It is not possible to take all of the creation account in Genesis literally.

[miamited]

Hi halbhh,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:

Hi Ted, here I've isolated a section where you make an assumption, and it's worth your while to reexamine. See the Tree of Life was in the Garden, and before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they were not yet ejected and still had the Tree of Life with them there in the Garden.

You'll get no argument from me that the tree of life was in the garden. You'll get no argument that God did place an angel before the tree of life to prevent anyone from getting to it when he closed the gates of Eden. None whatsoever. Where I will challenge you for proof is this idea that just because they had access to the tree of life, years on the earth weren't accounted to man.

Keep in mind also that, as far as we can tell from the Scriptures, when Adam and Eve were put out of the garden they were still the only two people on the earth. We even read that it was after the fall that Adam named his wife Eve because she would become the mother of all the living. Further, we read after the fall:

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

All singular pronouns in God's sending Adam out of the garden. So, even though God had given Adam and Eve the command to be fruitful and multiply, according to all Scriptural evidence that hadn't happened yet.

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

This command is written in the very first introduction to us of God's creating Adam and Eve. So, as the account seems to chronologically work out. God created Adam and Eve and as soon as they were both created God gave them their instructions on what they could eat and commanded that they go forth and multiply. You're saying, ok, then there was some fairly great span of time counted in something other than years, before Adam and Eve sinned, and then they went out and multiplied. Sorry, I don't buy that explanation.

I think that God created Adam and Eve and gave them their commands, and even before they had a chance to conceive their first child together, Satan tempted Eve and she and Adam sinned and they were booted out of the garden. What ever 'short' period of time that was, was also accounted in Adam's years of life.

So, hopefully you will see that my understanding is actually based on more of the actual account, than just your assumption that when they were in the presence of the tree of life, you think that their years didn't count. If you do 'know' that their years of life didn't count while they were in the presence of the tree of life, I'd like to see what Scriptural evidence you are basing that on.

As I said, I believe that Satan, pretty much as soon as God created this realm in which man could live and knowing God's purpose for them, he was angered and upset with what God was doing from the very beginning of this realm and likely didn't waste much time slithering up to that tree and telling Eve how wise she was going to be if she did eat the fruit. And Eve looked at the fruit and it was pleasing to her eye. If Eve had been living around that tree for 100 years, she would have long since seen that the fruit was pleasing to her eye.

Oh, and just another assumption on my part. Since the Scriptures do tell us that Jesus being the atonement for our sin was known before the foundations of the world were established. Why would we think that Adam and Eve lived some long idyllic life in the garden of uncounted years before the Genesis account actually began to unfold?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

It also suggests Paul was wrong about the OT laws not being applicable anymore. You sure that's where you want to go?

Hi queller,

I'm not sure that Paul ever said that the OT laws were not applicable anymore as far as their continued existence. What Paul did say is that for those who have believed in Jesus, those people are no longer under the law. They are now under God's grace. The law is still there and the law still stands. Even Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the law, but rather to fulfill it. Paul also said that no one will be saved by observance of the law, which is also pretty much what the OT says. If you read the giving of the law in the Pentateuch, you will not find any promise of eternal life as part of observance of the law.

What the OT law promised was blessings in this life. Good crops, healthy lives, peace and prosperity in this life! There is about a whole paragraph of what the Israelites would gain by observing the law and another whole paragraph of what their disobedience would cost them. In none of that, do we find the promise that God has given us through Jesus. Eternal life! So, what Paul is saying is that yes, the law still stands, but our faith in Jesus removes us from any conviction we might find under the law. For those who have truly believed in Jesus and received that guarantee deposit of God's Spirit, they are no longer going to be judged under the law.

But, I agree with Jesus words, that until heaven and earth pass away, the law will always stand. It's just that those who have believed in Jesus are removed from its condemnation.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Halbhh]

Hi halbhh,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:


You'll get no argument from me that the tree of life was in the garden. You'll get no argument that God did place an angel before the tree of life to prevent anyone from getting to it when he closed the gates of Eden. None whatsoever. Where I will challenge you for proof is this idea that just because they had access to the tree of life, years on the earth weren't accounted to man.

Keep in mind also that, as far as we can tell from the Scriptures, when Adam and Eve were put out of the garden they were still the only two people on the earth. We even read that it was after the fall that Adam named his wife Eve because she would become the mother of all the living. Further, we read after the fall:

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

All singular pronouns in God's sending Adam out of the garden. So, even though God had given Adam and Eve the command to be fruitful and multiply, according to all Scriptural evidence that hadn't happened yet.

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

This command is written in the very first introduction to us of God's creating Adam and Eve. So, as the account seems to chronologically work out. God created Adam and Eve and as soon as they were both created God gave them their instructions on what they could eat and commanded that they go forth and multiply. You're saying, ok, then there was some fairly great span of time counted in something other than years, before Adam and Eve sinned, and then they went out and multiplied. Sorry, I don't buy that explanation.

