Jeanine Sautron.

[JohnMarsten]

No I'm not trying to scare you. It's just a thought question. If Jesus gave EGW a message for the people, and you discard and discourage others from accepting that message, where does that put you?



Hey, it could only be coincidence that mostly every person I know who left the church, left because of some issue with EGW. Suddenly NOTHING that they believed was correct, and strangely enough, their beliefs began to fall in line with mainstream protestantism.

It's not about receiving some "extra" punishment. It's about being safe from deception.

Well, its not that simple...

first of all I never claimed that God doesnt use SDA for good things, He does (thats what I believe), people get to know about Christ and maybe SDAism is the one that appeals mostly to them,

but then, I think, there are people for whom SDA is an unnecessary burden. they dont feel good with it...

just btw cause nobody answered yet, is the SDA involved in killing innocent children via abortion? cause if they are...

 

[Stryder06]

Well, its not that simple...

first of all I never claimed that God doesnt use SDA for good things, He does (thats what I believe), people get to know about Christ and maybe SDAism is the one that appeals mostly to them,

but then, I think, there are people for whom SDA is an unnecessary burden. they dont feel good with it...

Who said anything about "SDA"? I asked a specific question about Sr White. Not everyone within the SDA church accepts Sr White, or agrees with every doctrine, thus the question still stands. If Christ did indeed use Sr White as a messenger for these final days, and you are casting down her message, and discouraging others fro accepting it, what recourse have you?

just btw cause nobody answered yet, is the SDA involved in killing innocent children via abortion? cause if they are...

The SDA church has hospitals. Hospitals do abortions. The SDA church hospitals aren't entities unto themselves. To my knowledge they function like every other hospital there is. So what's your point?

 

[JohnMarsten]

Who said anything about "SDA"? I asked a specific question about Sr White. Not everyone within the SDA church accepts Sr White, or agrees with every doctrine, thus the question still stands. If Christ did indeed use Sr White as a messenger for these final days, and you are casting down her message, and discouraging others fro accepting it, what recourse have you?



The SDA church has hospitals. Hospitals do abortions. The SDA church hospitals aren't entities unto themselves. To my knowledge they function like every other hospital there is. So what's your point?

thats making friends with the world, IMHO...

they are partaking in the murder, otherwise known as murderers...

so I guess the doctors who perform the abortions are just doing what they are paid for, right? they are getting paid for the slaughter of innocent babies? right? is that what it is? you cannot seriously believe that hospitals have to do this...

this would be certainly one thing the SDA could stand up for (if they had xxxxx, dont know if I should use that 5letter word)

if they were against abortions, rejecting its performance, do you think they would be regarded as foolish, old fashioned, hick-christians? and that might hurt the cause?

I think I wanna be regarded a fool for Christ rather than a murderer in the sight of the Lord...

no really this thing really got me, it cut me deep! I would have never imagined that a church that is trying so hard to keep the fourth commandment, would so easily break another, commiting murder on a mass level... woe to those who call evil good...

 

[Stryder06]

thats making friends with the world, IMHO...

they are partaking in the murder, otherwise known as murderers...

so I guess the doctors who perform the abortions are just doing what they are paid for, right? they are getting paid for the slaughter of innocent babies? right? is that what it is? you cannot seriously believe that hospitals have to do this...

if they were against abortions, rejecting its performance, do you think they would be regarded as foolish, old fashioned, hick-christians? and that might hurt the cause?

I like how you totally jumped topics and are running with this. Did I say I agreed with it? Being "Adventist" isn't a free pass to heaven, nor does it mean that you're doing everything right. Everyone will be held accountable individually for their actions before God.

I think I wanna be regarded a fool for Christ rather than a murderer in the sight of the Lord...

Are you committing the abortions? Do you condone them?

no really this thing really got me, it cut me deep! I would have never imagined that a church that is trying so hard to keep the fourth commandment, would so easily break another, commiting murder on a mass level... woe to those who call evil good...

