. I am also not the one you need to convince. God gives us very clear instructions but never takes away our free will. I see a lot of opinions here that have not been backed up with scriptures. We usually do not agree when it comes to the law of God so we will continue to agree to disagree. The Lord is coming back soon enough and will straighten it all out. God bless
 
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Leaf473

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I'm sorry I do not see where you have demonstrated your case. I am also not the one you need to convince. God gives us very clear instructions but never takes away our free will. I see a lot of opinions here that have not been backed up with scriptures. We usually do not agree when it comes to the law of God so we will continue to agree to disagree. The Lord is coming back soon enough and will straighten it all out. God bless
Of course we can stop talking, if you wish.

The law is just such an amazing thing,
Psalm 19 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul.

And I like to talk about all of it, see how all of it works together
Deuteronomy 6 These words, which I command you today, shall be on your heart; and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.

God bless you, too!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Of course we can stop talking, if you wish.

The law is just such an amazing thing,
Psalm 19 The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul.

And I like to talk about all of it, see how all of it works together
Deuteronomy 6 These words, which I command you today, shall be on your heart; and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.

God bless you, too!
Yes God's law is perfect. God wrote His perfect laws and we should not add our words to His. Proverbs 30:5-6
 
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Leaf473

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Yes God's law is perfect. God wrote His perfect laws and we should not add our words to His. Proverbs 30:5-6
Absolutely! Not add, not take away.

Another law from Leviticus 19
You shall not endanger the life of your neighbor.

It's in line with love your neighbor as yourself, and gives us more information. Sounds to me like it would apply to mask wearing today!

And thanks be to God that Jesus magnified and completed that law as well as all the rest.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Absolutely! Not add, not take away.

Another law from Leviticus 19
You shall not endanger the life of your neighbor.

It's in line with love your neighbor as yourself, and gives us more information. Sounds to me like it would apply to mask wearing today!

And thanks be to God that Jesus magnified and completed that law as well as all the rest.

So why don’t you apply this to the 4th commandment?
 
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Leaf473

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So why don’t you apply this to the 4th commandment?
I do! I want to apply the same consistent approach to all the laws.

Trying to keep the letters of all the laws leads to absurdities, imo. Paying your employees or household servants at the end of every day, not wearing cotton/polyester blends.

I think the consistent approach is to keep the principles of all the laws, including the fourth commandment.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I do! I want to apply the same consistent approach to all the laws.

Trying to keep the letters of all the laws leads to absurdities, imo. Paying your employees or household servants at the end of every day, not wearing cotton/polyester blends.

I think the consistent approach is to keep the principles of all the laws, including the fourth commandment.

It is impossible to obey the Sprit of the law without obeying the letter. You might want to consider studying up on the New Covenant. Many SDA posters have tried to talk to you about it and it's something might want to prayerfully consider.
 
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prophecy_uk

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The people had not received the Holy Ghost, Apostle Paul asked what baptism they had been baptized with ? They said to John ( the baptist) and Paul said they should believe on Jesus Christ ( they had not heard of any Holy Ghost)

Then they hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Ghost came upon them.

Then do we not know that we which were baptized, were baptized into the death of Jesus Christ, buried in that baptism to His death with Him, and like Christ was raised up by glory of the Father we should also walk in newness of life.

We were required to be branches in Christ, this is us being planted together in the likeness of His death, to be also in the likeness of His resurrection, our old man is crucified with Him ( before His crucifixion we are the old man) and we in the body of sin that becomes crucified once crucified with Christ in baptism.....





Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.




Law keeping and believing, such as being circumcised then is not any thing, but a new creature is everything.

The Galatians received the Spirit by the hearing of faith, not by what the law had done, but by what Jesus had done, by His faith to die for us and to rise again, this is exampled in Abraham believing God of the promise of faith and this is righteousness..




Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.




Jesus taught how new wine must be put into new bottles, to preserve both. Jesus led the way in this, by the blood of the new covenant, which was shed for many, and by His body which was broken for us, to make the new body.
Then we are told, that Christ died for all as all were dead, then we know no man any more after the flesh, we know Christ now also without the flesh. Then if anyone is in Christ ( we being the branches in the vine) they are a new creature, all becomes new, all is of God, who reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ, giving us this ministry of reconciliation..



Matthew 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;




Jesus then in His flesh abolishes the law of commandments, to make this new man.

The old man then is put off, and his deceitful lusts and deeds, to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, to put on the new man, and after God this is created in righteousness and TRUE HOLINESS, ( the Lord sanctified previously a day which had no truth, the sabbath, but now sanctifies all our days truly through Christ) then they put away lying ( they do this by being given the Spirit of Christ by believing in Christs rising from the dead to life) as now we being in the vine are members one of another ( the branches cannot be in the vine until all can be members one of another)

The new man put on is renewed in knowledge ( renewed in the spirit of your mind) after the image of Him that created him, and then Christ is all in all ( then the vine is in all the branches and all the branches are in Him)

Then as the elect of God they put on bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness and long suffering, forgiving one another and putting ion charity as this is the bond of perfectness ( put on Christ the new man)...





Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Ephesians 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.




The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes us free from the law of sin and death, which is all that is before the resurrection of Christ.

Boasting then is by the law of faith ( by nothing else it is all nothing)

Bearing one another's burdens is the law of Christ, and to be found in Him ( in the vine and we the branches) it is not by the law, but it is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith, is to know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, to be made conformable unto His death...




Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
 
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Aussie Pete

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All was accomplished when the Lord said "it is finished" on the Cross. But to me the Law being fulfilled does not bring an end to it, I think Christians do indeed keep it, just in a way befitting Christians. To me it means something more like "transformed." For instance in the Eucharist and priesthood and "make living sacrifices of yourselves" we keep the Laws concerning priesthood and Sacrifice. The same for all the rest.
Catholics may observe the OT regarding the priesthood. Protestants believe (at least in theory) that the priesthood was abolished. Lord Jesus replaced the High Priest of the physical temple and is now high priest to the living temple, the body of Christ. The priesthood ended with the destruction of the temple. I Peter 2:9 confirms that all Christians are called to be priests.

The nation of Israel should have been the Kingdom of priests. (Exodus 19:6) The covenant of law, including the priesthood, was a consequence of Israel's rebellion against God. Lord Jesus is the mediator between God and man, not another man or woman.
 
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Aussie Pete

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It is impossible to obey the Sprit of the law without obeying the letter. You might want to consider studying up on the New Covenant. Many SDA posters have tried to talk to you about it and it's something might want to prayerfully consider.
What rubbish. There are 613 commandments. Some cannot be kept because there is no temple. Others apply only to women, some only to men. If your household caught COVID, would you dismantle the home and truck it to a deserted place and burn it? That's the law, my friend. I don't how SDA can ignore the letter to the Galatians, but they do. And then they add to the word by claiming that all should be vegetarian.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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What rubbish. There are 613 commandments. Some cannot be kept because there is no temple. Others apply only to women, some only to men. If your household caught COVID, would you dismantle the home and truck it to a deserted place and burn it? That's the law, my friend. I don't how SDA can ignore the letter to the Galatians, but they do. And then they add to the word by claiming that all should be vegetarian.
God personally wrote the Ten Commandments and it is impossible to keep the Spirit of the Commandments by breaking the letter. You are confusing the law of Moses with God’s Ten Commandments and the New Covenant.

Please quote where SDA’s require you to be a vegetarian? There is no such thing. Many SDA’s choose to be vegetarians because that was the Garden of Eden diet before sin entered. There are still a lot of SDA’s who eat clean meats. God determined the heath guidelines which animals are considered clean and unclean. I certainly would not want to eat something God deems an abomination but we do have free will. The SDA’s are not lacking in their health by following the guidelines God set forth in scriptures. In an independent study it turns out a group in the US who are Seventh day Adventists lives 10 years longer than the average person due to following the health guidelines and spiritual devotion. Why Loma Linda residents live longer than the rest of us: They treat the body like a temple
 
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Leaf473

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It is impossible to obey the Sprit of the law without obeying the letter. You might want to consider studying up on the New Covenant. Many SDA posters have tried to talk to you about it and it's something might want to prayerfully consider.

I think issues arise when we try to keep the letter of the law. I'm thinking of a situation like this,
In the context of the post it is referring to not stealing which includes wages and is not talking about businesses, it is referring to personal servants- robbing them of wages, paying them after they completed the work, which is a good rule.
Why would we think it is not talking about businesses?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I think issues arise when we try to keep the letter of the law. I'm thinking of a situation like this,

Why would we think it is not talking about businesses?
The context of the scripture.

Why don’t we start with God’s Ten Commandments that are written in our hearts in the New Covenant and tell me how we can break the letter of these laws and still keep the Spirit. You keep trying to compare the law of Moses as being the same as the moral law of God. You admit many of the laws of Moses are absurd and many of the law of Moses was meant for the Israelites in the time of the wilderness. We are in the New Covenant- God’s moral laws still stand and they are on a different foundation than the law of Moses and serve different purposes. God’s Ten Commandments are not grievous 1 John 5:3 so please tell me how you can keep the Spirit of the Ten Commandments by breaking the letter? Jesus came to magnify the law starting with our hearts and gave a couple examples of this Matthew 5:21-30 Where thoughts of sinning- breaking the commandments of God 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 starts from our thoughts. This is what the New Covenant is about changing us from the inside out.
 
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