I think that God created Adam and Eve and gave them their commands, and even before they had a chance to conceive their first child together, Satan tempted Eve and she and Adam sinned and they were booted out of the garden. What ever 'short' period of time that was, was also accounted in Adam's years of life.

So, hopefully you will see that my understanding is actually based on more of the actual account, than just your assumption that when they were in the presence of the tree of life, you think that their years didn't count. If you do 'know' that their years of life didn't count while they were in the presence of the tree of life, I'd like to see what Scriptural evidence you are basing that on.

As I said, I believe that Satan, pretty much as soon as God created this realm in which man could live and knowing God's purpose for them, he was angered and upset with what God was doing from the very beginning of this realm and likely didn't waste much time slithering up to that tree and telling Eve how wise she was going to be if she did eat the fruit. And Eve looked at the fruit and it was pleasing to her eye. If Eve had been living around that tree for 100 years, she would have long since seen that the fruit was pleasing to her eye.

Oh, and just another assumption on my part. Since the Scriptures do tell us that Jesus being the atonement for our sin was known before the foundations of the world were established. Why would we think that Adam and Eve lived some long idyllic life in the garden of uncounted years before the Genesis account actually began to unfold?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Hi halbhh,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:


You'll get no argument from me that the tree of life was in the garden. You'll get no argument that God did place an angel before the tree of life to prevent anyone from getting to it when he closed the gates of Eden. None whatsoever. Where I will challenge you for proof is this idea that just because they had access to the tree of life, years on the earth weren't accounted to man.

Keep in mind also that, as far as we can tell from the Scriptures, when Adam and Eve were put out of the garden they were still the only two people on the earth. We even read that it was after the fall that Adam named his wife Eve because she would become the mother of all the living. Further, we read after the fall:

“The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.

All singular pronouns in God's sending Adam out of the garden. So, even though God had given Adam and Eve the command to be fruitful and multiply, according to all Scriptural evidence that hadn't happened yet.

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it.

This command is written in the very first introduction to us of God's creating Adam and Eve. So, as the account seems to chronologically work out. God created Adam and Eve and as soon as they were both created God gave them their instructions on what they could eat and commanded that they go forth and multiply. You're saying, ok, then there was some fairly great span of time counted in something other than years, before Adam and Eve sinned, and then they went out and multiplied. Sorry, I don't buy that explanation.

I think that God created Adam and Eve and gave them their commands, and even before they had a chance to conceive their first child together, Satan tempted Eve and she and Adam sinned and they were booted out of the garden. What ever 'short' period of time that was, was also accounted in Adam's years of life.

So, hopefully you will see that my understanding is actually based on more of the actual account, than just your assumption that when they were in the presence of the tree of life, you think that their years didn't count. If you do 'know' that their years of life didn't count while they were in the presence of the tree of life, I'd like to see what Scriptural evidence you are basing that on.

As I said, I believe that Satan, pretty much as soon as God created this realm in which man could live and knowing God's purpose for them, he was angered and upset with what God was doing from the very beginning of this realm and likely didn't waste much time slithering up to that tree and telling Eve how wise she was going to be if she did eat the fruit. And Eve looked at the fruit and it was pleasing to her eye. If Eve had been living around that tree for 100 years, she would have long since seen that the fruit was pleasing to her eye.

Oh, and just another assumption on my part. Since the Scriptures do tell us that Jesus being the atonement for our sin was known before the foundations of the world were established. Why would we think that Adam and Eve lived some long idyllic life in the garden of uncounted years before the Genesis account actually began to unfold?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Hi Ted,

I take this more literally than others possibly(?) :

Genesis 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die."

Yup. I take it literally.

It was a change that happened.

They lost access to the ongoing (still exists after they were ejected) Tree of Life.

They entered the world outside the Garden, and then their bodies became subject to death.

Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your bread, until you return to the ground--because out of it were you taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return."

Ouch.

 

[miamited]

Hi Ted,

I take this more literally than others possibly(?) :

Genesis 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die."

Yup. I take it literally.

It was a change that happened.

They lost access to the ongoing (still exists after they were ejected) Tree of Life.

They entered the world outside the Garden, and then their bodies became subject to death.

Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your bread, until you return to the ground--because out of it were you taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return."

Ouch.

Hi halbhh,

Hey, I have nothing against any of your points except that I don't see that any of them address this idea that years didn't count before the fall.

Sure, I also take literally that when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they would die. As I understand that definition of death, it is separated from God. Just as in the final judgment we are warned of the second death. We know that Jesus taught that the life lived by those condemned for sin was eternal and even speaks of those outside of the city, the dogs, I believe it calls them at one point, so the second death doesn't mean that they will cease to physically exist, but that they will then be separated eternally from God, and yes, from eating of the tree of life. But the Scriptures do not teach that they will then physically die in some manner where they will cease to exist.

