Janie's Got A Gun

[TheDag]

That kind of reasoning isn't a whole lot different from allowing terrorists to have any weapons they want "because no matter what you do they will still be intent on killing" ... so let them buy Nuclear Weapons and see what happens. ... free market in weapons ... it all seems rather crazy to me.

oh stop that. who said you could use logic around here!!!

 

[Tahoenite]

I personally do not understand the need for owning a gun if its not needed for a specific purpose... (self defense not being one of them).

Even cops are moving more towards using tasers these days if they can...

I can understand shooting as a sport, at a shooting range... like you would archery... but i like gun laws... i would not like to know that anyone could have a gun... i would feel less safe... not more with them

Would you want a gun if you knew everyone else had one, even those that really should not?

I know in the US the tazer is used for hostile unarmed suspects, if the suspect has a weapon that can be considered "deadly" they still use the firearm.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Everybody else would not have one but for the laws that exist because folk keep saying that you need a gun to protect yourself from other people with guns.

 

[luchsgud]

Would you want a gun if you knew everyone else had one, even those that really should not?

No.

I have a friend who is in a wheelchair because of a gun.

I have a friend who is partialy paralysed [like he had a stroke] because of a gun.

I lost a friend whose body was smashed to smitherines [beyond recognition] because a gun shot down the DC10 she was returning home from holiday in.

I could go on...

I have absolutely no interest in owning a gun.

 

[Tahoenite]

No.

I have a friend who is in a wheelchair because of a gun.

I have a friend who is partialy paralysed [like he had a stroke] because of a gun.

I lost a friend whose body was smashed to smitherines [beyond recognition] because a gun shot down the DC10 she was returning home from holiday in.

I could go on...

I have absolutely no interest in owning a gun.

I am very sorry you and your friend's losses.

 

[tgg]

After reading the Bible, I have changed my outlook on gun ownership. I believe that the Australian laws need to be changed to allow civilians to use them - especially for the protection of women and kids.

Women need to have the right to shoot the likes or rapists and stalkers, as well as paedophiles. That is the only sure-fire (sorry for the pun!) way that vermin like that will never be able to offend again.

The "throw the guns away for the sake of our children" was incredibly naive and stupid. We need to teach children the world is not a lollipops, roses and fairies place, but one filled with danger and dark characters.

Jesus taught that there are times when we will need to 'trade our cloaks for a sword'.

Luke 22: 35 - 38 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.

So yes, Jesus was not 100% pacifist as some of these feel-good Christian types might want to think.

With that said, there is the commandment "Thou shalt not commit murder". Murder refers to the killing of an innocent being, or killing somebody for no good reason.

Killing a person with a gun out of self-defence, or protecting your friends and loved-ones in a life threatening situation ought to be decriminalised.

 

[tgg]

No.

I have a friend who is in a wheelchair because of a gun.

I have a friend who is partialy paralysed [like he had a stroke] because of a gun.

I lost a friend whose body was smashed to smitherines [beyond recognition] because a gun shot down the DC10 she was returning home from holiday in.

I could go on...

I have absolutely no interest in owning a gun.

I could turn around what you said to:

I have a friend who is in a wheelchair because of a knife

I have a friend who is partially paralysed because of a knife

I lost a friend whose body was smashed to smithereens because a boulder collapsed from a mountain that she was visiting whilst she was on holiday.

People get injured with knives, stones, rocks. Are you seriously saying that Christians should not have contact with ANYTHING that has the potential to be misused?

Look, I'm sorry to hear about your friend's misfortunes. But you can't blame it 'because of guns'. As I said before: a gun is only as good or as bad as the person using it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

And you found a "right to bear guns" in the bible?

Really?

 

[Argy Lacedom]

After reading the Bible, I have changed my outlook on gun ownership. I believe that the Australian laws need to be changed to allow civilians to use them - especially for the protection of women and kids.

Jesus f-ing Christ!!

What makes a woman's life more important than a man's?

I suspect what you're trying to say is that the weak in our comminuty need access to guns in order to protect themselves. But just think about the situations in which you prescribe they should be used - in most cases the victims are caught by surprise, without ready access to a gun because most law abiding citizens would try to keep them out of reach so they can't be accessed discharged by toddlers and other innocent potential accident victims. All you would be doing by de-criminalising gin ownership is to make it easier for the stronger and more determined oppressors of teh weak, like rapists and such, to get access to them.

