Jesus Changed Everything for Women

bekkilyn

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??????????

Somehow I'm not surprised.

One more time. . .The 12 appointed by Jesus, who were the foundation of the church (Revelation 21:9-14), does not include any other apostles, prophets, teachers, etc.

That's not my doing, that is Jesus' doing.

I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

Then you will have to explain the contradiction with Ephesians 2:19-22 that does include prophets and the like.

Maybe rather than so much focus on how you can mangle scripture to support your anti-woman views, you might look into why the number twelve is emphasized in these verses and in so many other areas of scripture and what that means for SALVATION, which once again is the purpose of scripture.
 
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bekkilyn

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Perspective? Are you talking about changing the meaning of what was proscribed?

If not, what does "perspective" have to do with it?

Actually, the point of Scripture is the revelation of God and his truth.
The gospel is just a part of that.

For the purpose of........????

Hint: SALVATION

The gospel, or good news, of Jesus Christ is the entirety of it from the alpha to the omega.
 
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Clare73

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Somehow I'm not surprised.
Perhaps you would be kind enough to make sense of it for me. . .
Then you will have to explain the contradiction with Ephesians 2:19-22 that does include prophets and the like.
You handle the Scriptures quite loosely.
Ephesians 2:19-22 states "apostles and prophets" only, there is no "and the like."

Revelation 21:9-14 reveals what is meant by "apostles" in Ephesians 2:19-22.; i.e., those appointed by Jesus along with the one the apostles appointed to replace Judas.
Maybe rather than so much focus on how you can mangle scripture to support your anti-woman views, you might look into why the number twelve is emphasized in these verses and in so many other areas of scripture and what that means for SALVATION, which once again is the purpose of scripture.
Relevance to the point under discussion?

Try to stay focused.
 
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Clare73

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For the purpose of........????

Hint: SALVATION

The gospel, or good news, of Jesus Christ is the entirety of it from the alpha to the omega.
The whole purpose of the gospel is salvation.

But the gospel is not the whole purpose of Scripture.

Knowledge of God would be closer to the whole purpose of Scripture.
 
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bekkilyn

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You handle the Scriptures quite loosely.
Ephesians 2:19-22 states "apostle

I even quoted this verse earlier and you still missed it. Why don't I just quote it again and I'll not only bold the three words once again, but I'll even enlarge the AND and the PROPHETS.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (KJV)

Now in your strange philosophy, the foundation is ONLY the twelve (Jewish) men who Jesus called as The Twelve apostles that is the foundation of "the church" and yet right here in Ephesians it states the foundation is apostles AND prophets, and it doesn't even have the number "twelve" anywhere in the verse so isn't necessarily limited solely to twelve (Jewish) men.

Now if your claim was that only twelve Jewish men could be pastors according to your version of scripture, you might have some foundation (hehe) for argument, but you are strangely only excluding women from being pastors and ignoring once again that not one single member of The Twelve was a Gentile or Chinese. Now if only women are to be excluded from the work of God's Kingdom, then it seems odd that Jesus wouldn't have chosen at least one Gentile as part of the Twelve or even a Chinese person so that he wouldn't so strictly limit pastors as coming solely from areas around Israel.

And even then, if they aren't actually the exact Twelve, we might still have a problem because they're kind of dead. :)
 
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bekkilyn

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The whole purpose of the gospel is salvation.

But the gospel is not the whole purpose of Scripture.

Knowledge of God would be closer to the whole purpose of Scripture.

The devil has a lot more knowledge of God than we do and without any scripture whatsoever.
 
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3 Resurrections

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Are you unfamiliar with "pastor" (shepherd) in church congregations?

I'm talking about scripture usage, not how we use the term today. Pastor is not really used as a title in scripture as we commonly do today. And shepherds over flocks were both male and female in scripture, as several have noted here.