As to your reference to Genesis 3:19. Yes, man was made from dust even before the fall. Before the fall man wasn't intended to return to the dust and after the fall he was, but I still don't see the connection that this passage explains to me that years didn't account to the life of Adam and Eve before the fall.

I think that we may not be able to come to agreement on this issue. So I'll just express that I disagree with your position and don't find any of the evidence that you have offered so far as supporting your position and understanding of this matter, but you may be right.

I believe that as far as Scriptural support, my position is just as valid as yours. That Satan likely began to work on a plan to bring about the fall of man when it would be easy for him. Before Adam and Eve had really gotten real secure in their trust in God. Before Eve had really had the chance to get particularly familiar with the fruit that God told them not to touch. I may be wrong.

So, what this all boils down to is our separate understanding of the age of this realm of God's creating. I say about 6,000 years, based on the six day creation account and the genealogies from Adam. You say, I'm guessing, 6,000 plus however many years Adam and Eve lived their idyllic life in the garden.

Got it!

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi halbhh,

I would ask you though, how long do you think that Adam and Eve lived this idyllic life in the garden? As I said, one of the issues that some long span of life in the garden brings to my thinking: Why weren't there others with Adam and Eve that God's word tells us were put out of the garden? Is it your position that even though God told Adam and Eve to go forth and multiply pretty much on the day that they were created, they didn't do that for what...a hundred years? A thousand years? A million years?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Halbhh]

Hi halbhh,

Hey, I have nothing against any of your points except that I don't see that any of them address this idea that years didn't count before the fall.

Sure, I also take literally that when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they would die. As I understand that definition of death, it is separated from God. Just as in the final judgment we are warned of the second death. We know that Jesus taught that the life lived by those condemned for sin was eternal and even speaks of those outside of the city, the dogs, I believe it calls them at one point, so the second death doesn't mean that they will cease to physically exist, but that they will then be separated eternally from God, and yes, from eating of the tree of life. But the Scriptures do not teach that they will then physically die in some manner where they will cease to exist.

As to your reference to Genesis 3:19. Yes, man was made from dust even before the fall. Before the fall man wasn't intended to return to the dust and after the fall he was, but I still don't see the connection that this passage explains to me that years didn't account to the life of Adam and Eve before the fall.

I think that we may not be able to come to agreement on this issue. So I'll just express that I disagree with your position and don't find any of the evidence that you have offered so far as supporting your position and understanding of this matter, but you may be right.

I believe that as far as Scriptural support, my position is just as valid as yours. That Satan likely began to work on a plan to bring about the fall of man when it would be easy for him. Before Adam and Eve had really gotten real secure in their trust in God. Before Eve had really had the chance to get particularly familiar with the fruit that God told them not to touch. I may be wrong.

So, what this all boils down to is our separate understanding of the age of this realm of God's creating. I say about 6,000 years, based on the six day creation account and the genealogies from Adam. You say, I'm guessing, 6,000 plus however many years Adam and Eve lived their idyllic life in the garden.

Got it!

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Hi Ted,

Consider though: where did people get an idea that little or not much time passed during the Garden?

Really, it's an extra-biblical idea -- an idea we can think up ourselves from outside of scripture. That's ok to have a theory like that, so long as they remember it's not itself scripture, and don't accidentally imply it is scriptural to someone.

In other words, it's ok for example if someone even thinks the Garden passed in 0 seconds, instantaneously, even, if they wish, just so long as they don't try to claim that's scripture. I don't myself try to claim any certain amount of time passed during the Garden of Eden as being scriptural. I'm saying exactly that we do not know that amount of time from scripture.

There's a lot of things -- including small details of creation also -- which scripture does not say.

Why is that?

I think first, it's because those things truly do not matter, but there's a 2nd reason that seems more important.

Consider for instance, seriously, would it matter just how old the Universe is, even, for God?

How could it, when He is the Creator? Time is not a problem for Him, I'd expect.

About our reasonable guesses, theories, such as yours appears to be that it was...some short period of time like a few years? -- well, that's ok so long as you don't insist it is scripture of course. I don't think it would matter how long Adam and Eve had been with God in the Garden in subjective time, for them to somehow become resistant to breaking faith with Him. One could speculate of course. Like maybe they would at around 20 years of subjective time. But that's only guessing. I'm also just speculating to imagine that possibly time passed inside the Garden in a way that was really timeless in some aspects: that they may not have aged at all. Adam, if you like, may have remained a young man...continuously. Without any aging. That would be one possible effect of the Tree of Life, or one way it might appear. And...meanwhile, who knows how time flowed past outside the Garden compared to that timelessness.... I don't claim this is scripture, but it is consistent to what we do know from scripture, and that does matter. I don't want a theory that disregards the rest of scripture, but instead one that fits the rest of scripture.

Here's a whole different angle: we have learned the sun is mostly hydrogen, and that it runs on nuclear fusion of hydrogen into helium.