You would be exacerbating the plight of the victim, not easing it.

 

[luchsgud]

After reading the Bible, I have changed my outlook on gun ownership. I believe that the Australian laws need to be changed to allow civilians to use them - especially for the protection of women and kids.

Women need to have the right to shoot the likes or rapists and stalkers, as well as paedophiles. That is the only sure-fire (sorry for the pun!) way that vermin like that will never be able to offend again.

The "throw the guns away for the sake of our children" was incredibly naive and stupid. We need to teach children the world is not a lollipops, roses and fairies place, but one filled with danger and dark characters.

Jesus taught that there are times when we will need to 'trade our cloaks for a sword'.

Luke 22: 35 - 38 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.

So yes, Jesus was not 100% pacifist as some of these feel-good Christian types might want to think.

With that said, there is the commandment "Thou shalt not commit murder". Murder refers to the killing of an innocent being, or killing somebody for no good reason.

Killing a person with a gun out of self-defence, or protecting your friends and loved-ones in a life threatening situation ought to be decriminalised.

You can't expect me to take your quotation of Luke seriously? And your reply to my post? Really.

Because a person refuses to have anything to do with a gun he's a facist? Too simple minded.

I believe in law and order and [if you must know] I believe in capitol punishment, but I do not believe that everyone has the right to take the law into their own hands.

The only reason you found support for guns in Scripture is because you wanted to. Its really not there.

I see no reason why the laws of Australia need to be repealed to satisfy your urge to own a gun. Go to South Africa. Owning a gun is likely to get you killed. They just are not the deterant you claim them to be.

The difference between your story and mine, is mine's the truth [oh, but I forgot Argy's argument. I can't prove it so you don't have to believe it. One's dead and the other two were friends in another country. I'd have no idea where they are now].

 

[TheDag]

Jesus taught that there are times when we will need to 'trade our cloaks for a sword'.

Luke 22: 35 - 38 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?” “Nothing,” they answered. He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.” The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.” “That is enough,” he replied.

So yes, Jesus was not 100% pacifist as some of these feel-good Christian types might want to think.

Your interpretation of that scripture while popular with pro-gun argument does not make sense. Ok it is possible I suppose that Jesus intended that his disciples should never ever again in their lives go off to different places but rather all travel to the exact same place. For your interpretation to be correct that must be the case otherwise how else is two swords enough for eleven people? Rather the more common understanding of the passage makes more sense. That is that Jesus was warning about persecution to come.

 

[tgg]

And you found a "right to bear guns" in the bible?

Really?

It's not so much a matter of guns, as it is a matter of the right to defend oneself. Guns were not around in the Biblical times, but still defending oneself against enemies was.

In the end I believe "every man and woman for themselves". What makes the likes of policemen and soldiers more important than other citizens? Can they excrete better than us?

 

[MoreCoffee]

It isn't that a police man is better than are you. What marks the difference between vigilantism and an orderly society is that in the former every man is for himself while in the latter law is used to order society.

 

[TheDag]

It's not so much a matter of guns, as it is a matter of the right to defend oneself. Guns were not around in the Biblical times, but still defending oneself against enemies was.

can you provide a NT scripture to support this? Please don't say you already did unless you can provide an explanation in response to my post (#31)

In the end I believe "every man and woman for themselves". What makes the likes of policemen and soldiers more important than other citizens? Can they excrete better than us?

Nope they aren't better or worse than any other person. Of course they have better training. Two years to become a police officer if you pass as opposed to one day to become a security guard who can carry a firearm. Police have rules to follow while vigilante groups are a law unto themselves and it can be a matter of opinion. While it is an extreme look at the simpsons episode where homer leads a vigilante gang. They end up doing alot of things to benefit themselves. These days also if the vigilante group was older they would attack people with views like yours re naturism. Do you think that is a good idea? I don't.

 

[Tahoenite]

Your interpretation of that scripture while popular with pro-gun argument does not make sense. Ok it is possible I suppose that Jesus intended that his disciples should never ever again in their lives go off to different places but rather all travel to the exact same place. For your interpretation to be correct that must be the case otherwise how else is two swords enough for eleven people? Rather the more common understanding of the passage makes more sense. That is that Jesus was warning about persecution to come.

I have to disagree, if they were told to take shield that would make sense for persecution. The fact that they were swords and the number are very important. Swords have one purpose and that is a weapon. That two were sufficient I always understood that the fighting was not limited being the responsibility of one disciple and not enough that most of them would fight. A little less than 20% would need to take up arms.