The concept of the church body being a family is a familiar theme in the NT. "My little children" is the affectionate term John used several times. The two women house-church leaders in 2 John also had assembly members called "children". Paul claimed to have labored among the church as a "Father" unto them (I Cor. 4:15). Didn't Paul mention in Ephesians 3:15 that "the whole family in heaven and earth is named" after the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Doesn't Hebrews 2:11 say that Jesus "is not ashamed to call us brethren"? Didn't Paul in 1 Thess. 2:7-9 compare his treatment of the Thessalonians to that of a nursing mother? Weren't immature believers compared to babes in need of milk?

These are all family terms used for the congregation of believers, whether in a universal sense or as local assemblies. The pattern for families is a father, mother, and hopefully the blessing of children to compose a complete unit. This is also true of church family assemblies to form a complete unit.
 
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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
You handle the Scriptures quite loosely.Ephesians 2:19-22 states "apostles and prophets" only, there is no "and the like."
Clare said:
You handle the Scriptures quite loosely.
Ephesians 2:19-22 states "apostle
Still handling quotes loosely.
Why did you chop off my quote, leaving off "there is no 'and the like' "?
I even quoted this verse earlier and you still missed it. Why don't I just quote it again and I'll not only bold the three words once again, but I'll even enlarge the AND and the PROPHETS.
Why do you ignore my point regarding your handling Scriptures loosely in your adding words to them, instead diverting to the words "and the prophets" to change the point?
Hoping no one would notice your dodge?
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (KJV)

Now in your strange philosophy, the foundation is ONLY the twelve (Jewish) men who Jesus called as The Twelve apostles that is the foundation of "the church" and yet right here in Ephesians it states the foundation is apostles AND prophets, and
it doesn't even have the number "twelve" anywhere in the verse so isn't necessarily limited solely to twelve (Jewish) men.
Revelation 21:14 - "The wall of the city (New Jerusalem, bride of Christ, the church) had 12 foundations, and on the were the names of the 12 apostles."
]Now if your claim was that only twelve Jewish men could be pastors according to your version of scripture, you might have some foundation (hehe) for argument, but you are strangely only excluding women from being pastors
Your politics are governing your understanding of Scripture.
That really leaves us with no basis for discussion.
 
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Clare73

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The devil has a lot more knowledge of God than we do and without any scripture whatsoever.
Ya' think?

He was only first in his class in the best theological school in the Universe.
 
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hedrick

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The signs were never limited to the apostles. Paul clearly indicates that signs and wonders were common among, for instance, the Galatians and the Corinthians. Signs and wonders do not indicate apostleship.

Both Mark and Matthew are explicit in asserting that Jesus called "the Eleven" away from the rest of His disciples as the specific persons to whom He delivered the great commission.



I explicitly said that women were among His disciples. And I pointed out that in itself was a big deal because rabbis of the day did not have female disciples.
In Luke’s version, it is the eleven and their companions. Luke 24:33.
 
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Clare73

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I'm talking about scripture usage, not how we use the term today. Pastor is not really used as a title in scripture as we commonly do today. And shepherds over flocks were both male and female in scripture, as several have noted here.

The concept of the church body being a family is a familiar theme in the NT. "My little children" is the affectionate term John used several times. The two women house-church leaders in 3 John also had assembly members called "children". Paul claimed to have labored among the church as a "Father" unto them (I Cor. 4:15). Didn't Paul mention in Ephesians 3:15 that "the whole family in heaven and earth is named" after the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Doesn't Hebrews 2:11 say that Jesus "is not ashamed to call us brethren"? Didn't Paul in 1 Thess. 2:7-9 compare his treatment of the Thessalonians to that of a nursing mother? Weren't immature believers compared to babes in need of milk?

These are all family terms used for the congregation of believers, whether in a universal sense or as local assemblies.
The pattern for families is a father, mother, and hopefully the blessing of children to compose a complete unit. This is also true of church family assemblies to form a complete unit.
I don't find that presented anywhere in the NT.

I see you have personally constructed it from NT concepts, but that does not make it actual authoritative NT teaching. One could construct no physical death from NT concepts strung together, but that does not make it actual authoritative NT teaching.
 
