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It just occurred to me

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by shmuel, Feb 6, 2005.

  1. shmuel

    shmuel Active Member

    as I was posting on another thread that the First Temple was destroyed in 586 BCE that traditional Judaism frequently teaches that the First Temple was destroyed around 423 BCE in order that there be a 490 year period between the destruction of the First Temple and the destruction of the Second Temple. This is done to find fulfillment for Daniel's prophecy of seventy sevens. See, for example:






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  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Daniel 9:24-26 "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    My understanding has always been that Daniel was praying for the understanding of Jeremiah of the restoration of Israel, that the 70 year exile was to soon be over.

    Daniel 9:2
    in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

    Daniel understood that from the commandment to go forth and restore and build Jerusalem is the start of his prophecy.

    Command given in 457 BC by king Artaxerxes to rebuild the temple at Jerusalem. see Ezra 7:11-28

    Ezra 7:11 Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel. 12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time. 13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

    The temple was finished in 408 BC, taking 49 years to rebuild it. Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks (490 days/years) are determined..." "Determined" translates "cut off" (Strong's Concordance #2852, and this is the only time this word is used), so 70 weeks are cut off, but from what?

    Daniel 9:24-25 "...to anoint the most Holy...the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks (49 days/years), and threescore and two weeks (434 days/years)..." Yeshua Messiah was anointed with the oil of joy or gladness (Isaiah 61:1-3; Psalms 45:7; Luke 4:18-21) which symbolized the Holy Spirit anointing Yeshua (Matthew 3:13-17) to preach the good news of the gospel of grace, enabling us to unite with divinity and become free from committing all sins.

    Daniel 9:26-27 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself...in the midst of the week (3 1/2 days/years) He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease..." So can not the start of sacrificing again also start the last half of the missing week?

    "to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins." "Finish" translates "restrain" (Strong's #3067), and "transgression" translates "rebellion or sin" (Strong's #6588). Also, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" 1 John 1:9. Yeshua has provided a way that rebellion or sin against God can be forever restrained and ceased through His power, and also to have our past, confessed and forsaken sins forgiven. Thus sins would have an end.

    "to make reconciliation for iniquity." "Reconciliation means that every barrier between the soul and God is removed, and that the sinner realizes what the pardoning love of God means. By reason of the sacrifice made by Yeshua for fallen men, God can justly pardon the transgressor who accepts the merits of Yeshua as our Messiah. Sin caused a gulf to occur between humanity and God (Isaiah 59:1-2), but Yeshua bridged this gulf and brought us back into communion and fellowship with our Father! Final reconciliation will be on the Day of Atonement, better known as the Day of Judgement. Not the day of judgement that most think comes at Yeshua return. But the judgment before the plagues fall.

    "to bring in everlasting righteousness." "Men will learn of the reconciliation for iniquity and of the everlasting righteousness which the Messiah has brought in through His sacrifice. The cross of Calvary is the great center. This truth acted upon makes Yeshua's sacrifice effectual [not only confessing but in deed turning away from the sin that so easily beset us]....By the humiliation of the cross He was to bring in everlasting deliverance to all who would walk after Him, giving positive evidence that they are separated from the world which will have its completion on the Day of Atonement.

    By uniting ourselves with divinity and using our will in determined efforts against temptation and sin, as did our Saviour, we might be everlastingly freed from the bondage of sin to live perfect, righteous lives!

    "to seal up the vision and prophecy." "To seal" translates "to close up, make an end" (Strong's #2856). The 70 week vision and prophecy was sealed up or ended.

    "to anoint the most Holy." Yeshua, was anointed by the Holy Spirit at Baptism, and on the Day of Atonement when He is married to His bride, in heavenly wedlock, the most Holy will be anointed.

    "confirm covenant with many for one week." From 27-31 AD (3 1/2 years), was it the old covenant being confirmed??? it's principles are one in the same as the new--to restore man into God's image by writing His law in our hearts and minds (Proverbs 3:3, 7:3; Jeremiah 24:6-7, 17:10). The new covenant centers around Yeshua as our high Priest in the heavenly sanctuary consisting of 2 apartments (Hebrews 8:1-13, 10:10-22)!

