Janie's Got A Gun

[Tahoenite]

If I do not have the gift of being able to believe is that my fault or my creator's?
Sin would never have arisen in a world created perfectly by a perfect creator unless the perfect creator intended it to be so. No?
.

Argy, God gave us free will and guidelines on how we should use the free will. It is not His fault that we didn't listen.

It would be similar to giving a young person a car that just got their driver's license, telling them that they need to be careful and pay attention when driving. If the young person goes and doesn't pay attention, is not careful and gets into an accident. Who's fault is it?

If God knew we would sin and created us anyway. That sounds like normal people that want to have children. They know their kids will bring them heartache but they accept that and have children anyway.

 

[luchsgud]

If I do not have the gift of being able to believe is that my fault or my creator's?
Sin would never have arisen in a world created perfectly by a perfect creator unless the perfect creator intended it to be so. No?
.

The answer to that is no.

Ezekiel 28:15. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God was and never is responsible for any created being's sin. We are responsible for all our sin.

The law of nature, which God created says, "The soul that sins will die."

God gave his only Son to die for us so that he might redeem us back to himself.

James 1:13. Let no man say when he is tempted, "I am tempted of God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
James 1:14. But every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James 1:15. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

God had no intention fo there ever being sin, but he did accomodate its existence through grace.

And that grace you can receive if you will believe in his Son Jesus Christ.

 

[luchsgud]

If I am to thank him for the gift of intelligence isn't it only right that I should blame him for my inability to believe he exists?

Argy I assure you, you do not have an inability to believe he exists. Your choice not to believe is actually in contrast to how he created you.

John 3:17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the Only Begotten Son of God.
John 3:19. And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:20. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light lest his deeds be reproved.
John 3:21. But he that doeth good cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Because of Jesus Christ we all have the ability to believe.

The only question that remains is, will we believe or not?

 

[tgg]

The issue is: why doesn't God intervene today in human affairs like he did in the Bible and have modern day reporters to write it down? Why should he only communicate with mankind with what's written in the Bible only?

 

[luchsgud]

The issue is: why doesn't God intervene today in human affairs like he did in the Bible and have modern day reporters to write it down? Why should he only communicate with mankind with what's written in the Bible only?

Oh but he does. It was the news that reported the Ethiopian evangelist who raised the woman from the dead. There are countless other stories told of God intervening in the lives of many, however most choose to disbelieve them.

That is why we have the Bible. It is a record of how God does things that we may refer to when we see what God is doing today.

Take, for instance, the bloke who was raised from the dead beneath a Bonke crusade in Nigeria. The doctor pronounced him dead, and admitted it. The security guards acknowledged the events, yet many choose not to believe it. Bonke himself did not even know what was occuring till after the crusade.

God is communicating in a very real way through more that just what's written in the Bible, but he's certainly not changing his ways or his mind.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Argy, God gave us free will and guidelines on how we should use the free will. It is not His fault that we didn't listen.

Of course it is. If he wanted us to listen he qould have deisgned us to listen. Unless, of course, he is not a perfect designer!

It would be similar to giving a young person a car that just got their driver's license, telling them that they need to be careful and pay attention when driving. If the young person goes and doesn't pay attention, is not careful and gets into an accident. Who's fault is it?

Your analogy does not work.

I might give my child a car but I did not create the dangers on the road. God created the road and all the dangers on it. He also designed it so that if you make a mistake you suffer for all eternity.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

The answer to that is no.

Ezekiel 28:15. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Who put the iniquity in thee if not God?

And if you answer it was us who did so, who gave us the propensity to do so if not God?

The law of nature, which God created says, "The soul that sins will die."

God could create any law of nature. Why did he make one so that anyone who is created imperfectly goes to hell for all eternity? A sane and compassionate god would have made a law of nature whereby the imperfectly created could be corrected at no cost to themselves.

God gave his only Son to die for us so that he might redeem us back to himself.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. No woner most of the world's population thinks Christianity is bunkum. Who in their right mind would think it is logical for an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being to incarnate himself as a human so he could have himself killed in a grotesque bloody sacrifice so that he could allow himself to forgive hmself for making an imperfect creation?

God had no intention fo there ever being sin,

Then god is an imperfect creator.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Argy I assure you, you do not have an inability to believe he exists.

I do not have a choice of what I believe. I cannot choose to like vanilla over chocolate, I cannot choose to like murder, I cannot choose to like poverty and suffering. And I cannot choose to believe something when I think it is bunkum. These are things are part of my nature - in your terms, my god given nature.

Your choice not to believe is actually in contrast to how he created you.

Bullsh1t. I had no say in how I was made up. I had no choice about my hair colour, my height, my intellectual abiliities or my sexual orientation. I have no choice about how I come to believe some things rather than others. And I have no choice to believe something when I think it is bunkum.

Ask yourself; why do you believe in Jesus but not the tooth fairy?

 

[Tahoenite]

Your analogy does not work.

I might give my child a car but I did not create the dangers on the road. God created the road and all the dangers on it. He also designed it so that if you make a mistake you suffer for all eternity.

Argy,with knowing all the dangers that come with driving would you still let your child drive, or would you keep them at home knowing it is not safe out there?

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Argy,with knowing all the dangers that come with driving would you still let your child drive, or would you keep them at home knowing it is not safe out there?

The analogy doesn't work.

If you changed it to say that I had created all the dangers on the road and then given my children insufficient skill to avoid them then the analogy might hold. But in its current form it doesn't.

 

[Tahoenite]

The analogy doesn't work.

