Is the second coming of Christ near?

[ViaCrucis]

Then we have to agree to disagree. This sinful and broken world is not the kingdom.

Of course it's not. Nobody said it was.

You're talking about Christ the head of the church in heaven, I'm telling you the Church as the body of Christ on earth. Yes, Christ has received power and kingdom in heaven, but we haven't. As long as we recite the Lord's prayer, "your kingdom come, your will be done," we haven't. I do not assume, I read the same bible you read, and this one at least tells me that we're still in the church age:

Yes. I am talking about Christ the head of the Church in heaven. And we do pray "Your kingdom come, Your will be done", and that kingdom shall arrive in fullness when Christ returns. But that isn't a temporary kingdom located in the Levant for only a measely thousand years, that's the ever-lasting, never-ceasing kingdom. And through the Church that kingdom is advancing, as Christ the King is proclaimed day and night.

"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Rev. 6:10

Is Jesus not our passover lamb? (1 Cor. 5:7)

He most certainly is.

Is the church not born of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost? (Acts 2:1-4)

We often speak of Pentecost as the Church's birthday, though we ought to recall that Christ Himself said in Matthew 16, "I will build My Church", but with the pouring out of the Spirit on Pentecost the work and mission was inaugurated.

Is his return not signaled by the trumpet blast? (Matt. 24:31, 1 Thess. 4:16)

It is. When He returns, it will be loud, unmistakable, and obvious.

Be honest to God and to your denomination, brother, did I make these up, or are they written in the Scripture? All I did was pointing to the OT origins of these texts.

Using the feast days to attempt to create an outline of what is to come has no basis in Scripture. That's the issue I've taken.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

To quote Dr. Luther, "We believe the Scriptures for Christ's sake, we do not believe in Christ for the Scripture's sake."

And to quote Someone that matters, "You search the Scriptures because in them you believe you have eternal life, it is these which bear witness to Me." - John 5:39

The Bible is about Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

I believe the Scriptures for Christ's sake as well, but WHICH Christ? There're a lot of many false ones, including socialist christ, homosexual christ, self-help guru christ. I don't wanna believe in Christ for the Scripture's sake, but the reality is, I can only know the real Christ through the Scripture. I don't want any of those false christs, I want the real Christ, the Messiah set up way back in the OT, from the very beginning.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I believe the Scriptures for Christ's sake as well, but WHICH Christ? There're a lot of many false ones, including socialist christ, homosexual christ, self-help guru christ. I don't wanna believe in Christ for the Scripture's sake, but the reality is, I can only know the real Christ through the Scripture. I don't want any of those false christs, I want the real Christ, the Messiah set up way back in the OT, from the very beginning.

The Scriptures, therefore, bear witness to Him.

Likewise, I don't want a false Christ--a homophobic Christ, a xenophobic Christ, or a capitalist Christ.

That's why Luther argued and proclaimed loudly that we must go Ad Fontes, to the Source. But we must always remember that it is Christ who is in the Scriptures. Thus we must always understand that Christ holds up the whole foundation.

All of the historical solas of the Reformation point to the sola that is above every other sola: Solus Christus, Christ Alone. Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, and Sola Deo Gloria are all extensions of this one central sola, Christ Alone.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Using the feast days to attempt to create an outline of what is to come has no basis in Scripture. That's the issue I've taken.

-CryptoLutheran

That's because prophecy is rarely taught in any church, no pastor wanna touch it and no parishoner wanna hear about it. Also, most Christians have a negative attitude toward the OT, as it's often rendered primitive and obsolete, even though Jesus came not to abolish, but to fulfill the Torah.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

The Scriptures, therefore, bear witness to Him.

Likewise, I don't want a false Christ--a homophobic Christ, a xenophobic Christ, or a capitalist Christ.

That's why Luther argued and proclaimed loudly that we must go Ad Fontes, to the Source. But we must always remember that it is Christ who is in the Scriptures. Thus we must always understand that Christ holds up the whole foundation.