    In the first apartment of the earthly sanctuary, upon the altar, was where the blood of the slain innocent lamb was placed for the sins of the people. These sins remained in the holy place all year until the day of atonement, when these would then be taken into the second apartment by the high priest to be completely forgiven by God and removed from the sanctuary, thus cleansing it. While Yeshua was on this earth, the atonement for sin could not have been completed--not even at the cross! The sacrifice and spilt blood of the innocent Lamb of God did take place, but Christ could not officiate before the Father as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary and cover our confessed and forsaken sins with His blood, until after His ascension (Hebrews 8:4). So, after Christ's ascension in 31 AD, He began ministering as our high Priest in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary.

    I guess the biggest question is, do we have a pick up of where Yeshua left off, with His first coming, at the start of Temple sacrifices? or did the prophecy end 3 1/2 years later with the stoning of Steven?

    Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    daily sacrifice -> 6 years and 3 months aprox. -> abomination of desolation

    Daniel 11:31
    And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    Daniel 12:11
    And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    daily sacrifice taken away -> 3 1/2 + 30 days -> abomination set-up

    "but not for himself" If he is not cut off for himself, then is He cut off for us? What does it mean to be cut off but not for himself....I never understood that.

    "and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary" This to me parallels Revelation 11: 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    forty-two months = 3 1/2 years.

    "the end thereof shall be with a flood," Isaiah 59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

    Daniel 11:22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, andshall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

    Matthew 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

    Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

    "unto the end of the war desolations are determined." I believe that the last of the "end of war" will be complete desolation.

    Isaiah 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    It just occurred to me, the cutting off but not for himself, is the time of the gentiles, when he is not considered a Jewish God in the flesh. The Jewish people have been cut off from their Messiah because of the gentile images presented.

    The Hebrew word for decreed means “to cut off” or “to determine.” Throughout his book, Daniel has been dealing with the theme of the Times of the Gentiles, the lengthy period that began with Nebuchadnezzar’s destruction of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. and will end with the close of the Tribulation and the Second Coming. Daniel was the prophet who was given lengthy and detailed revelation regarding the nature of the Times of the Gentiles, and it was Daniel who revealed that the Times of the Gentiles would undergo a history of four Gentile empires. In the seventy sevens passage, Daniel is told that a period of 490 years is being cut out or decreed out of the Times of the Gentiles for the accomplishment of the final restoration of Israel.
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Another thought just occurred to me....

    The center of the seventy sevens is decreed upon thy people (Daniel’s people, the Jewish people) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem). The centerpiece of the seventy sevens is, specifically, the Jewish people and the Jewish city of Jerusalem.

    The second part of verse 24 states the sixfold purpose of the seventy sevens, this 490-year period that God has decreed upon the Jewish people. The first purpose is to finish transgression. The Hebrew word translated to finish means “to restrain firmly,” “to restrain completely,” and “to bring to completion.” The word transgression is a very strong word for “sin.” It is a word that literally means “to rebel.” It is not merely to finish transgression, but to finish the transgression, to finish the rebellion.

    The second purpose is to make an end of sins. The Hebrew word translated to make an end means “to seal up” or “to shut up in a prison house.” It means “to be securely kept,” “to be locked up,” to be prevented from roaming at random. The Hebrew word for sins is one that means “to miss the mark,” and refers to sins in daily life. Sins, then, would be put to an end. But we know that there will be sins in the Kingdom; so the point of this passage is that though there may be sin among the Gentile nations in the Kingdom, there will be no sin in Israel at that time. This very same truth is taught in Isaiah 27:9; Ezekiel 36:25-27; 37:23; and Romans 11:27. This is also the point of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34, where Jeremiah clearly predicts the day will come when all Israel’s sins will be removed and all Israel will be saved (from the least to the greatest).

    The third purpose of the seventy sevens is to make reconciliation for iniquity. The Hebrew word for reconciliation means “to make an atonement.” This is the means by which the first and second purpose will be accomplished. The means by which Israel’s national sin of rejecting the Messiah will be removed, and the means by which her daily sins will be removed, is by means of an atonement. The word iniquity refers to the sin nature. The program of the seventy sevens is a cleansing of Israel that will include the removal of all three things: first, the national sin of rejecting His Messiahship; second, daily sins; third, the sin nature itself.