If you changed it to say that I had created all the dangers on the road and then given my children insufficient skill to avoid them then the analogy might hold. But in its current form it doesn't.

Would you want your child to stay in a padded room forever?

 

[TheDag]

Of course it is. If he wanted us to listen he qould have deisgned us to listen. Unless, of course, he is not a perfect designer!

This is pure opinion. An opinion that enables you to continue to claim you are incapable of making a choice despite all the choices you make. I could have looked around for a nice meek woman to marry who would never argue and do everything I say. How would I know that she loved me? (yes there are women like that sadly I have met many) Rather I know my wife loves me despite my flaws. I think it is far better to be genuinely loved than a love that you don't know is real. Same as I appreciate an friend who will be honest with me rather than tell me what they think I want to hear.

I might give my child a car but I did not create the dangers on the road. God created the road and all the dangers on it. He also designed it so that if you make a mistake you suffer for all eternity.

How is God responsible for this? If a person chooses to speed (especially in the wet) that has nothing to do with danger in roads but rather stupidity and immaturity of an individual. Your suggestion in post #70 is not accurate. We have sufficient skill to avoid spending eternity in hell. Please explain to me how someone like me who is so cynical, sceptical and tries to find fault was able to believe if we do not have the skill?

 

[TheDag]

I do not have a choice of what I believe. I cannot choose to like vanilla over chocolate, I cannot choose to like murder, I cannot choose to like poverty and suffering. And I cannot choose to believe something when I think it is bunkum. These are things are part of my nature - in your terms, my god given nature.Bullsh1t. I had no say in how I was made up. I had no choice about my hair colour, my height, my intellectual abiliities or my sexual orientation. I have no choice about how I come to believe some things rather than others. And I have no choice to believe something when I think it is bunkum.

Not sure what your hair colour has to do with anything. Of course people have a choice in why they believe some things but not others. Why else do you think scientists argue over what is true or not with the same set of facts as evidence to back up both sides? Because they can make a choice. What you fail to realise like many is that christianity is a faith. Not a blind faith but still a faith. So at some point one does have to trust rather than have evidence for every single little bit.

So what evidence do you have that people can't choose to like murder. We know murderers exist. Some do it out of a fit of passion or anger or similar. However there are those that are premeditated and planned. Am I supposed to accept that automatically means they liked murder from the beginning?

Ask yourself; why do you believe in Jesus but not the tooth fairy?

Easy to answer this one. My parents told me they put the money out and they were seen doing it. Hard to believe it is the tooth fairy when you have seen otherwise. God has proven to me he exists. He did something that I believed never happened and was a hoax by people who claimed healing happened. In scripture class in year 4 (9 years old) I took the scripture teacher on when she was teaching a lesson and she acknowledged her error. So I didn't just take somebody's word for it.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Would you want your child to stay in a padded room forever?

What does my ability inability to control the environment my children live in have to do with an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being that can?

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Why else do you think scientists argue over what is true or not with the same set of facts as evidence to back up both sides?

Scientists rarely argue over what the facts are, but over how to interpret those facts. A scientist can't change his threshold of belief; he can't change the fact that things don't add up for him. The best he can do is suspend judgement until different evidence is produced that carries him over the belief threshold.

What you fail to realise like many is that christianity is a faith. Not a blind faith but still a faith.

I don't see the difference between faith and blind faith. They are both belief without evidence.

So at some point one does have to trust rather than have evidence for every single little bit.

That's exactly what I mean. The reason you need to trust is because your threshold of belief has not been crossed. The threshold of belief is different for all of us. We have no control over what that threshold is, how long it will take to cross it or what knowledge/experience will be required to cross it.

I used to be a believer but as my knowledge increased I became more and more sceptical until now I call myself an atheist.

So I didn't just take somebody's word for it.

Let me illustrate my point by asking you a question.

You say that belief is a choice... Could you choose to permanently stop believing within the next ten minutes?

 

[luchsgud]

I used to be a believer but as my knowledge increased I became more and more sceptical until now I call myself an atheist.

Aah... so you weren't created with the inability to believe.

You say that belief is a choice... Could you choose to permanently stop believing within the next ten minutes?

Yes, but I won't. You just revealed that you made that choice. If you can, anyone can.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Aah... so you weren't created with the inability to believe.

Wrong.

I believed then only because I was more ignorant than I am now. Once I began to educate myself my disbelief grew. I had no choice over this.

 

[luchsgud]

Wrong.

I believed then only because I was more ignorant than I am now. Once I began to educate myself my disbelief grew. I had no choice over this.

Actually I'm not wrong.

See... you were created "ignorant" as you call it. Since you believed when you were "ignorant" it is obvious you were created with the ability to believe.

Since you "educated" yourself [I quote, "Once I began to educate myself"] it is you who created in you the ability not to believe, not God.

It seems to me you did have a choice over this. You could at least have chosen to remain "ignorant" and believing.

Life clearly shows us that education is a choice. Your argument is invalidated.

 

[Argy Lacedom]

Since you "educated" yourself [I quote, "Once I began to educate myself"] it is you who created in you the ability not to believe, not God.

How could I have educated myself to the point of disbelief if God had not created me with that ability?

You could at least have chosen to remain "ignorant" and believing.

How could I have known education would make me disbelieve before becoming educated? And why would god give me the desire to educate myself if doing so condemns me to eternal suffering?

 

[Tahoenite]

What does my ability inability to control the environment my children live in have to do with an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being that can?

You did not answer the question. Would you let your child go out where it is unsafe or keep them hidden away for the rest of their lives?