There are plenty of people in the church who are doing the wrong thing. It is our task to pray for these individuals. How do you know that every doctor who performs these abortions is Adventist, or that those doing them aren't in some form of turmoil, only known to them and God? For someone who is quick to point out to me that things "Aren't that simple", I'd like to think you'd extend the same courtesy to individuals who may indeed be agonizing over this situation.

This isn't news to me. I remember hearing this and think "WT..." But what am I going to do? Will I leave the church because they are making bad decisions? Not at all. Will I pray for it as I know that the close we come to the end times, the harder it will be to remain rooted? Yes I will. I've opted to let God deal with His people how He see's fit, because He is our Righteous Judge.

 

[JohnMarsten]

I like how you totally jumped topics and are running with this. Did I say I agreed with it? Being "Adventist" isn't a free pass to heaven, nor does it mean that you're doing everything right. Everyone will be held accountable individually for their actions before God.



Are you committing the abortions? Do you condone them?



There are plenty of people in the church who are doing the wrong thing. It is our task to pray for these individuals. How do you know that every doctor who performs these abortions is Adventist, or that those doing them aren't in some form of turmoil, only known to them and God? For someone who is quick to point out to me that things "Aren't that simple", I'd like to think you'd extend the same courtesy to individuals who may indeed be agonizing over this situation.

This isn't news to me. I remember hearing this and think "WT..." But what am I going to do? Will I leave the church because they are making bad decisions? Not at all. Will I pray for it as I know that the close we come to the end times, the harder it will be to remain rooted? Yes I will. I've opted to let God deal with His people how He see's fit, because He is our Righteous Judge.

listen, I didnt say you were the one who is behind those murders!

my point is that there should be a general stance in this regard. and the position of the church is not against it! if you are not against it you are for it! understand my logic?

 

[Stryder06]

listen, I didnt say you were the one who is behind those murders!

my point is that there should be a general stance in this regard. and the position of the church is not against it! if you are not against it you are for it! understand my logic?

Oh, well when you put it that way, I totally agree with you.

 

[JohnMarsten]

Oh, well when you put it that way, I totally agree with you.

so when the church says alcohol is bad, we all know what their point is... so they wouldnt sell beer at some health work shops etc.

once they allow their hospitals to perform abortions, they cannot really say its a bad thing, so they call evil good...

btw are they force to perform abortions (like government regulations) or do they do it because of the profit. I dont think a government can force somebody to do murder...

 

[Stryder06]

so when the church says alcohol is bad, we all know what their point is... so they wouldnt sell beer at some health work shops etc.

once they allow their hospitals to perform abortions, they cannot really say its a bad thing, so they call evil good...

They can say it's a bad thing. Not everyone agrees that abortions ought to be done. The message of the church remains the same, even if some of it's members practice something different. Again, this is where prayer for the church comes in, in hopes that God will straighten these things out. Sadly enough, there are plenty of people within the SDA who hold the viewpoint that abortions are fine since the fetus isn't "human" until a certain stage in it's development.

btw are they force to perform abortions (like government regulations) or do they do it because of the profit. I dont think a government can force somebody to do murder...

Not sure. I heard my pastor speak about this and it sounded like it was a regulation they had to abide by, but I don't know if he was 100% sure about that himself.

 

[ricker]

Not sure. I heard my pastor speak about this and it sounded like it was a regulation they had to abide by, but I don't know if he was 100% sure about that himself.

Are the hated Catholics required to perform abortions in their hospitals? (Answer, NO!)

 

[ricker]

Stryder06;60110340Hey, it could only be coincidence that mostly every person I know who left the church, left because of some issue with EGW. Suddenly NOTHING that they believed was correct, and strangely enough, their beliefs began to fall in line with mainstream protestantism.