Of course scripture doesn't address this -- it is not an important thing to our souls, or our salvation, or our relationship with God.

But there is another reason scripture doesn't address things like this -- exact laws of nature, and details like precise time durations in mere ordinary time....

Here's why: if scripture did say a precise age of Earth, and suppose a lot of time passed during Genesis 1:1, before Gen 1:2, and scripture gave exact time duration in ordinary time, then... once mankind finally advanced enough in science to confirm that precise time, then suddenly even the most hard hearted and arrogant and cynical person could simply see scripture outright proven in an easy obvious way, and turn, and repent, entirely for pure selfishness alone, and then be saved.

But that's not what scripture says that God wants (!) -- to just save anyone no matter their attitude....
In fact, it would directly and explicitly contradict what God wants. He wants faith, and seeking Him, and humility.

Not all will choose to listen, in faith... Not all are willing to trust God, to trust His Words....

9 Then Jesus said, “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”

10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that,

“ ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’ a ”

Mark 4 NIV

and in Matthew:

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’ a

16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

Matthew 13 NIV
-------

God doesn't want people to turn to Him and be saved in arrogant or cynical self-interest.

He wants those that are humble, trusting.

Psalm 138:6; Proverbs 3:34; Proverbs 29:23; Matthew 23:12; Luke 1:52; James 4:6; 1 Peter 5:5


So, therefore, an exact age of the Earth could not be given in scripture. It would have contradicted the message, the reality, that God wants faith from us, not merely understanding and bowing.

 

[danielmears]

The title is a bit overstated. A more tempered, and personal, version would be, "I find it very difficult to believe those who say they take all of the creation account in Genesis literally."

Why do I say that? There are metaphors in the account that cannot be taken literally. And, if they are taken literally, the interpreter runs the risk of missing the true intent of the metaphor. I'll give a couple examples.

1) In Genesis 1, God separates light from darkness. God calls one Day and the other Night. This is the 1st day. And yet, the luminaries of the sky (Sun, moon, and stars) have yet to be created. Now, I ask, "What is a literal day?" A literal day is, at the very least, a twenty four hour period in which the earth rotates on its axis-the sun being that which determines light or dark. One cannot form a literal concept of a day in regards to the first day of creation. In other words, a metaphor has creeped in somewhere. Someone might attempt to explain the separation of light from darkness by saying, "On the first day, God separated right from wrong, good from evil, good angels from fallen angels." Fine. Whatever. I have no problem someone interpreting the metaphor. That's what we are supposed to do with metaphors. But, let's at least be honest and admit it's a metaphor.

2) In Genesis 2:17 we are told of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil." I ask myself, "What kind of tree is that? How do I form a literal conception of that kind of tree?" I challenge anyone reading my words to try, at this moment, to form a literal conception in their minds of such a tree. I contend, without having to try really hard to do so, one cannot form such a conception. Why? Because it is a metaphor. What does that fruit look like in your mind?

Here is the important part. Even if someone were able to take all of the creation account in Genesis literally, it would do them no good. What matters is not affirming its historical reliability. What matters is grasping the spiritual truths being communicated in the account, e.g. God exists, God is Creator, creation is not God, creation is good, humanity is created in the divine image, sin is a killer, humanity is in need of redemption, a promise of redemption has been made, etc.

Believing that something is historically true does not change anything. I believe Billie Holiday is the greatest jazz singer of all time, that doesn't somehow change my life. Arguments over taking the creation account in Genesis literally miss the point (including the argument I am now making). The point is the truths being communicated via the account. And, happily for those of us who accept the account, science can't communicate those truths to us, only the account in Genesis can do that.

Does what I am saying make sense?

The Bible is filled with metaphors and actualities. It is good you do not let things which you do not comprehend affect your faith in the scriptures. I love Genesis because it is important to grasp some concepts from there to understand the rest of scripture. I used some of these points just recently, here..God is Spirit! May God bless us all with greater understanding!

 

[miamited]

Hi halbhh,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:

Consider though: where did people get an idea that little or not much time passed during the Garden?

Really, it's an extra-biblical idea -- an idea we can think up ourselves from outside of scripture. That's ok to have a theory like that, so long as they remember it's not itself scripture, and don't accidentally imply it is scriptural to someone.

Wait a minute! What do you mean that my idea is extra-biblical when I've offered at least as much Scriptural support for my understanding as you have offered for yours. I have asked you over and over again to provide me with your evidence. So far all you've posted are Scriptural references to the tree of life, the garden of Eden, etc, but not a one has made any point that time was accounted one iota different before the fall as after the fall.

I have, on the other hand, provided Scriptural evidence that God commanded that Adam and Eve be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth pretty much on the day that they were created. I have also offered Scriptural reference that apparently by the time that God put Adam and Eve out of the garden, they did not have one child accounted to their generations. That God spoke to Adam and Eve in singular pronouns when putting them out of the garden. So, all the evidence of the Scriptures points to Adam and Eve being the only two human beings living on the earth at the time that God put them out of the garden. My understanding is that this would indicate a fairly short time that Adam and Eve were in the garden or else they likely would have begun a family as per God's instructions to them in the day that they were created.