All of the historical solas of the Reformation point to the sola that is above every other sola: Solus Christus, Christ Alone. Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, and Sola Deo Gloria are all extensions of this one central sola, Christ Alone.

-CryptoLutheran

I respect Luther with all my heart, but none of these slogans enlighten me on how to tell the true Christ from the false ones. Instead, this key passage from the Torah did:

The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, according to all you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’“And the Lord said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:17-22)

And also, there were those Bereans who scrutinized Paul's teaching through the lens of the Scripture, and their Scripture was the OT, not the NT which didn't exist yet, they seemed to believe in Christ for Scripture's sake, so forgive me for following their good example.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Yes. I am talking about Christ the head of the Church in heaven. And we do pray "Your kingdom come, Your will be done", and that kingdom shall arrive in fullness when Christ returns. But that isn't a temporary kingdom located in the Levant for only a measely thousand years, that's the ever-lasting, never-ceasing kingdom. And through the Church that kingdom is advancing, as Christ the King is proclaimed day and night.

In my church, according to pastor Brandon, there are still some bad apples to weed out at the end of the millennium, known as the Satanic Rebellion in Rev. 20:7-11. And just to clarify, that isn't any doctrine you appear to abhor, but merely a literaly reading and understanding of that passage. After that is the new heaven and the new earth, that's the eternal kingdom.

 

[ViaCrucis]

That's because prophecy is rarely taught in any church, no pastor wanna touch it and no parishoner wanna hear about it. Also, most Christians have a negative attitude toward the OT, as it's often rendered primitive and obsolete, even though Jesus came not to abolish, but to fulfill the Torah.

I won't pretend to speak for any other tradition or denomination, but in the Lutheran tradition we don't believe in engaging in speculations concerning things we cannot know. Where the word speaks, we speak, where it is silent, we believe we should be silent too.

The focus on "prophecy" in modern American Christianity is phenomenon that arose chiefly out of the religious movements of the 19th and 20th centuries. Prophetic fervor was strong in 19th century America, and to a lesser extent, also the British Isles (in the case of John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren). We see this in movements such as the Millerites, which spawned the various Adventist groups, out of which also arose the Jehovah's Witnesses as Charles Russel had been a member of a First Day Adventist group (which is why JW's meet on Sunday, in contrast with Seventh Day Adventists who are Sabbatarians). Even the Mormons, at first, were part of this apocalyptic obsession, with Smith claiming the second coming was any day. Then when Darby's doctrines of Dispensationalism crossed the Atlantic and were spread by people like Dwight Moody, it became increasingly popular in some Fundamentalist and later Evangelical circles, especially as seminaries emerged that trained clergy in the Dispensationalist hermeneutic and eschatological system.

There had been, of course, movements throughout history that became obsessive over prophecy and apocalyptic expectation prior. Among some of the Radicals of the 16th century there were Anabaptist groups that taught the end was nigh, or that their group would usher in the kingdom on earth (for example the Zwickau Prophets and Munster Rebellion). Before that, we can see the extreme wing of the Hussite movement, the Taborites, who were also apocalypticists. During the middle ages a number of movements arose wherein charismatic preachers gained followings, and the end of the world was perceived to be just around the corner.

Going back further to late antiquity, St. Augustine of Hippo was compelled to write The City of God in response to the sacking of Rome by the Vandals in order to clearly teach that the kingdoms of men (e.g. Rome) are not God's kingdom. That the fall of the Roman empire (which many had believed marked the end of the world) was not the end, it was just one human power falling. The City of God, God's kingdom, does not depend on human rulers in positions of temporal authority.

Teaching "prophecy" when done wrongly leads to false teaching, endless speculations, and drives men away from faith and hope in Christ.

The proper teaching of prophecy is to understand that the ancient Prophets of Israel looked forward to Christ, and to the promises of God fulfilled in Him, and to the ultimate victory of God.

But today we have teachers claiming that 1948 marked a special prophetic moment in modern history because of a UN decision to carve up a piece of land in the Levant for both Palestinians and Jews to live; which got messy and violent rather quickly, and which has seen no resolution to that violence even 75 years later. This leads to all manner of weird obsessions over the modern State of Israel, and has even influenced American domestic and international politics in bizarre ways.