    The fourth purpose of these seventy sevens is to bring in everlasting righteousness, or, more literally, to bring in an age of righteousness – which is what the Hebrew word for everlasting really means. This age of righteousness (also referred to in Is. 1:26; 11:2-5; 32:17; and Jer. 23:5-6; 33:15-18) is called the Messianic Kingdom by Jewish people, and the Millennium by Gentile Christians.

    The fifth purpose of the seventy sevens is to cause a cessation of prophecy, both oral and written, because the program of the seventy sevens will contain the final fulfillment of all prophecies; the function of prophecies will cease at the Second Coming of Messiah. This evokes a question: how is it that the Messianic Kingdom will fulfill all prophecies when we know that there are also prophecies concerning the time beyond the Kingdom, the Eternal State? The answer is that all we know of the Eternal State is New Covenant revelation; no Old Testament prophet ever saw beyond the Kingdom into the Eternal Order. From the Old Testament perspective and in light of the fact that no prophet ever saw beyond the Messianic Kingdom, Daniel’s words about the sealing up of vision and prophecy mean that everything will, indeed, be fulfilled insofar as Old Covenant prophecy is concerned.

    The sixth and final purpose of these seventy sevens, we read in verse 24, is to anoint the most holy. From the Hebrew, it should actually read “to anoint a most holy place.” It is not a most holy person but a most holy place that is to be anointed. The most holy place is the Temple, but not the first Temple of Solomon nor the second Temple of Zerubbabel, and certainly not the third Temple of the Tribulation. Rather, it is the fourth Temple, the Temple of the Messianic Kingdom, built by the Lord Himself and anointed as part of the program of seventy sevens.
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    I have already indicated that I think that Cyrus is the right decree.

    So why go with the Cyrus decree. I base this on five reasons:

    1) this is a real decree, in the actual form of a decree.

    2) this is the one given the same year as the vision of the seventy sevens. The year Daniel received the seventy sevens vision was the same year that Cyrus passed his decree.

    3) this is the decree that is emphasized in Scripture. It was spoken of prophetically (Is. 44:28; 45:1, 13) about 150 years before it happened. In fact, Isaiah actually named the giver of this decree (Cyrus) at least 150 years before it occurred, and his prophecy is recorded in fulfillment four times (II Ch. 36:22-23; Ezr. 1:1-4; 6:1-5, 6-12). This is clearly the decree that is emphasized in Scripture.

    4) I believe this to be the decree of Cyrus is that this decree did include the building of the city.

    5) it speaks is because it is clear from parallel passages that the Jews did rebuild the city. In fact, they rebuilt the city before Nehemiah ever came to rebuild the walls. In Haggai 1:2-4, 70 years before Nehemiah arrived, the Jews were already living in private homes in Jerusalem though the Temple itself had not as yet been rebuilt. Certainly they would not dare to rebuild Jerusalem if they did not have permission to do so. According to Ezra 4:12, the city was being built even in Ezra’s day, and Ezra preceded the time of Nehemiah. I do believe the decree of which Daniel speaks is the decree of Cyrus, and that the seventy sevens began with the issuing of this decree.
    The first 483 years, i.e., the first 69 sevens, ended with Yeshua's birth.
  6. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Has no one gotten into the study of Daniel, or is no one interested?
  7. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

    Hey vis, :wave:

    There is something that I tell my Rabbi when he complains that no one is responding to his teachings. "It isn't polite to speak when your mouth is full" (implying that I am still chewing the meat that he has offered).

    And so it is with you...

    By the way, it is much easier to contribute when the subject isn't well covered or when there are things I don't agree with, ya know?

    Great stuff.
  8. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Come on now.. ;) . ..there is still lots we do not know about these verses...surely there is something that comes to light and we can get a little more out of it.

    I have studied this subject for a long time trying to figure out what is ....what is the final key turn that unlocks the mystery.
  9. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Another thing just occurred to me....

    Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    after threescore and two weeks By these words you have a separation, a distinction made.

    he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week one week (or seven years). This is the starting point of the 70th seven: when he makes a firm covenant. The pronoun he in verse 27 goes back to its nearest antecedent, which is the prince that shall come in verse 26; the he who makes a covenant in verse 27 is one and the same person, better known in Christian circles as the Antichrist. The prince that shall come, or the Antichrist, will make a firm covenant. He will make it firm; he will make it strong. The starting point of the 70th seven of Daniel, the last seven, is still in the future, and the starting point of the Great Tribulation is the signing of a seven-year covenant.

    Furthermore, it says that the covenant is made with many, not with all but with many.
    I am going out on a limb here and will say that one of the many will be with Israel leaders, who are able to sign covenants into effect. The reason that I say this, is because of the involvement of Jerusalem and the temple sacrifices. The movement to get the temple up and running is so strong, that compromises will be made, so that they can have the opportunity to build their temple. We know everything is in place, just as soon as permission is granted, I believe that they could put a new temple on the mount within three years.

    There is another reason that I give them three and half years to build the temple.

    Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    I think that this verse has a duel effect. The covenant is a commandment to restore and build Jerusalem....as the city of the New World Order, the city that belongs to all the people of the earth and belongs to no country.

    There is one last reason.....

    in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, You never make a covenant with the enemy, and you never show the treasures of the kingdom. We have just got news that there is a cease fire, while Palestine and Israel work out a deal. If this deal includes a trade, for example: We will let you have the mount to build your temple in exchange for the City to be named "The City For All People" and not belonging to any nation....then I would say that the last days will be rapid ones, and what we thought of as future is here.

    He will cause the sacrifices and obligations to cease, because he doesn't need you any more, you have built the temple and now he will come and sit in it as God. In the middle of the 70th seven, that is, after the first three-and-one-half years, the covenant will be broken. When it is broken, he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. There is going to be a forced cessation of the sacrificial system, a point also made in Revelation 11:1-2.

    Now you have the last three and half years of the great tribulation.....The two witnesses will testify to the gentiles what has just occurred. Now the two witnesses will speak with great power, causing plagues when necessary to get the point across, this is which side God is on.

    Following the breakdown of the covenant and the cessation of the sacrificial system, the next line states, upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate. What is the wing of abominations? The word wing refers to the pinnacle of the Temple, and it is a Hebrew word that means “an overspreading influence.” It specifically refers to the worship of the Antichrist, when the Antichrist declares himself to be the one true god (II Thess. 2:3-4). The word abomination in Hebrew refers to an image or idol, meaning that an image or idol of the Antichrist will be set up in the Temple compound on the pinnacle of the Temple itself. This is also spoken of in Daniel 12:11 and Matthew 24:15, with the image itself seen in Revelation 13:14-15.

    Upon the wing of abominations, upon the overspreading influence of idol worship shall come one that maketh desolate. The one that maketh desolate is the Antichrist, who will cause desolations to fall upon the Jewish people.

    The verse then states even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate. The phrase even unto the full end is translated from the Hebrew word that means “to finish or complete.” To the end, to the finish, to the completion of the 70th seven these things, these desolations, are determined. The word determined means to be decreed beforehand, because the events spelled out in Daniel 9:27 were already prophesied and decreed long before the Tribulation as seen in Isaiah 10:23 and 28:22. The phrase also means that the Tribulation will not go a single day beyond its predetermined duration. The same point is made in Matthew 24:22, where we read, And except those days be shortened, or more literally, “except those days had been cut short,” no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

    That determined...ask yourself what is God trying to accomplish, by allowing this to get this far between the two groups? What is this type of "almost be able to experience what both groups have wanted for so long only to take it all away" experience good for? A last walk up call, that God never wanted either party to think this is the pinnacle of their faith?

    shall wrath be poured out upon the desolateOnce you have it all said and done, and those two groups still wish fight it out among themselves, the blood will be as high as the horse's bridle, and the plagues will fall upon the desolate, those who have gone too far away from God that they know Him not, and are so caught up in "their" defense of their faith, they missed the boat.
  10. Beth-el girl