You still don't get it, do you? The Bible alone is what Protestantism is all about. Adventism is all about Mrs. White's interpretation of the Bible. Take away EGW and read the Bible only, and many of the distinctive doctrines of Adventism seem suspect.

 

[ricker]

Did she teach that you should leave the SDA church? I'm going off of what you said in the OP, because to date, I've not heard of the woman. If that was her message then she was wrong.

Don't you belive in continuing revelation, like when Mrs. White countered the conventional thinking of the time? Maybe there is a new prophet set to reveal the new path since the church (SDA) didn't follow through with what they were supposed to do (the conditional thing).

 

[JohnMarsten]

Are the hated Catholics required to perform abortions in their hospitals? (Answer, NO!)

Thats where I was heading here!!! ... kinda made my question a rethorical one... I was surprised by Stryders answer though... nice try...

anyway... I wasnt aware of that... even now I am still disgusted, and when I hear such an answers like 'the individuals of the church etc." oh yeah...

I am not saying we should kill abortionists, that would not be justice,FAR FROM THAT...

BUT we should do our utmost to stop them , if we have some sort of influence that is, and if one of those murderers is a church member then we do have some influence, we can pressure him...

but there is absolutely no point in it, if the church as an organization doesnt ban abortion from the menu of its hospitals...

 

[Stryder06]

Are the hated Catholics required to perform abortions in their hospitals? (Answer, NO!)

You know you say we hate the catholics more than we do. Are you trying to force yourself to believe that?

My supervisor is Catholic, and I surely don't hate him. Even went to a fish fry at a Catholic church.

And you're right, Catholics don't have to do abortions, they also get fired if they do. Remember one nun was fired and excommunicated, or de-nuned for opting to save the mother's life over the baby during a complicated delivery. But I guess that's ok right.

I'm not trying to justify giving abortions.

 

[Stryder06]

You still don't get it, do you? The Bible alone is what Protestantism is all about. Adventism is all about Mrs. White's interpretation of the Bible. Take away EGW and read the Bible only, and many of the distinctive doctrines of Adventism seem suspect.

It would seem as if you don't get it. Protenstantism was about getting away from the corrupt doctrine that the Catholic church was forcing on the people. Doctrines of men vs doctrines of God was the issue, and your only sure foundation was scripture, not priests. Most protestants today are actually going backwards. If you think other wise than can you please explain how all these hundreds of protestant denominations can read the same bible and come up with vastly different doctrines?

If you believe that is the Holy Spirit's doing, than you have bigger issues to deal with than Sr White.

That said, there is nothing "suspect" about our doctrines, and were it not possible to prove them 100% from the bible, than you'd be right. But since every doctrine can be proved 100% from the bible, than I find your argument to be invalid. I don't consider it suspect simply because the majority disagree.

Don't you belive in continuing revelation, like when Mrs. White countered the conventional thinking of the time? Maybe there is a new prophet set to reveal the new path since the church (SDA) didn't follow through with what they were supposed to do (the conditional thing).

Nope, sorry. One prophet would not discredit the words of the other or give a contradictory message.

 

[ricker]

You know you say we hate the catholics more than we do. Are you trying to force yourself to believe that?

My supervisor is Catholic, and I surely don't hate him. Even went to a fish fry at a Catholic church.

And you're right, Catholics don't have to do abortions, they also get fired if they do. Remember one nun was fired and excommunicated, or de-nuned for opting to save the mother's life over the baby during a complicated delivery. But I guess that's ok right.

I'm not trying to justify giving abortions.

Love the fish frys!

After saying you don't hate Catholics, you disparage their handling of an abortion situation.

I have heard so much anti-Catholic rhetoric on this forum I can't believe you are trying to minimalize it.

Quite a diversion really. Abortions are obviously not required of hospitals.

