It should be Murder?

[ximmix]

Please refrain from treating me like a high school student I will "look up" whatever I deem is necessary to look up and the information you demanded is not necessary. As for the scenario you are painting, that's rather over the top isn't it? I don't expect the government should launch an investigation without probable cause. As with income taxes, where the government depends upon companies to donate their services as tax collectors, I would expect that the government would use private medical practitioners as free sources of information and require doctors to report any cases of spontaneous abortions that they suspected were instead premeditated murder. Unless such a report was made the presumption of innocence would , unlike with the IRS , apply. Remember the OP has made it a given that this hypothetical situation involves abortion being murder. That being the case, it would be treated as any other murder. The government does not conduct surveillance of every citizen 24/7 to assure itself that no one is committing murder on the sly. It does not keep constant tabs on spouse because a percentage of spouses murders their spouse why would they do so for pregnant women? Just so you could pretend that they would have to and therefore would be unable to prosecute the law?Since there is supposed to be a presumption of innocence, I see no reason why pregnancy would change the way murder investigations were conducted. Unless some probable cause to suspect a women of murder rather than spontaneous abortion were to come to light there would not be anything more needed than the initial doctor's report of a spontaneous abortion. Additionally, if the government were for some reason to decide to go overboard to the ridiculous degree you propose, could they not move the resources used on the war on drugs to homicide investigation or go further into debt ? Surely murder is a much more serious offense than possession and stopping murder is much more important than things like bailing out large corporations,giving tax breaks to crony capitalists or perhaps even slightly more important than providing Obamaphones?

Wow, that's an impressive block of text. Good for you...

 

[grasping the after wind]

Wow, that's an impressive block of text. Good for you...

I am simply taking the assumptions of the hypothetical to its logical conclusion. I would hope that no one would confuse that with advocating for the hypothetical's assumptions.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Do you think every terminated pregnancy, natural or not, should be a court case..?

No, even if I DID I am no fool. There are FAR too many cases in the system for that to be the case.

 

[jenny1972]

So answer my question please. If a woman is found to have an IUD fitted, you would have her arrested for attempted murder, correct?

yes

 

[jenny1972]

My objection? Why do you ask if I would have an objection? Why not ask the thousands and thousands of women who annually suffer the disappointment and pain of a miscarriage how they would feel about having that pain increased by the police coming to call?!

I told you the police wouldnt be coming to call unless there was a reason to suspect a crime had been committed if a healthcare provider noticed signs a violent abortion has taken place . If its not detected by a healthcare professional the police wouldnt become involved .

 

[jenny1972]

We are discussing abortions and miscarriages. They do not involve children. Learn some basic biology please.

basic biology indicates that fetuses are nothing other than very young children .

 

[jenny1972]

Funny, it is rather common in society to hear the phrase "She is with child" during the pregnancy.

Or "Hi, how's the baby doing?" to a pregnant woman.

"Hi, how's your son/daughter?" if it is known by ultrasound which they're going to have.

If it isn't a child, or a baby, or what-not until it is born, then what's with all the "Baby on Board" shirts for pregnant women?

How many pregnant women complain about their baby kicking in the womb? I've never heard a woman say "oh man, my fetus is kicking again"...

 

[ximmix]

No, even if I DID I am no fool. There are FAR too many cases in the system for that to be the case.

Ah ok, I thought you said it was up to the courts to decide. But not in every case..?

 

[AlexDTX]

For example, if it is reported to the authorities that a woman who was known to be pregnant is no longer so, how should they proceed?

Laws are always failure. Cultural stigma has always been the means of societal control historically.When the majority believe one way, shame is natural upon those who want to be identified with the majority. The Church has failed this generation because she has sought to influence our culture by laws. The mission of the gospel has never changed. Societies are changed when individual hearts are changed by the grace of God.

 

[ximmix]

Laws are always failure. Cultural stigma has always been the means of societal control historically.When the majority believe one way, shame is natural upon those who want to be identified with the majority. The Church has failed this generation because she has sought to influence our culture by laws. The mission of the gospel has never changed. Societies are changed when individual hearts are changed by the grace of God.