    Beth-el girl Member

    I just read through you're posts. I am very interested. I am not that studied on it. But I always thought Daniel was speaking of the end times. I'll have to reread your posts. I've got a sick kid home today so I don't know how much study I can do.
  11. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

    Once more, you cover the subject well. I am not well versed enough in these particular prophecies to offer all that much. You said:
    There are a couple of things that are worthy of comment.
    Two witnesses are required under the law to substantiate a transgression of Torah. In this verse "they will prophecy" can mean that they will simply be quoting scripture, reminding G-d of His word as it relates to the condition of the world.
    The commission of the saints is to witness to Yeshua (pray). I tend to think that in Revelation, the two witnesses are witnessing to the Throne against the evil one and ALL of his supporters. They are in fact bringing charges against the world. The list of offences are so lengthy that it will take two and a half YEARS to properly bring them all. That is why they are protected until their commission is complete. Then, when they are murdered, they are allowed the same defense before the Throne as Yeshua. They will be found righteous and restored to life; death having no power over the true children of the Father.
  12. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    It is like Elijah before the Baal priests, and Moses before the Pharoah, all the other gods powers and lies are laid before the people for what charlatans they really are.

    Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.1 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy2: and have power over waters to turn them to blood3, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will4. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

    The no rain during the days of their prophecy is made famous by the words of Moses as he looked at the promised land and later by work of Elijah.

    For Moses read Deut chapter 11....the whole chapter is full of prophectic meaning very meaningful for today. If we were to start a message campaign to Sharon....and stress to him the importance of verses 22-25, for him to put the words of God before him, because today's decisions, will predict tomorrows outcome.

    16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them; 17 And then the LORD's wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you. 18 Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand, that they may be as frontlets between your eyes. 19 And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 20 And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates: 21 That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth. 22 For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him; 23 Then will the LORD drive out all these nations from before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves. 24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be. 25 There shall no man be able to stand before you: for the LORD your God shall lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land that ye shall tread upon, as he hath said unto you. 26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

    Then read 1 Kings chapter 8 when Solomon prayed....

    1 Kings 8:1 Then Solomon assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto king Solomon in Jerusalem, that they might bring up the ark of the covenant of the LORD out of the city of David, which is Zion. 2 And all the men of Israel assembled themselves unto king Solomon at the feast in the month Ethanim, which is the seventh month. ..... 10 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, ....12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness. ...22And Solomon stood before the altar of the LORD in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven: 23 And he said, LORD God of Israel, there is no God like thee, in heaven above, or on earth beneath, who keepest covenant and mercy with thy servants that walk before thee with all their heart: ....35When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou afflictest them: 36 Then hear thou in heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, that thou teach them the good way wherein they should walk, and give rain upon thy land, which thou hast given to thy people for an inheritance. 37 If there be in the land famine, if there be pestilence, blasting, mildew, locust, or if there be caterpiller; if their enemy besiege them in the land of their cities; whatsoever plague, whatsoever sickness there be; 38 What prayer and supplication soever be made by any man, or by all thy people Israel, which shall know every man the plague of his own heart, and spread forth his hands toward this house: 39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;) 40 That they may fear thee all the days that they live in the land which thou gavest unto our fathers. 41 Moreover concerning a stranger, that is not of thy people Israel, but cometh out of a far country for thy name's sake; 42 (For they shall hear of thy great name, and of thy strong hand, and of thy stretched out arm;) when he shall come and pray toward this house; 43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and do according to all that the stranger calleth to thee for: that all people of the earth may know thy name, to fear thee, as do thy people Israel; and that they may know that this house, which I have builded, is called by thy name.

    2 Chronicles 7:12 And the LORD appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice. 13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; 14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

    Then we have a micro fulfillment with Elijah...

    1 Kings 17:1 And Elijah the Tishbite, who was of the inhabitants of Gilead, said unto Ahab, As the LORD God of Israel liveth, before whom I stand, there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.

    Think of it this way, Isaiah and Yeshua both talked about laboring in the vineyard.

    Isaiah 5:5 now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: 6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. 7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

    Matthew 21:33
    Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

    Is not the Ezekiel vision of the temple, the design that the temple planners and builders are going to use for the next temple? Do we now in this generation consider ourselves closer to being able to live to 100 years old?