All manner of false teachers, heretics, and false prophets using "prophecy" as an excuse to make up any claim they want. Coming up with any wild interpretation of the Bible they can imagine. Sometimes going so far as to claim that God Himself personally taught them or revealed this knowledge to them.

Apocalypticism, Enthusiasm, Pietism, and Moralism have became a quartet of error that has laid siege against the Household of Faith in these modern times; holding God's people hostage and shutting their ears to hear the word of God in truth. And so, contrary to the teaching of St. Paul to St. Timothy to "straight-cut the word of truth" as a teacher and preacher of the word, pastors who have been improperly trained or have no training whatsoever are out here saying anything and everything. And error breeds error, heresy gives way to heresy.

My church does, in fact, teach prophecy. That is to say, the Prophets are read in the churches, all the time. But we teach as the Scriptures teach and call us to teach: That Christ is the Subject of their ancient ministry. We do not look at newspaper articles, or sensationalistic headlines, or to the politics of sinful men to define and determine the meaning of the Scriptures. The Scriptures stand holy and true on their own: And they teach and preach and proclaim the One Eternal and Incarnate Logos: Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

In my church, according to pastor Brandon, there are still some bad apples to weed out at the end of the millennium, known as the Satanic Rebellion in Rev. 20:7-11. And just to clarify, that isn't any doctrine you appear to abhor, but merely a literaly reading and understanding of that passage. After that is the new heaven and the new earth, that's the eternal kingdom.

You'd be right that I don't read the Apocalypse of St. John literally. Or, more accurately, I don't interpret the visions he received literally. John literally received visions, and he literally wrote to the seven literal churches in the province of Asia--the intended audience of the text. But the visions are apocalyptic visions. The thesis of the text is not the end of the world, but "the revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show to His servants about what must shortly come to pass" (Revelation 1:1) and "Write these things which you see, which are, and which will be, and which will be hereafter." (Revelation 1:19).

The visions are focused on Jesus Christ, the One who has victory over death and hell by His resurrection, the Lamb who alone is worthy to open the scroll. For His servants, though suffering in these present times under oppression and the injustice of wicked powers, and dying and suffering a martyr's death, shall be vindicated by Christ. In spite of all troubles and tribulations which the Faithful might endure, Christ will keep them and hold them--therefore endure patiently till the end, remain faithful to Jesus even when things are at the worst. Even as a blood-thirsty empire intoxicates herself on the blood of holy martyrs, and a dragon rages among the nations, it is ultimately only temporary. The devil's rage is only because he knows his time is limited, his doom is absolutely certain and he knows this--so endure the rage of men and devils, God shall win the Day, He already has won the Day--Christ is risen. Christ is risen, and He is seated on the Throne with the scepter of righteousness, and He will come again as Judge, treading the winepress of God's wrath. And all the wickedness of this present age shall come to ruin, every wicked machination and plot of evil men will amount to nothing. The devil's schemes and wiles shall be utterly for nothing--worthless in every endeavor. Only what God has done, through Jesus Christ, for us and indeed for the whole world will last and will matter. The Day is coming when every wicked thing will be exposed to the light, every power and principality and worldly dominion shall fail--crumbling to dust before the Lord Almighty. His kingdom alone shall endure, every kingdom of man shall fall, His will be everlasting; the kingdoms of this world shall cease and become the kingdom our Lord and His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever, Age without end. Creation itself shall be set free from the bondage of futility by its enslavement to death, and be made new at long last.

That's the message of the Apocalypse. It was written to the churches in Asia, during the reign of Caesar Domitian sometime in the mid-90's AD, because as we see those churches were experiencing troubles of various kinds--even in Laodicea, who are chastised for their prosperity and ease, their trial and trouble was their comfort and boasting of their comfort, even as their brothers and sisters elsewhere suffered--that is why Christ says to them, "Buy from Me gold refined in fire" and "I stand at the door and knock".