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Paidiske

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Can I just remind everyone that this thread is in the Egalitarian forum? Whatever your views on who was or wasn't an apostle, or what being an apostle might have meant, the SOP for this forum does state: "that women are called to share in the work of the church alongside their brothers may not be debated. Ordained women and their ministries are to be respected in this forum."

Folks who don't share egalitarian views really aren't supposed to be debating in this forum.
 
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bekkilyn

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Still handling quotes loosely.
Why did you chop off my quote, leaving off "there is no 'and the like' "?

Revelation 21:14 - "The wall of the city (New Jerusalem, bride of Christ, the church) had 12 foundations, and on the were the names of the 12 apostles."
Your politics are governing your understanding of Scripture, which leaves us with no basis for discussion.

It's strange how you keep somehow changing Ephesians 2:19-22 into Revelation 21:14. I've even quoted Ephesians 2:19-22 for you twice now and even kindly bolded the exact words that were relevant in order to make things clearer, but apparently to no avail.

There of course can be no foundation (hehe) for discussion if you are just going to magically transform every verse into Revelation 21:14, and just underlining the number 12 in that verse isn't the same thing as UNDERSTANDING why the number 12 is so relevant, in that verse and in all the other places in scripture where the number 12 appears.

And the fact that none of it has anything whatsoever to do with pastors makes it all the more mysterious.

Or maybe you're flashing 21:14 at me like a military time version of a synchronicity, like that whole 11:11 thing, as if that has anything to do with pastors either. :)

And you know, if the church is a bride, then wouldn't the entire church need to be women? I mean if apostles can only be Jewish men, then the church can only be women for the exact same "reasoning".

Interesting.
 
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Clare73

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And you know, if the church is a bride, then wouldn't the entire church need to be women? I mean if apostles can only be Jewish men, then the church can only be women for the exact same "reasoning".

Interesting.
Confirming my decision. . .
 
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bekkilyn

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Can I just remind everyone that this thread is in the Egalitarian forum? Whatever your views on who was or wasn't an apostle, or what being an apostle might have meant, the SOP for this forum does state: "that women are called to share in the work of the church alongside their brothers may not be debated. Ordained women and their ministries are to be respected in this forum."

Folks who don't share egalitarian views really aren't supposed to be debating in this forum.

Oops, even I didn't notice the forum this time around. Let me just go and collect all those goal posts that Clare73 scattered around and get them all back in storage. :)
 
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bekkilyn

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I think it might be helpful to separate out what Jesus did in order to fulfill the requirements of being the Messiah and not use those requirements as a basis for exclusion in other areas of life, whether secular or sacred. Going back to the Twelve apostles as an example, Jesus needed to have a certain number of male Jewish followers in order to qualify himself as a Rabbi (and twelve fit that requirement as well as having connections to twelve tribes of Israel, etc.), but it doesn't automatically presume that Jesus was *limited* to having that requirement for *every* apostle, disciple, etc. Jesus also did not limit any of these things by the sex of the individual, as the story of Mary and Martha clearly shows, and clearly shows Mary sitting at the place of a disciple at Jesus's feet and Jesus chiding Martha who believed that it wasn't Mary's place to be there.

Jesus chose a woman and a Samaritan to proclaim the gospel and chose women to proclaim his Resurrection to others, including the Twelve (minus Judas) and it was a woman and a Gentile who understood who Jesus was in a much greater and wiser way than the Twelve when she responded to Jesus' test when he stated how it wasn't fair to give what belonged to the children to the dogs, and it was one of (if not the only) recorded time that Jesus conceded to someone else's argument.

And it goes on.

Jesus the Christ did indeed change everything for women but once again it didn't take long for sinful human beings to corrupt his teachings.

And Paul's teachings, which are very egalitarian when in proper context, have also been corrupted to suit an institutionalized religion based on exclusion and dominance rather than the freedom in Christ Jesus.

It isn't Jesus who acts to cripple half of those who would labor for his Kingdom. Quite the contrary.
 
