Jesus Changed Everything for Women

[Gregorikos]

Matthias was the only one given the authority of the office of aposteship as the other 11 had.

Only the 12 are the foundation of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:9-14), the church (Ephesians 2:20).

The other apostles did not and were not.

It's not complicated.

You think James the Lord's brother didn't have authority of the office of apostleship as the other 11 had?

See Acts 15:13, 19-23. 21:18. See also the book after Hebrews.

 

[Clare73]

You think James the Lord's brother didn't have authority of the office of apostleship as the other 11 had?

See Acts 15:13, 19-23. 21:18. See also the book after Hebrews.

I see James offering his suggestion/advice, and the apostles and elders making the decision.

As the half-brother of Jesus, James enjoyed a unique position of auhority in the church, as did the apostle Paul, but James was not an apostle appointed by Jesus, and neither James nor Paul are the foundation of the church.

Jesus appointed no women as foundation of the church.

And Paul forbid women as pastor (shepherd)/teachers (1 Timothy 2:12), based on God's creation order (1 Timothy 2:13; 1 Corinthians 11:8-9).

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[Gregorikos]

I see James offering his suggestion/advice, and the apostles and elders making the decision.

As the half-brother of Jesus, James enyoyed a unique position of auhority in the church, as did the apostle Paul, but James was not an apostle, and neither James nor Paul are the foundatin of the church.

Jesus appointed no women as foundation of the church.

James WAS an apostle. (Galatians 1:19) Another one that doesn't fit your alleged rule. And he was the acknowledged leader of the church in Jerusalem.

After the risen Jesus had appeared to him (1 Cor. 15:7), he became a leader of the Jewish-Christian church at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:19; 2:9; Acts 12:17). Tradition stated that he was appointed first bishop of Jerusalem by the Lord himself (Eusebius, EH 7. 19). He presided at the first Council of Jerusalem, which considered the terms of admission of Gentiles into the church, formulated the decree which was promulgated to the churches of Antioch, Syria and Cilicia (Acts 15:19–23), and remained as sole leader of the Jerusalem church, working to maintain its unity with Paul and his mission when Paul visited Jerusalem for the last time (Acts 21:18ff.). (New Bible Dictionary)

James occupied a prominent position among the apostles, and was surnamed "the Just." James and Peter seem to have been in authority on equal terms when Paul was admitted to the fellowship of the apostles on the word of Barnabas (Acts 9:27; Gal. 1:18), and after that time he acts as the president of the council in Jerusalem (Acts 12:17; 15:13), whose decrees he delivered formally, a position recognized and recorded by Paul (Gal. 2:9), and honored by a formal visit of ceremony in the presence of all the presbyters (Acts 21:18). (Smith's Bible Dictionary)

 

[Clare73]

James WAS an apostle. (Galatians 1:19) Another one that doesn't fit your alleged rule.

Are you sure about that?

The apostle James was not the half-brother of Jesus.

You're just a wealth of misinformation.

And he was the acknowledged leader of the church in Jerusalem.

After the risen Jesus had appeared to him (1 Cor. 15:7), he became a leader of the Jewish-Christian church at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:19; 2:9; Acts 12:17). Tradition stated that he was appointed first bishop of Jerusalem by the Lord himself (Eusebius, EH 7. 19). He presided at the first Council of Jerusalem, which considered the terms of admission of Gentiles into the church, formulated the decree which was promulgated to the churches of Antioch, Syria and Cilicia (Acts 15:19–23), and remained as sole leader of the Jerusalem church, working to maintain its unity with Paul and his mission when Paul visited Jerusalem for the last time (Acts 21:18ff.). (New Bible Dictionary)

James occupied a prominent position among the apostles, and was surnamed "the Just." James and Peter seem to have been in authority on equal terms when Paul was admitted to the fellowship of the apostles on the word of Barnabas (Acts 9:27; Gal. 1:18), and after that time he acts as the president of the council in Jerusalem (Acts 12:17; 15:13), whose decrees he delivered formally, a position recognized and recorded by Paul (Gal. 2:9), and honored by a formal visit of ceremony in the presence of all the presbyters (Acts 21:18). (Smith's Bible Dictionary)

 

[3 Resurrections]

And Paul forbid women as pastor (shepherd)/teachers, based on the creation order.

Not exactly. To "pastor" is an act - not an office. Paul forbad the abusive "authentein" type of teaching by the women in the Ephesian church, by reminding them that women were created after men IN ORDER TO HELP THEM where they needed it - not to be abusively domineering over them. That text can hardly be justifiably expanded to an all-time-and-forever-never-teaching-at-all restriction for women. Paul was just fine with the women who were "fellow-laborers" with him in the gospel. So fine, that he told the believers to submit to such like this.

We can't dismiss the woman church leader in 2 John who was responsible for both the reception or the rejection of those who came to that assembly to join it. Or her "elect sister" with the "children" of her assembly.

 

[Clare73]

Not exactly. To "pastor" is an act - not an office.

Agreed. . .did I say otherwise?

