It should be Murder?

[SteveB28]

I see many here who would wish to deny a woman the right to terminate a pregnancy, by declaring that it would be an act of murder.

And yet I also see those same people running away from this question:

How would such a law be enforced?

 

[SteveB28]

For example, if it is reported to the authorities that a woman who was known to be pregnant is no longer so, how should they proceed?

 

[JackRT]

Perhaps thumbscrews, the rack or the pear of agony?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

The death penalty?

[/sarcasm]

 

[Cearbhall]

For example, if it is reported to the authorities that a woman who was known to be pregnant is no longer so, how should they proceed?

Indeed. It seems to me that most pro-life people are only interested in getting rid of clinical abortions, without thinking about back-alley abortions or the other actions that sometimes lead to the termination of a pregnancy. Shouldn't they be just as concerned about drinking alcohol during pregnancy, or partaking in rigorous or risky physical activity?

 

[SteveB28]

Indeed. It seems to me that most pro-life people are only interested in getting rid of clinical abortions, without thinking about back-alley abortions or the other actions that sometimes lead to the termination of a pregnancy. Shouldn't they be just as concerned about drinking alcohol during pregnancy, or partaking in rigorous or risky physical activity?

Yes, in fact the number of "back-alley" procedures will rise enormously if such a cruel and ridiculous law were to be introduced. I can well remember in my country prior to the 1970's the frequent horrific tales of unfortunate women faced with no other alternative than to risk their life and health over an abortion performed by a rank amateur. These fools would see us return to those times, presumably.

Moreover, where do they see the plight of the unlucky woman who suffers a miscarriage unfolding? Would she have to suffer doubly by facing the ignominy of a police investigation, to ensure that she hadn't 'murdered' her foetus?

You will note, of course, that there is a disproportionate number of men urging such a change.

 

[Armoured]

Usual suspect strangely quiet in this thread. How curious.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

I can well remember in my country prior to the 1970's the frequent horrific tales of unfortunate women faced with no other alternative than to risk their life and health over an abortion performed by a rank amateur.

No alternative? I can easily think of one.

Have the baby.

 

[Armoured]

No alternative? I can easily think of one.

Have the baby.

Oh, well that was simple. We've solved the abortion issue. What should we solve next?

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

For example, if it is reported to the authorities that a woman who was known to be pregnant is no longer so, how should they proceed?

If abortions were actually classified as murder, they'd be handled like any murder case would be.

First Degree Murder: if the mother premeditated the murder of the baby (gave it thought, planned it, and executed it in a cool and deliberate manner.) So if there were evidence that the mother went to a doctor, and had a abortion, it'd be first degree probably, pretty easy for the jury to infer premeditation there.

Second Degree Murder: Second Degree Murder is known as reckless and depraved heart murder. You might not have intended to kill the baby, but you certainly acted indifferent towards it's life. For example, if the mother snorted cocaine and drank heavily, resulting in the death of the baby, it might be second degree murder, if you have the evidence to prove the baby died as a result of drug or alcohol abuse.

Accidental deaths as the result of negligence, would be involuntary manslaughter.

It'd probably be much easier to prove murder in abortion cases than regular old murder, kinda hard to hide the fact you used to be pregnant and now aren't, also hard to hide medical records, or lack there of.

It'd be awfully suspicious to show up one day with no pregnant belly 6 months in, there'd be a lot of explaining to do.

 

[Armoured]

If abortions were actually classified as murder, they'd be handled like any murder case would be.

First Degree Murder: if the mother premeditated the murder of the baby (gave it thought, planned it, and executed it in a cool and deliberate manner.) So if there were evidence that the mother went to a doctor, and had a abortion, it'd be first degree probably, pretty easy for the jury to infer premeditation there.

Second Degree Murder: Second Degree Murder is known as reckless and depraved heart murder. You might not have intended to kill the baby, but you certainly acted indifferent towards it's life. For example, if the mother snorted cocaine and drank heavily, resulting in the death of the baby, it might be second degree murder, if you have the evidence to prove the baby died as a result of drug or alcohol abuse.

Accidental deaths as the result of negligence, would be involuntary manslaughter.

It'd probably be much easier to prove murder in abortion cases than regular old murder, kinda hard to hide the fact you used to be pregnant and now aren't, also hard to hide medical records, or lack there of.

It'd be awfully suspicious to show up one day with no pregnant belly 6 months in, there'd be a lot of explaining to do.

Way to miss the point. A huge number of pregnancies spontaneously abort, called miscarriages. Do they all get a murder investigation?

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

Way to miss the point. A huge number of pregnancies spontaneously abort, called miscarriages. Do they all get a murder investigation?

Why would they? Murder requires intent or extremely recklessness. I'm sure a doctor's report would easily show what is what. I imagine you'd want to go to a doctor if you had a miscarriage.

I understand his point, he's trying to say it would be hard to know what is murder and what is not in the case of pregnancies.

It would not be hard at all, it would in fact be much easier than almost all murder cases.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Why would they? Murder requires intent or extremely recklessness. I'm sure a doctor's report would easily show what is what. I imagine you'd want to go to a doctor if you had a miscarriage.

I understand his point, he's trying to say it would be hard to know what is murder and what is not in the case of pregnancies.

It would not be hard at all, it would in fact be much easier than almost all murder cases.

A doctor will be able to tell if you're no longer pregnant...but he's not always (probably not often) going to be able to tell "why" you're not pregnant.

So...how would you proceed in this enormous number of cases? I only say enormous because it would include the vast majority of abortions and miscarriages.

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

A doctor will be able to tell if you're no longer pregnant...but he's not always (probably not often) going to be able to tell "why" you're not pregnant.

So...how would you proceed in this enormous number of cases? I only say enormous because it would include the vast majority of abortions and miscarriages.

I think if you did a back alley abortion, your body would show it.

And what is the number for enormous?

 

[Armoured]

Why would they? Murder requires intent or extremely recklessness. I'm sure a doctor's report would easily show what is what. I imagine you'd want to go to a doctor if you had a miscarriage.

I understand his point, he's trying to say it would be hard to know what is murder and what is not in the case of pregnancies.

It would not be hard at all, it would in fact be much easier than almost all murder cases.

Actually, most miscarriages occur in the first trimester and require no medical intervention. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[ChristJudgeOfAll]

Actually, most miscarriages occur in the first trimester and require no medical intervention. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good story.

So no need to investigate then, unless someone reports it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think if you did a back alley abortion, your body would show it.

And what is the number for enormous?

Why do you think it would "show it"? Why do you think the young murderess is gonna go to the Dr the next day? You don't think she can wait 3-4 weeks and tell the Dr "I think I just got my period?!? What happened??"

Or do you think back alley abortionists give clients a stamp every time they get an abortion? Get 5 stamps and your next abortion is free?

 

[Ana the Ist]

So no need to investigate then, unless someone reports it.

So as long as they get away with murder in the first trimester....you're ok with it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

So no need to investigate then, unless someone reports it.

Would you also propose legislation to take away parental rights of rapists?

If I'm not mistaken...men convicted of rape still get their parental rights once they get out of jail, if they seek them of course.

 

[ximmix]

So no need to investigate then, unless someone reports it.

So if it's a natural miscarriage there's no need to investigate. But how do you determine if it is a natural miscarriage without investigating..?