That message to Laodicea is pertinent even to us today--living in our comfortable ease, calling ourselves rich because as Christians living in the affluent West we have grown comfortable having power, control, wealth, and comfort--even as our brothers and sisters struggle and suffer. We have often lost sight of our first love, our true love, Christ, having chased after other gods and other loves--money, politics, power, ourselves--and we have failed to treat our neighbor with love, we have failed to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty.

Judgment, said St. Peter, will be found first in the Household of God, the Church (1 Peter 4:17); when Jesus talks about Judgment in Matthew 25 both those on His right and left claim Him as Lord--but it isn't saying "Lord, Lord, look at all the works we did for you, all the times we prophesied in your name" (Matthew 7:21-23).

The Church that moralizes, that boasts of her success and excess, who prides herself in affluence, in power, in prosperity, that believes herself without need of repentance--who refuses to hear the Law of God which condemns sin, and refuses to hear the Gospel which forgives all sin freely for Christ's sake--is a Church that dies apart from Christ, "Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5). A Church that speaks of glory but not the cross, of commandments but not of repentance or forgiveness, of moral deeds but not of faith, is a "church" marching straight into the maw of hell. For did Christ not say to Pharisees, "The tax collectors and prostitutes are entering the kingdom ahead of you"? He did. Did not Christ teach that two men went to the Temple, the first a "righteous" Pharisee and the second an "unfrighteous" tax collector, and did He not tell us that it was the tax-collector, who beat his breast, gazed downward to the earth, pleading, "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner" who was found righteous that day? Did He not knock over the money-changer's tables, and drive out the livestock kept for sacrifice out of the Temple, and rebuked them all saying, "You have made a house of prayer into a den of thieves!"?

The Apocalypse of St. John offers much for us, to call us ever and always to look Christ-ward, in faith, in hope, and yes, in repentance. For Christ does reign, and because He reigns, He will judge. The Faithful are vindicated for Christ's sake, but the wicked and the faithless are condemned because of their sin. And so they cry out to the mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb!" (Revelation 6:15). But the Revelator writes later, "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates." (Revelation 22:14).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I won't pretend to speak for any other tradition or denomination, but in the Lutheran tradition we don't believe in engaging in speculations concerning things we cannot know. Where the word speaks, we speak, where it is silent, we believe we should be silent too.

Prophecy is not limited to fortune telling about the future as most people think it is, it provides a biblical lens, through which you can view past and current event - not future events - from a spiritual perspective. Without this spiritual perspective, you are spiritually blind, you would have no idea what's really going on and what to expect in at least near future. That's anything but "speculation". The alternative to "speculation" is not burying your head in the sand.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

My church does, in fact, teach prophecy. That is to say, the Prophets are read in the churches, all the time. But we teach as the Scriptures teach and call us to teach: That Christ is the Subject of their ancient ministry. We do not look at newspaper articles, or sensationalistic headlines, or to the politics of sinful men to define and determine the meaning of the Scriptures. The Scriptures stand holy and true on their own: And they teach and preach and proclaim the One Eternal and Incarnate Logos: Jesus Christ, the Word of God.

The interpretation and the APPLICATION of the Scripture go hand in hand, but unfortunately, many Christians don't know the difference. As I said, the purpose of prophecy is not about predicting the future, but discerning the past and the present. You don't use newspaper articles to interpret the Scripture, you use the Scripture to interpret the news articles, that's the APPLICATION of the Scripture, in other words, bearing testimony of Christ. This testimony varies from person to person, from time to time, from circumstance to circumstance, but they all point to Jesus Christ, the eternal Word of God, as you said.