 

[ricker]

[=Stryder06;60118124]It would seem as if you don't get it. Protenstantism was about getting away from the corrupt doctrine that the Catholic church was forcing on the people. Doctrines of men vs doctrines of God was the issue, and your only sure foundation was scripture, not priests. Most protestants today are actually going backwards. If you think other wise than can you please explain how all these hundreds of protestant denominations can read the same bible and come up with vastly different doctrines?

And you are not one of the hundreds of denominations with vastly different doctrines? Give me a break.

If you believe that is the Holy Spirit's doing, than you have bigger issues to deal with than Sr White.

I don't feel I have to deal with Mrs. White.

That said, there is nothing "suspect" about our doctrines, and were it not possible to prove them 100% from the bible, than you'd be right. But since every doctrine can be proved 100% from the bible, than I find your argument to be invalid. I don't consider it suspect simply because the majority disagree.

Without believing Mrs. Whites slant of what the verses mean, the distintive doctrines don't look so Biblical. Notice how once a believer puts Mrs. White aside, they tend to see the Bible in a new, different way.

Nope, sorry. One prophet would not discredit the words of the other or give a contradictory message

Hopefully you aren't putting all your eggs in one basket with EGW. The Bible doesn't talk about one end time person prophesying.

 

[Stryder06]

Love the fish frys!

Bit to expensive for me, especially since my sandwich didn't have cheese, although it was pretty good.

After saying you don't hate Catholics, you disparage their handling of an abortion situation.

I was making a point. I think it's admirable that they don't allow abortions. I do believe however, that if the choose is between the baby or the mother, that you shouldn't be able to fire someone and damn them to hell for choosing to save the mother.

I have heard so much anti-Catholic rhetoric on this forum I can't believe you are trying to minimalize it.

I'm guessing you would have hated the reformers were you alive during their day. They didn't pull their punches when speaking about the catholic church.

Quite a diversion really. Abortions are obviously not required of hospitals.

This whole subject was a diversion to get away from answering the question I presented earlier, which mind you, was never answered by Mr Marsten

 

[Stryder06]

And you are not one of the hundreds of denominations with vastly different doctrines? Give me a break.

Adventism was never meant to be a denomination. It started as, and is going back to it's roots of being a movement.

I don't feel I have to deal with Mrs. White.

Perhaps. But that still doesn't speak to the issue of whether or not you believe God is behind this confusion, which we call "diversity".

Without believing Mrs. Whites slant of what the verses mean, the distintive doctrines don't look so Biblical. Notice how once a believer puts Mrs. White aside, they tend to see the Bible in a new, different way.

Actually, whenever a believer puts Sr white's words to the side, they begin to see the bible the same way the mainstream churches do. Sorry to say, but that's not a good thing.

Hopefully you aren't putting all your eggs in one basket with EGW. The Bible doesn't talk about one end time person prophesying.

But if she is an end time prophet and you're ignoring her, that could be trouble.

 

[ricker]

[=Stryder06;60126368]Adventism was never meant to be a denomination. It started as, and is going back to it's roots of being a movement.


Perhaps. But that still doesn't speak to the issue of whether or not you believe God is behind this confusion, which we call "diversity".

Do we really have to resort to semantics? I'm a Lutheran and I don't think the roots of Lutheranism could be described as anything but a movement.

Actually, whenever a believer puts Sr white's words to the side, they begin to see the bible the same way the mainstream churches do. Sorry to say, but that's not a good thing.

We both agree on this, except for your feeling towards mainstream churches.

But if she is an end time prophet and you're ignoring her, that could be trouble.

Yes, you are of course right.

The point I tried to make is where are the other prophets God said would come? There is nothing Biblical about one end time prophet sent in the last days, is there?

 

[ricker]

I'm guessing you would have hated the reformers were you alive during their day. They didn't pull their punches when speaking about the catholic church.

So was I wrong or not when I said "

Are the hated Catholics required to perform abortions in their hospitals? (Answer, NO!)

"


It was you that took exception to my phrase. Now you say it is OK not to pull punches? I'm confused.


.