So you have no answer to his question then...

 

[Black Dog]

A doctor will be able to tell if you're no longer pregnant...but he's not always (probably not often) going to be able to tell "why" you're not pregnant.

So...how would you proceed in this enormous number of cases? I only say enormous because it would include the vast majority of abortions and miscarriages.

I agree. I would classify 10 to 20% of all pregnancies as an enormous number:

Miscarriage is the loss of a pregnancy in the first 20 weeks. (In medical articles, you may see the term "spontaneous abortion" used in place of miscarriage.) About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage, and more than 80 percent of these losses happen before 12 weeks.
Miscarriage: Signs, causes, and treatment | BabyCenter
www.babycenter.com/0_miscarriage-signs-causes-and-treatment_252.bc

 

[AlexDTX]

So you have no answer to his question then...

My answer is for the Church to bring Christ to individuals and the Spirit will change the hearts of those who would abort their babies. As for the Church their leaders have failed to make disciples of those who are Christians. A follower of Christ denies self and exercises self control. The leaders are examples and they media has had a field day exposing their shameful behaviors. Laws never work. They increase crime, not decrease it. And often the law enforcers become criminal in how they try to enforce the laws.

 

[ScottA]

And you make that pronouncement? How grand of you!

At any given time, the will of the people IS what is 'right'. History shows us this time and time again.

Live on in your fantasy.

The sheeple are always right? Yeah right!

 

[Tree of Life]

You are stating the obvious. This will not prevent women from securing abortions in one way or another.

It will certainly prevent some women, though not all. But the point of laws is not to prevent all crime. Rather, laws restrict and penalize certain behavior in order to generally discourage crime. No law prevents all people from violating it. This would not work as an argument for all other laws to be discarded, so why should it have merit in this case?

Nor does it give an explanation as to how it would be determined that a woman had miscarried or had arranged an abortion.

In many cases this may very well be impossible. It might be extremely difficult to establish that a woman who was 1-12 weeks pregnant acted to intentionally abort her fetus. But this isn't really all that important. What's important is that the medical community is restricted from practicing abortion. Let's consider suicide as a parallel example.

Suicide is sort of illegal. Of course, victims of suicide cannot be prosecuted and people who attempt suicide will not be arrested and tried - though they will probably be subjected to some form of care. But we've made laws that make it impossible for doctors to assist someone in committing suicide. Abortion laws should be similar.

Perhaps the best solution from a legal perspective is to make abortion alegal. It should not be legal in such a way that doctors can freely offer this service. But it should not be illegal in such a way that a woman would be arrested for personally acting to abort her fetus.

 

[xpower]

It may be harsh, but any woman caught trying or getting an abortion should be executed, god willing. That is the only way to stop this trend of child murdering, and the abortion records should be made public, and the people who have gotten abortions should be punished to scare others from getting them.

This is just Evil. I don't understand how someone can call themselves pro-life and support execution.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Ah ok, I thought you said it was up to the courts to decide. But not in every case..?

Assuming that people were crazy enough to oppose this some juries may be unwilling to convict even if the state proved the case.

 

[dogs4thewin]

This is just Evil. I don't understand how someone can call themselves pro-life and support execution.

I personally do NOT support the death penalty, BUT some will argue basically that the person had a chance and they deserve to die because they did a particular act (usually murder).

 

[ximmix]

Assuming that people were crazy enough to oppose this some juries may be unwilling to convict even if the state proved the case.

So you do think all women with terminated pregnancies should be prosecuted and tried by a jury? Not sure what you mean...

 

[xpower]

I personally do NOT support the death penalty, BUT some will argue basically that the person had a chance and they deserve to die because they did a particular act (usually murder).

Execution is still just as bad as murder and abortion to me.

 

[ICX]

That's not harsh. That's evil.

-CryptoLutheran

Of course the heretic lutheran would be the one supporting the murder of babies.