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Clare73

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I think it might be helpful to separate out what Jesus did in order to fulfill the requirements of being the Messiah and not use those requirements as a basis for exclusion in other areas of life, whether secular or sacred. Going back to the Twelve apostles as an example, Jesus needed to have a certain number of male Jewish followers in order to qualify himself as a Rabbi (and twelve fit that requirement as well as having connections to twelve tribes of Israel, etc.), but it doesn't automatically presume that Jesus was *limited* to having that requirement for *every* apostle, disciple, etc. Jesus also did not limit any of these things by the sex of the individual, as the story of Mary and Martha clearly shows, and clearly shows Mary sitting at the place of a disciple at Jesus's feet and Jesus chiding Martha who believed that it wasn't Mary's place to be there.

Jesus chose a woman and a Samaritan to proclaim the gospel and chose women to proclaim his Resurrection to others, including the Twelve (minus Judas) and it was a woman and a Gentile who understood who Jesus was in a much greater and wiser way than the Twelve when she responded to Jesus' test when he stated how it wasn't fair to give what belonged to the children to the dogs, and it was one of (if not the only) recorded time that Jesus conceded to someone else's argument.

And it goes on.

Jesus the Christ did indeed change everything for women but once again it didn't take long for sinful human beings to corrupt his teachings.

And Paul's teachings, which are very egalitarian when in proper context, have also been corrupted to suit an institutionalized religion based on exclusion and dominance rather than the freedom in Christ Jesus.

It isn't Jesus who acts to cripple half of those who would labor for his Kingdom. Quite the contrary.
Previously addressed, post #89.
 
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Gregorikos

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I think it might be helpful to separate out what Jesus did in order to fulfill the requirements of being the Messiah and not use those requirements as a basis for exclusion in other areas of life, whether secular or sacred. Going back to the Twelve apostles as an example, Jesus needed to have a certain number of male Jewish followers in order to qualify himself as a Rabbi (and twelve fit that requirement as well as having connections to twelve tribes of Israel, etc.), but it doesn't automatically presume that Jesus was *limited* to having that requirement for *every* apostle, disciple, etc. Jesus also did not limit any of these things by the sex of the individual, as the story of Mary and Martha clearly shows, and clearly shows Mary sitting at the place of a disciple at Jesus's feet and Jesus chiding Martha who believed that it wasn't Mary's place to be there.

Jesus chose a woman and a Samaritan to proclaim the gospel and chose women to proclaim his Resurrection to others, including the Twelve (minus Judas) and it was a woman and a Gentile who understood who Jesus was in a much greater and wiser way than the Twelve when she responded to Jesus' test when he stated how it wasn't fair to give what belonged to the children to the dogs, and it was one of (if not the only) recorded time that Jesus conceded to someone else's argument.

And it goes on.

Jesus the Christ did indeed change everything for women but once again it didn't take long for sinful human beings to corrupt his teachings.

And Paul's teachings, which are very egalitarian when in proper context, have also been corrupted to suit an institutionalized religion based on exclusion and dominance rather than the freedom in Christ Jesus.

It isn't Jesus who acts to cripple half of those who would labor for his Kingdom. Quite the contrary.

Excellent summary. I'm going to save that to share with others.

Also I'd like to point out that, along with the twelve male disciples, Jesus must have had a minimum of seven women in his entourage:

(Jesus is in Galilee according to Luke 7:1)

Soon afterwards he went on through cities and villages, proclaiming and bringing the good news of the kingdom of God. The twelve were with him, as well as some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna, the wife of Herod’s steward Chuza, and Susanna, and many others, who provided for them out of their resources. Luke 8:1-3 (NRSV)

But all his acquaintances, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things. Luke 23:49 (NRSV)

The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Luke 23:55 (NRSV)

Many women were also there, looking on from a distance; they had followed Jesus from Galilee and had provided for him. Among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. Matthew 27:55-56 (NRSV)

There were also women looking on from a distance; among them were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome. These used to follow him and provided for him when he was in Galilee; and there were many other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem. Mark 15:40-41 (NRSV)
 
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