    Jeremiah 3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness. 3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

    Zechariah 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
  13. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

    It is interesting that you used Isaiah 5 for your illustration. This was widely accepted in rabbinical teaching to be a condemnation of the priesthood. That is what Yeshua was refering to when he quoted Isaiah 5 in the parable of the vinyard, the tenents and the Son of the Owner. The priests that confronted Him had asked, "by what authority do you teach?" This was a partial answer to that question. He cited scripture as His authority. He was bringing charges even then. And still He sought them to repent and be forgiven. What we are talking about here in Revelation is the last chance to repent before His return.
  14. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    Just as the books are opened on the Feast of Trumpets and will be closed on the Day of Atonement, so also will the seven seals, and the seven trumpets of Revelation, hit s like a bolt of lightening, of how sinful each of the seven deadly sins are.

    Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
    19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

    And if you counted the "things" in the verses above, you will only come to six.....the seventh has to do with adultery which you will find if you read the rest of Prov chapter 6. I believe that this is God's way of elaborating on the importance of keeping the commandments ...especially I beleive at this time God is pointing to the first four, and the fact that He is a jealous God......We can not have the covenant broken so that another can sit on the throne of God, not even on earth, without incurring God's wrath.

    and the warning to stay away from strange women and their flattering tongue.... it ties into the whore of Revelation who does seduce the men of this world.

    Leviticus 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

    Leviticus 26:21
    And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter


    Interesting- There is a contrast here, between Dan 9:27 [causing the sacrifice to cease] and Dan 8:11, where, in the English, it speaks of one 'taking away the daily sacrifice", but in reality, in the Hebrew, the word translated as 'taking away" actually means "causes to ascend; rise up"- i.e., in the Hebrew, 8:11 is actually saying the very opposite of what it does in English- the one spoken of in 8:11 is actually instituting the daily sacrifice.
  16. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    [pong] bump[/pong]
  17. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

    For Daniel 8:11, the Hebrew literally reads:

    It (prep 'ad) became great itself to be (prep 'ad) with the Captain of the hosts (in sense of army); and it took up the continual/perpetual from him, and the place of his sanctuary/holy place was thrown.

    Let us note the phrase "took up", means "cause to ascend/rise up". The word in question is Ruwm. In this passage the word is in the Hiphil form, which indicates meanings such as: to raise, lift, take up and remove. So the NASB correctly translated it "removed". When the Greeks translated the OT into Greek they use the Greek word for "disturb" (in the sense of discontinuation).

    The Greek word for "disturbed: in Daniel 8:11 is

    διαταραγμένος (diataragmenos) - to interrput/discontinue

    So how should we understand this verse to mean...."he" [kjv] or "great itself" is the one who takes away or discontinues the daily sacrifice and the holy place was thrown or cast down....

    IF the earthly sanctuary services start up again, and people look to it for salvation, does that replace the heavenly sanctuary service by virtue of lack of prayers coming to the courts of heaven?

    12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.

    Instead of looking up for our redemption, we look towards the new jerusalem temple. If HaSatan can stop people from praying for repentance, there is no need for the daily sacrifice and its service. If HaSatan can get people to not look to Yeshua, for one reason or another, then there is no need for Yeshua to perform the daily sacrifice priestly service. Maybe they believe HaSatan to be Yeshua.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    HaSatan will be doing a great imitation of the second coming of Yeshau before the real Yeshua returns and if they believe HaSatan to be Yeshua then you will have no more requests for forgiveness, no more repentance and therefore no more need for the heavenly daily services. Let’s say the world no longer repents for they now believe it is no longer necessary because they live under His Grace or some other deceptive lie fostered by some institution that they have trusted to be keepers of the truth. These keepers of the truth have taken upon themselves to lead the people away from the truth as it is found in Yeshua.

    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

    With a false concept of justification, faith, sanctification and grace, people under a great deception will unwittingly, unknowingly be serving another god. As we get into the ministry in the Holy Place and the Most Holy, you will see how the heavenly daily sacrifice can be stopped.