That's at least as solid a foundation from the Scriptures for my position as your evidence is for yours. I take offense that you somehow place my position as being some 'extra-biblical' understanding when it has at least as much support from the Scriptures, personally I think more, than yours does.

So far, your idea has been as much 'a theory like that, so long as they remember it's not itself scripture'. I didn't ever imply that this understanding of time passing during life in the garden was Scriptural EXCEPT, OF COURSE FOR THE VERY WORDS OF GOD THAT ADAM WAS 130 YEARS OLD WHEN HE BEGAT SETH AND THEN LIVED 930 YEARS. I made the claim that Adam was the age that God tells us that he was at these two marker points. You then came in and said, "Oh well, we can't really say that the earth's age based on the genealogical ages found in the Genesis account is correct because I KNOW THAT I KNOW that the years that Adam and Eve lived in the garden aren't accounted for in the Genesis genealogy. I asked you to prove that to me from the Scriptures and, as far as I can see, you haven't supported you understanding with the Scriptures.

So, yes, I can say with all confidence that Adam was 930 years old when he died because God's word says so!!!!

All you can say is that you don't think Adam was really 930 years old because YOU THINK that the time Adam and Eve lived in the garden with the tree of life wasn't accounted in those years.

Who is it that is using 'extra-biblical' evidence to support a position here?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Halbhh]

Hi halbhh,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:


Wait a minute! What do you mean that my idea is extra-biblical when I've offered at least as much Scriptural support for my understanding as you have offered for yours. I have asked you over and over again to provide me with your evidence. So far all you've posted are Scriptural references to the tree of life, the garden of Eden, etc, but not a one has made any point that time was accounted one iota different before the fall as after the fall.

I have, on the other hand, provided Scriptural evidence that God commanded that Adam and Eve be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth pretty much on the day that they were created. I have also offered Scriptural reference that apparently by the time that God put Adam and Eve out of the garden, they did not have one child accounted to their generations. That God spoke to Adam and Eve in singular pronouns when putting them out of the garden. So, all the evidence of the Scriptures points to Adam and Eve being the only two human beings living on the earth at the time that God put them out of the garden. My understanding is that this would indicate a fairly short time that Adam and Eve were in the garden or else they likely would have begun a family as per God's instructions to them in the day that they were created.

That's at least as solid a foundation from the Scriptures for my position as your evidence is for yours. I take offense that you somehow place my position as being some 'extra-biblical' understanding when it has at least as much support from the Scriptures, personally I think more, than yours does.

So far, your idea has been as much 'a theory like that, so long as they remember it's not itself scripture'. I didn't ever imply that this understanding of time passing during life in the garden was Scriptural EXCEPT, OF COURSE FOR THE VERY WORDS OF GOD THAT ADAM WAS 130 YEARS OLD WHEN HE BEGAT SETH AND THEN LIVED 930 YEARS. I made the claim that Adam was the age that God tells us that he was at these two marker points. You then came in and said, "Oh well, we can't really say that the earth's age based on the genealogical ages found in the Genesis account is correct because I KNOW THAT I KNOW that the years that Adam and Eve lived in the garden aren't accounted for in the Genesis genealogy. I asked you to prove that to me from the Scriptures and, as far as I can see, you haven't supported you understanding with the Scriptures.

So, yes, I can say with all confidence that Adam was 930 years old when he died because God's word says so!!!!

All you can say is that you don't think Adam was really 930 years old because YOU THINK that the time Adam and Eve lived in the garden with the tree of life wasn't accounted in those years.

Who is it that is using 'extra-biblical' evidence to support a position here?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Hi Ted, thanks for your response .

This may not be what you want to hear, but I'm saying, again, that all ideas about time passage on Earth during the time of the Garden are not given in scripture.

Not.

Not my own guesses, nor those of other people.

All the views of how long that time was are using assumptions not given in scripture.

Did you get a chance to read in my post why these kinds of time duration are not given?

It's not for a minor reason, as I laid out above, but because it would profoundly contradict much of the bible.

Yes, Adam was 930 years old. Wonderful and amazing, right?

Please ask me if something I wrote above about the Garden above was unclear. It's based on guesses but is consistent with all of scripture as a whole.

Our God can do the "impossible".

 

[GodLovesCats]

I agree with the actual thread title. If the Creation happened in 6 literal days, people and dinosaurs would have lived together. Science proves that is impossible.

 

[miamited]

Hi halbhh,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:

This may not be what you want to hear, but I'm saying, again, that all ideas about time passage on Earth during the time of the Garden are not given in scripture.