Regarding what I did say. . .time to consult the old dictionary.
Pastor (shepherd) is both an act and an office.

Paul forbad the abusive "authentein" type of teaching by the women in the Ephesian church

Paul forbid women to be pastor(shepherd)/teachers (1 Timothy 2:12), based on God's creation order (1 Timothy 2:13; 1 Corinthians 11:8-9).

 

[bekkilyn]

Poor ole' Clare has maintained the same thing from the beginning:

Matthias was the only one given the authority of the office of aposteship as the other 11 had.

Only the 12 are the foundation of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:9-14), the church (Ephesians 2:20).

The other apostles did not and were not.

It's not complicated.
Don't blame it on poor ole Clare.

Neither Jesus nor the apostles appointed a woman to be the foundation of the church.

Well duh. That's because Jesus himself is the foundation.

You've spent how many pages now going on and on about the traditions of *men* that have been concocted by men for men beyond the bounds of scripture and then end on *this* heresy?

Interesting.

Man, those goalposts of yours are running around blindingly fast and yet can't seem to find the finish line.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Agreed. . .did I say otherwise?.

I'm just reading the way you used the word "pastor", as a noun and not a verb.

The translated word "OFFICE" should be expunged from the translations for the fabrication that it is. The word "office" carries the sense of far too much authoritarian baggage. The Greek word is "MINISTRY" - not "office". Because the common perception is that a minister of the gospel is the one who rules the congregation, the very idea of a woman taking this powerful authority over men is rightly to be abhorred.

But God also abhors the idea of MEN doing this rule over the assembly as well. God hates "Lords over God's heritage". If we truly were following the manner in which Christ intended his church to operate, there should be no threat whatever in a woman/man pair who are ministering to an assembly. "As being examples to the flock", and not its rulers.

If a church was meant to be representative of a family, then what we typically have in churches today is comparable to an overburdened single-parent household, or even a same-sex marriage, if two men are leading the assembly. This has no balance, and the family suffers as a result. Female as well as male input is desperately needed in leadership, so that balance can prevail, and that the giftedness of both can benefit the other as as they minister to the flock.

Of course, single parents of both genders do parent families by necessity many times, but there are some serious disadvantages to this. The ideal for family prosperity is "two are better than one", and that pairing should represent BOTH genders - in a family as in a church.

 

[bekkilyn]

I see James offering his suggestion/advice, and the apostles and elders making the decision.

As the half-brother of Jesus, James enyoyed a unique position of auhority in the church, as did the apostle Paul, but James was not an apostle, and neither James nor Paul are the foundatin of the church.

Jesus appointed no women as foundation of the church.

And Paul forbid women as pastor (shepherd)/teachers, based on the creation order.

Did Paul's supposed commandments usurp the authority of Christ in your imagined theology? So not only are you getting Paul all wrong in a tasty, cherry-picking sort of way that clearly ignores the gospel and contradicts Paul practically everywhere else, but you are elevating him above God.

Interesting, but not unexpected.

 

[bekkilyn]

Agreed. . .did I say otherwise?

Regarding what I did say. . .time to consult the old dictionary.
Pastor (shepherd) is both an act and an office.

Paul forbid women to be pastor(shepherd)/teachers (1 Timothy 2:12), based on God's creation order (1 Timothy 2:13; 1 Corinthians 11:8-9).

Yes, we're all familiar with these two passages that you and your ilk seem to enjoy cherry-picking out of context (especially the versions of them in the KJV) but does your version of the bible also include all the other verses that puts those verses in proper perspective as pertains to the gospel?

You did remember that the point of scripture is the gospel right?

 

[Clare73]

Well duh. That's because Jesus himself is the foundation.
You've spent how many pages now going on and on about the traditions of *men* that have been concocted by men for men beyond the bounds of scripture and then end on *this* heresy?
Interesting.
Man, those goalposts of yours are running around blindingly fast and yet can't seem to find the finish line.

Actually, I don't understand your point, or what is "beyond Scripture."

Is it anything like your not knowing that Jesus is the cornerstone, while the 12 apostles are the foundation of the church?

 

[bekkilyn]

Actually, I don't understand your point, or what is "beyond Scripture."

Is it anything like your not knowing that Jesus is the cornerstone, while the 12 apostles are the foundation of the church?

Oh you mean Ephesians 2:19-22 to which you've mangled to include only 12 apostles as if there are no other apostles or laborers in God's Kingdom?

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (KJV)​

You have taken a holy and spiritual thing and corrupted it to something different than its intended purpose. The words Paul used here were a reference to Psalm 118:22 and had nothing to do with religious institutions or human-made and typically corrupted "church" hierarchy.

But also consider 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 which states (emphasis mine):

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (KJV)​

The gospel is good news for ALL and not good news for (twelve) Jewish men only and bad news for everyone else.

Because according to the bad theology that you are proclaiming here, any pastor who is not Jewish is also forbidden since of course none of "the Twelve" were non-Jews. Are Chinese people also excluded? None of "the Twelve" were Chinese.