 

[Antonio39]

yes brother check this out, this is the fufilment100% of rev.12:1-3; Seriously go on stellarium, and type in "child", it is the name of an asteroid in the belly of the constellation Virgo (Rev.12:1-3; Gen.1:14; cp. Job.38:32); then click the days as the child comes out the womb; (SEP.15-19). then you will see the moon at her feet and the sun on her head, and she has 12 little Virginians around her head, IN FUFILLMENT OF (Rev.12:1-3); then click united nations; it's an asteroid at the womb, its the 7 headed dragon with the ten horns. that wants to devour the child. this happens at the same time as trumpets and the UN 2030 agenda 7-year treaty held on the 19th in NY (Dan.12:27) CAN'T MAKE THIS UP

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

yes brother check this out, this is the fufilment100% of rev.12:1-3; Seriously go on stellarium, and type in "child", it is the name of an asteroid in the belly of the constellation Virgo (Rev.12:1-3; Gen.1:14; cp. Job.38:32); then click the days as the child comes out the womb; (SEP.15-19). then you will see the moon at her feet and the sun on her head, and she has 12 little Virginians around her head, IN FUFILLMENT OF (Rev.12:1-3); then click united nations; it's an asteroid at the womb, its the 7 headed dragon with the ten horns. that wants to devour the child. this happens at the same time as trumpets and the UN 2030 agenda 7-year treaty held on the 19th in NY (Dan.12:27) CAN'T MAKE THIS UPView attachment 335827

This is why brother ViaCrucis warned about wild speculation.

 

[Antonio39]

Paul quotes Isa.26:19; cp.Eph.5:14; in the context of the manchild and his coming to rescue those who believe, and judge the world.Isa.26:17-21;66:7-8) Rev.12:1-3 is prophetic, we can see the sign with our eyes praise God, its crunch time the kingdom of heaven is at hand litterly 1000%

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The generation that sees the return of Israel to her homeland will not pass before all things (including Christ’s return) shall come to pass.

• Matthew 24:34
• Mark 13:30
• Luke 21:32

None of those verses says anything about Israel returning to his/her homeland.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

None of those verses says anything about Israel returning to his/her homeland.

None of those verses says "this generation" must be the disciples either. In fact, most of them were likely to be martyred already by the time of 70AD, which means they had perished. If you follow the fig tree symbolism, then the disciple's generation is the cursed fig tree that withered away in Matt. 21:18-22.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

None of those verses says "this generation" must be the disciples either. In fact, most of them were likely to be martyred already by the time of 70AD, which means they had perished. If you follow the fig tree symbolism, then the disciple's generation is the cursed fig tree that withered away in Matt. 21:18-22.

Agreed about the Apostles, most may have been dead before 70 AD.

 

[BobRyan]

You'd be right that I don't read the Apocalypse of St. John literally. Or, more accurately, I don't interpret the visions he received literally. John literally received visions, and he literally wrote to the seven literal churches in the province of Asia-- ....The thesis of the text is not the end of the world,

It is pretty hard to read Rev 6, Rev 14, Rev 19,20,21,22 and keep saying that the book of Revelation does not very clear messages pertaining to th end of the world, the 1000 years and the new Jerusalem at the end of the 1000 years as well as the destruction of the entire world by fire in Rev 20 and Rev 21.

 

[Sorn]

Christianity was widely recognized as a SECT of Judaism at that time, namely, "the Way". In this case I can also say that they were proselytes converted from Judaism to Christianity, it's all just a name game, it doesn't mean anything.

From Gods pov, someone who practices Judaism as their religion is a Jew, regardless of where they are born. A gentile is someone whose religion is not Judaism. Everyone at Jerusalem for the passover festival was a practicing Jew.
At the conversion of Saul, God officially bypassed Judasim and offered salvation directly to the gentiles, ie anyone not having Judaism as their religion.

 

[JohnD70X7]

None of those verses says anything about Israel returning to his/her homeland.

The restored fig tree prophetically refers to Israel (Hosea 9:10).

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

From Gods pov, someone who practices Judaism as their religion is a Jew, regardless of where they are born. A gentile is someone whose religion is not Judaism. Everyone at Jerusalem for the passover festival was a practicing Jew.
At the conversion of Saul, God officially bypassed Judasim and offered salvation directly to the gentiles, ie anyone not having Judaism as their religion.

Not really, a Jew must be circumcised at the 8th day, keeping kosher diet (no pork or hsellfish) and resting on Sabbath. I doubt every pilgrim at Jerusalem met these criteria.