That's exactly what I want to hear. You're agreeing that my position, as far as can be verified in the Scriptures, is just as valid as yours because there is no direct claim regarding the issue in the Scriptures. Other than God's word telling us that Adam was 930 years old when he died, there is no Scriptural support that the days of Adam's life were counted any differently before the fall than after the fall.

Now, that leaves us to interpolate from evidence that is in the Scriptures. From there, we can start.

God commanded that Adam and Eve go forth and multiply and populate the earth pretty much on the day that they were created. To subdue the earth and rule over everything else of the earth. Yet the Scriptural account certainly only mentions Adam and Eve as being on the earth when God closed up Eden.

How long would you 'guess' that Adam and Eve lived before attempting to fulfill God's command to them?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

I agree with the actual thread title. If the Creation happened in 6 literal days, people and dinosaurs would have lived together. Science proves that is impossible.

Hi C4C,

I would posit that it you're only going to believe what science has proved or disproved, then there is a lot that is accounted in the Scriptures that didn't happen.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Halbhh]

Hi halbhh,

Thanks for your response. You wrote:


That's exactly what I want to hear. You're agreeing that my position, as far as can be verified in the Scriptures, is just as valid as yours because there is no direct claim regarding the issue in the Scriptures. Other than God's word telling us that Adam was 930 years old when he died, there is no Scriptural support that the days of Adam's life were counted any differently before the fall than after the fall.

Now, that leaves us to interpolate from evidence that is in the Scriptures. From there, we can start.

God commanded that Adam and Eve go forth and multiply and populate the earth pretty much on the day that they were created. To subdue the earth and rule over everything else of the earth. Yet the Scriptural account certainly only mentions Adam and Eve as being on the earth when God closed up Eden.

How long would you 'guess' that Adam and Eve lived before attempting to fulfill God's command to them?

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Ted, it's an assumption that the genesis day 6 humans included Adam and Eve. Maybe. Or...they may have been a special separate act. The 2nd seems to me to be fitting what's in the text -- Adam and Eve were created in very special, separate, act. To assert its definitely one way or the other is using an assumption not given in scripture in a clear way.

I hope it's not upsetting to realize how many assumptions typically are used by anyone.

I don't really rely on any assumption on this though for my guess about how much time passing during the Garden.

I rely on God doing the miraculous.

 

[miamited]

Hi halbhh,

I thought you were presenting yourself as a strict Scriptural literalist.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day

It certainly seems, in this translation, that God's concluding the sixth day and pronouncing everything that He had made 'very good', came after His own account of how and when He created man. Wouldn't a 'literal view' support that position? I'm honestly not quite clear on how you can categorically claim that the creation of mankind on day six is an 'assumption'. But, be that as it may, I would certainly want to see some Scriptural proof of that position before I could be in complete approval with your statement here. No matter, it all seems to have been completed by the time we get to the seventh day in which God rested and did no work, so I'm not sure I could confirm that God made Adam or Eve on or after the seventh day.

Now, I do completely agree that when we get to Genesis 2, the account does seem to put some time between the creation of Adam from Eve because of God's account that Adam took time to name all of the animals and that out of them no suitable helper was found for Adam, which is what God said just before he brought all the animals for Adam to name. But, it isn't necessarily so. First, we would need to know what God intended when He says that He brought all of the birds and wild animals. I wouldn't think a wild animal would include any of the bugs and possibly not any of the animals that we know as domesticated, but that is only an assumption on my part. But if we're only talking a couple hundred species of birds and wild animals, it's possible that Adam could have named them in a few hours. After all, the account does say that God 'brought' the animals to Adam. It wasn't like he had to go looking for each one to name it, but much like in Noah's day, the various and sundry animals came to stand before Adam to be named.

We would also need to know how many animals and how God classified them as different species. In other words, God brings one wolf to stand before Adam, where today we have two dozen different kinds of wolves, as we name them today. One parrot, and not fifty different varieties of parrots. One hummingbird and not two dozen varieties of hummingbirds. If, the number of birds and animals that the Lord brought before Adam could be named in a few hours, then it really isn't hard to see that by the evening of that same day, God saw that Adam wasn't really attracted romantically to any of them, if that's what God means by saying that no 'suitable' helper was found for Adam. He puts Adam to sleep and within 10 minutes takes out one of Adam's ribs and fashions the body of a woman around it and voile', we have Adam and Eve and all the animals named in a single day!

So, with a little imagining, we can produce a plausible scenario whereby God could have fashioned Adam from the dust of the ground; set him down to name a couple of hundred animals that just immediately appeared before him; put Adam to sleep and made Eve from his rib. None of this understanding of how the day actually passed is Scriptural, but the Scriptures are fairly clear that it was all finished, as far as the creation of both Adam and Eve by the end of the sixth day when God declared all that He had created 'very good'.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again halbhh,

You also responded:

I hope it's not upsetting to realize how many assumptions typically are used by anyone.