I wonder who else we can exclude from doing the work of God's Kingdom, you know, since it's written in scripture that the laborers of the Kingdom are so plentiful that they must fight to the death among themselves to have the privilege of doing God's work in the world.

Yep, the irony.

 

[Clare73]

I'm just reading the way you used the word "pastor", as a noun and not a verb.

Are you unfamiliar with "pastor" (shepherd) in church congregations?
It's as common as "usher."

The translated word "OFFICE" should be expunged from the translations for the fabrication that it is.

The word "office" carries the sense of far too much authoritarian baggage.

I've not seen the word "office" in the NIV. The word "office" is not in the Greek.
It must be the KJV.
However, the meaning of "office" is what the apostles had; i.e., assigned service, duty, function; position.

The Greek word is "MINISTRY" - not "office".

Actually, the Greek word is PASTOR (poimen); i.e., "shepherd" (Ephesians 4:11), or "ELDER" (one who oversees the flock)--(1 Peter 5:1-2; Acts 20:17 with Acts 20:28)

If a church was meant to be representative of a family,

Where do we find that Biblical model? The only one I am aware of is
the body of Christ, with different members serving different functions, as in a human body (1 Corinthians 12:14-31); or
the bride of Christ--the mystery of the two-in-one-enfleshment of Christ and the church (Ephesians 5:30-32).

Who are we to "improve" upon the Biblical models?
Why all this shuffling around of Scripture to replace the Biblical office of "pastor" (shepherd) with ministry/deaconate (service) or minister/deacon (servant)?
The Biblical order is not subject to our restructuring.

pastor = poimen = shepherd (overseer)

elder = episkopo = bishop (overseer)

minister = diakonos = deacon (servant)

 

[bekkilyn]

Both Rachel and Zipporah (and all of her six sisters) were shepherds. Many women were shepherds in ancient culture and are shepherds even today, although today fewer people are shepherds in general. But only in the bad and spiritually abusive theology designed by men for the power of men are women excluded from an activity that they have been doing since people first began to shepherd, whether it be of other people or of animals.

So much corruption in religion when scripture is used to oppress people rather than for the purpose of salvation.

 

[Gregorikos]

Are you sure about that?

The apostle James was not the half-brother of Jesus.

You're just a wealth of misinformation.

Look it up.

Galatians 1:19 (NRSV) but I did not see any other apostle except James the Lord’s brother.

 

[Clare73]

Oh you mean Ephesians 2:19-22 to which you've mangled to include only 12 apostles as if there are no other apostles or laborers in God's Kingdom?

Things are somewhat shuffled here. . .

Revelation 21:9-14 is a mangling?

"Interesting" viewpoint.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. (KJV)​

You have taken a holy and spiritual thing and corrupted it to something different than its intended purpose. The words Paul used here were a reference to Psalm 118:22 and had nothing to do with religious institutions or human-made and typically corrupted "church" hierarchy.

Uh. . .try Revelation 21:9-14 for this "corruption."

But also consider 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 which states (emphasis mine):

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (KJV)​

That refers to the foundation of an individual's faith/salvation (3:6); i. e. Christ crucified (2:2), not the foundation of the whole church.
Paul did not single-handedly lay the foundation of the whole church.

The gospel is good news for ALL and not good news for (twelve) Jewish men only and bad news for everyone else.

Because according to the bad theology that you are proclaiming here, any pastor who is not Jewish is also forbidden since of course none of "the Twelve" were non-Jews. Are Chinese people also excluded? None of "the Twelve" were Chinese.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I wonder who else we can exclude from doing the work of God's Kingdom, you know, since it's written in scripture that the laborers of the Kingdom are so plentiful that they must fight to the death among themselves to have the privilege of doing God's work in the world.

Yep, the irony.

?????????

 

[Clare73]

Both Rachel and Zipporah (and all of her six sisters) were shepherds. Many women were shepherds in ancient culture and are shepherds even today, although today fewer people are shepherds in general. But only in the bad and spiritually abusive theology designed by men for the power of men are women excluded from an activity that they have been doing since people first began to shepherd, whether it be of other people or of animals.
So much corruption in religion when scripture is used to oppress people rather than for the purpose of salvation.

??????????

 

[Clare73]

Look it up.

Galatians 1:19 (NRSV) but I did not see any other apostle except James the Lord’s brother.

One more time. . .The 12 appointed by Jesus, who were the foundation of the church (Revelation 21:9-14), does not include any other apostles, prophets, teachers, etc.

That's not my doing, that is Jesus' doing.

I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, we're all familiar with these two passages that you and your ilk seem to enjoy cherry-picking out of context (especially the versions of them in the KJV) but does your version of the bible also include
all the other verses that puts those verses in proper perspective as pertains to the gospel?

Perspective? Are you talking about changing the meaning of what was proscribed?

If not, what does "perspective" have to do with it?

You did remember that the point of scripture is the gospel right?

Actually, the point of Scripture is the revelation of God and his truth.
The gospel is just a part of that.