We are all unique creations in Christ and some of us have the feeling that we will be called to fight those that would do evil, the best way to be ready is to make sure we are as well armed and prepared for when the Lord calls upon us to act in those situations.

 

[TheDag]

I have to disagree, if they were told to take shield that would make sense for persecution. The fact that they were swords and the number are very important. Swords have one purpose and that is a weapon. That two were sufficient I always understood that the fighting was not limited being the responsibility of one disciple and not enough that most of them would fight. A little less than 20% would need to take up arms.

We are all unique creations in Christ and some of us have the feeling that we will be called to fight those that would do evil, the best way to be ready is to make sure we are as well armed and prepared for when the Lord calls upon us to act in those situations.

it is still a stretch as it requires all the disciples to go together everywhere for the rest of their lives. After all if only two were defending the entire group how could they do that if they are in completely different cities as they frequently were. Makes no sense so still the most logical is the common view that it is a warning against persecution and it was not meant literally to take up swords.

 

[Tahoenite]

it is still a stretch as it requires all the disciples to go together everywhere for the rest of their lives. After all if only two were defending the entire group how could they do that if they are in completely different cities as they frequently were. Makes no sense so still the most logical is the common view that it is a warning against persecution and it was not meant literally to take up swords.

I think you misunderstand my point, not all of them are supposed to fight. Some were to be persecuted and martyred, others may be expected to fight. I do not believe they all had the same calling to go to the same places and suffer the same hardships.

In Rom. 13 it is clear that God has created some to bear the sword, I believe usually applying to law enforcement. However I also believe that if a ruling body allows citizens to be armed they also can fall under Rom. 13 description.

Rom 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Locally we did have a man with a CCW shoot and stop a angry man that was shooting into a bar trying to exact revenge on another man that was in the bar.

 

[TheDag]

I think you misunderstand my point, not all of them are supposed to fight. Some were to be persecuted and martyred, others may be expected to fight. I do not believe they all had the same calling to go to the same places and suffer the same hardships.

I did partly misunderstand. Still however judging from available evidence in the bible I can't agree with this. It does also seem to conflict with several passages about being persecuted because of God. Those passages suggest it is a good thing yet don't mention fighting back.

In Rom. 13 it is clear that God has created some to bear the sword, I believe usually applying to law enforcement. However I also believe that if a ruling body allows citizens to be armed they also can fall under Rom. 13 description.


Rom 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Romans 13 also shows that the main argument used by the pro gun lobby is invalid. They say you need guns to protect yourself from the government. Can't have it both ways.

 

[tgg]

We need weapons to protect ourselves from corrupt governments.

 

[Tahoenite]

I did partly misunderstand. Still however judging from available evidence in the bible I can't agree with this. It does also seem to conflict with several passages about being persecuted because of God. Those passages suggest it is a good thing yet don't mention fighting back.



Romans 13 also shows that the main argument used by the pro gun lobby is invalid. They say you need guns to protect yourself from the government. Can't have it both ways.

In some sense at least in the US the right to bear arms were written into the constitution to keep the government in check, as well as be ready to be called into a militia if the country needed defending.

The ownership of a firearms by citizens can be an assistance to government in some circumstances. The Lord had Nehemiah and those that helped rebuild Jerusalem holding or carrying a weapons while working, some were posted as guard as others labored always having a spear at the ready. We are all not meant to fight, however some are and they should be armed as they follow the path the Lord has given them.

Neh 4
16 From that day on, half of my men did the work, while the other half were equipped with spears, shields, bows and armor. The officers posted themselves behind all the people of Judah 17 who were building the wall. Those who carried materials did their work with one hand and held a weapon in the other, 18 and each of the builders wore his sword at his side as he worked. But the man who sounded the trumpet stayed with me.
19 Then I said to the nobles, the officials and the rest of the people, “The work is extensive and spread out, and we are widely separated from each other along the wall. 20 Wherever you hear the sound of the trumpet, join us there. Our God will fight for us!”
21 So we continued the work with half the men holding spears, from the first light of dawn till the stars came out. 22 At that time I also said to the people, “Have every man and his helper stay inside Jerusalem at night, so they can serve us as guards by night and as workers by day.” 23 Neither I nor my brothers nor my men nor the guards with me took off our clothes; each had his weapon, even when he went for water.[c]