No. Not at all. I understand that we all use assumptions. But, we need to recognize that in our own understanding. What we understand because God's word does actually say something or what we understand because we are trying to figure out 'how' something came to pass.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Halbhh]

Ted, I do have a literal interpreting for Genesis 1 through 3. You've written a long post. Now I need to know whether you've fully read all of post 126, every part. It has the key things.

Hi halbhh,

I thought you were presenting yourself as a strict Scriptural literalist.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day

It certainly seems, in this translation, that God's concluding the sixth day and pronouncing everything that He had made 'very good', came after His own account of how and when He created man. Wouldn't a 'literal view' support that position? I'm honestly not quite clear on how you can categorically claim that the creation of mankind on day six is an 'assumption'. But, be that as it may, I would certainly want to see some Scriptural proof of that position before I could be in complete approval with your statement here. No matter, it all seems to have been completed by the time we get to the seventh day in which God rested and did no work, so I'm not sure I could confirm that God made Adam or Eve on or after the seventh day.

Now, I do completely agree that when we get to Genesis 2, the account does seem to put some time between the creation of Adam from Eve because of God's account that Adam took time to name all of the animals and that out of them no suitable helper was found for Adam, which is what God said just before he brought all the animals for Adam to name. But, it isn't necessarily so. First, we would need to know what God intended when He says that He brought all of the birds and wild animals. I wouldn't think a wild animal would include any of the bugs and possibly not any of the animals that we know as domesticated, but that is only an assumption on my part. But if we're only talking a couple hundred species of birds and wild animals, it's possible that Adam could have named them in a few hours. After all, the account does say that God 'brought' the animals to Adam. It wasn't like he had to go looking for each one to name it, but much like in Noah's day, the various and sundry animals came to stand before Adam to be named.

We would also need to know how many animals and how God classified them as different species. In other words, God brings one wolf to stand before Adam, where today we have two dozen different kinds of wolves, as we name them today. One parrot, and not fifty different varieties of parrots. One hummingbird and not two dozen varieties of hummingbirds. If, the number of birds and animals that the Lord brought before Adam could be named in a few hours, then it really isn't hard to see that by the evening of that same day, God saw that Adam wasn't really attracted romantically to any of them, if that's what God means by saying that no 'suitable' helper was found for Adam. He puts Adam to sleep and within 10 minutes takes out one of Adam's ribs and fashions the body of a woman around it and voile', we have Adam and Eve and all the animals named in a single day!

So, with a little imagining, we can produce a plausible scenario whereby God could have fashioned Adam from the dust of the ground; set him down to name a couple of hundred animals that just immediately appeared before him; put Adam to sleep and made Eve from his rib. None of this understanding of how the day actually passed is Scriptural, but the Scriptures are fairly clear that it was all finished, as far as the creation of both Adam and Eve by the end of the sixth day when God declared all that He had created 'very good'.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[Halbhh]

I agree with the actual thread title. If the Creation happened in 6 literal days, people and dinosaurs would have lived together. Science proves that is impossible.

Yes, the two species have clearly lived at different time periods according to finding bones/fossils of remains. Both metaphorical and some literal interpretations can agree with that easily also, but still its useful to know in these discussions, because it helps suggest certain ideas aren't on target. I'm not sure how many different interpretations people have of these not-in-scripture small details of creation/life unfolding (if not like 7 billion! ), but it seems there are some varieties I've seen a simplified form of many times, and those number at least a half dozen or so, and I've not even tried to search out others, so there may be more.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Hi C4C,

I would posit that if you're only going to believe what science has proved or disproved, then there is a lot that is accounted in the Scriptures that didn't happen.

Are you saying we should totally disregard undisputable scientific proof that Genesis 1 is not about 6 days but billions of years?

 

[Halbhh]

Hi halbhh,

I thought you were presenting yourself as a strict Scriptural literalist.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day

It certainly seems, in this translation, that God's concluding the sixth day and pronouncing everything that He had made 'very good', came after His own account of how and when He created man. Wouldn't a 'literal view' support that position? I'm honestly not quite clear on how you can categorically claim that the creation of mankind on day six is an 'assumption'. But, be that as it may, I would certainly want to see some Scriptural proof of that position before I could be in complete approval with your statement here. No matter, it all seems to have been completed by the time we get to the seventh day in which God rested and did no work, so I'm not sure I could confirm that God made Adam or Eve on or after the seventh day.

Now, I do completely agree that when we get to Genesis 2, the account does seem to put some time between the creation of Adam from Eve because of God's account that Adam took time to name all of the animals and that out of them no suitable helper was found for Adam, which is what God said just before he brought all the animals for Adam to name. But, it isn't necessarily so. First, we would need to know what God intended when He says that He brought all of the birds and wild animals. I wouldn't think a wild animal would include any of the bugs and possibly not any of the animals that we know as domesticated, but that is only an assumption on my part. But if we're only talking a couple hundred species of birds and wild animals, it's possible that Adam could have named them in a few hours. After all, the account does say that God 'brought' the animals to Adam. It wasn't like he had to go looking for each one to name it, but much like in Noah's day, the various and sundry animals came to stand before Adam to be named.

We would also need to know how many animals and how God classified them as different species. In other words, God brings one wolf to stand before Adam, where today we have two dozen different kinds of wolves, as we name them today. One parrot, and not fifty different varieties of parrots. One hummingbird and not two dozen varieties of hummingbirds. If, the number of birds and animals that the Lord brought before Adam could be named in a few hours, then it really isn't hard to see that by the evening of that same day, God saw that Adam wasn't really attracted romantically to any of them, if that's what God means by saying that no 'suitable' helper was found for Adam. He puts Adam to sleep and within 10 minutes takes out one of Adam's ribs and fashions the body of a woman around it and voile', we have Adam and Eve and all the animals named in a single day!

So, with a little imagining, we can produce a plausible scenario whereby God could have fashioned Adam from the dust of the ground; set him down to name a couple of hundred animals that just immediately appeared before him; put Adam to sleep and made Eve from his rib. None of this understanding of how the day actually passed is Scriptural, but the Scriptures are fairly clear that it was all finished, as far as the creation of both Adam and Eve by the end of the sixth day when God declared all that He had created 'very good'.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

I see I wrote that short post #133 too short, and not clear enough.

God created humankind on the sixth day in the first chapter of Genesis.

But, it's an assumption when you, Ted, presume or assume that this 6th day general creation of humans who are told to multiply is also is the same moment in time as the special creation of Adam individually in the Garden.

Adam of course clearly was not created along with a group of other humans, and for a while was the only human in the Garden. After Eve was created, then there were 2 humans in the Garden it seems, but not more.

But I'm not really trying to get you to abandon your assumptions here so much as I am trying to get you to see your are using some assumptions.

------
Hope you find time sometime to read post #126 more carefully or fully though -- it's got some bigger and more important topics.

 

[miamited]

Are you saying we should totally disregard undisputable scientific proof that Genesis 1 is not about 6 days but billions of years?

Hi C4C,

What I'm saying is that we need to be very careful and research any 'scientific' claims that would deny the truth of God's word. I've also looked into this idea that dinosaurs may or may not have lived along side man. I haven't found any credible evidence, other than the claim that dinosaurs are supposed to be billions of years older than mankind, that would actually preclude dinosaurs from living on the same earth in the same time as mankind. I know that there are a lot of claims made by science regarding the age of things, but they are all based on questionable processes that deny any miraculous event that could have come about because there is a God for whom nothing is impossible.

Now, you may think me a bumpkin that just bounced off the turnip truck, but I've read the science and done some studying of the science, and I still believe that God, about 6,000 years ago created this realm of existence in which we exist out of absolutely nothing. Basically, as one might describe a magician's work, just 'poof' and something exists that 2 minutes before just did not exist. That from one moment to the next, the universe that surrounds the earth for billions and billions of light years of distance, just popped up with everything in its place and working perfectly like a Swiss watch movement.

Yes, I fully understand that may not be what a lot of even christians believe. But that's what my faith tells me. You see, part of my understanding of that belief comes from my reading and understanding God and His purpose in creating this realm. God created this realm. He raised up a people to know Him and be His people to write down for us all about who He is. Then after getting it all written down, He sent His Son to pay the price for sin. One day, according to His word, the heavens are going to roll up like a scroll. Trust me please, that in that day those scientists are going to tell you that what you just saw didn't really happen because it is impossible for the heavens to just disappear.

Those same scientists today are going to tell you that it's impossible that a sea could part and on two sides of a wide chasm there could stand a wall of water. Science has well proven that water seeks its level. If science is correct in teaching that that is true in all cases when dealing with water and it is the way that water has always been, then the account of the parting of the sea is a lie. That's where blind belief in science, and only believing in science, will get you.

A great many college students loose their faith that their parents may have raised them into, because our colleges teach this idea of a very, very old creation event for which no one really knows the answer as to how it came about. That teaching undermines the very foundation of the opening claim of God in His word. They naturally reason, well if that part isn't true, then how can I have any confidence that any of the rest of it is. If that account is really because some ancient and uneducated societies explained the world by superstitious gods, then why would I think that any of the Scriptures isn't just a continuation of the story of some ancient, uneducated society explaining their feeble understanding of how the world operated then?

Me, God created all that is just as He has told us in His word. One day He will bring it all to a close and we will all come under the judgment of God, also just as He has told us in His word. The only way to escape that dread and awful day of God's judgment is to have taken Jesus as your advocate. We live in a created realm that was created in mere moments, relatively. One day it will all come to an end, also in mere moments, relatively. The Scriptures are God's testimony to us of all that He has done, and is doing, that those who will trust and believe Him, will gain eternal life. One day all mankind will know the truth.

God bless,
In Christ, ted