It’s Paul For Me

[Clare73]

I could be wrong,

According to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, you are. . .

but I don't think God is dealing with Israel in the same manner as everyone else; and I think He's being a bit secretive about it in His Word. All of Israel's eschatology seems to require inference rather than direct reference.

Your interpretation of Israel's eschatology from prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8)
is in disagreement with NT apostolic teaching of Ro 11:16-23,
where God has only one people of his one olive tree, from which one olive tree unbelieving Jews have been cut off (Ro 11:17),
and to which one tree Jews will be grafted back in again IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

According to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church,
Israel's has no other destiny than to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people, the NT church IF (not "when"). . .(Ro 11:23).

Any personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not in agreement with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church in Ro 11:23 is in error.

 

[WordSword]

Hi. Before I reply did you read any of the articles?

I am sure I have read 1-4 and 7, possibly 5.
I will not be too annoyed if you honestly answer that you haven't read any.
Just be honest.

I'm not sure what you mean by the articles.

You see "correlating Israel with the Body of Christ" causes me to ask myself "Where did WordSword read that?"
So, if my curiosity is naive, give me a quote. That'll fix me.

I've come to learn that much of the Scripture concerning Israel's eschatology is inferred rather than direct teachings, e.g. Eze 36:24; Jer 31:31-33 (this final and new covenant is still "law," "statutes" and "ordinances - Eze 11:20) is related to Israel and not the Church as many may think.

Also the church not inheriting "these things" does not include the new earth as well as the heaven ???
You're going to have to defend that.

The Jews who believe in God (e.g. Jn 14:1 "Ye believe in God") inherit the "land," i.e. New Earth; Christians inherit the New Heaven with the Lord Jesus and rule with Him. They miss the "blessing" - Jhn 20:29. Israel cannot call God their Father for not believing in Christ, they will continue as "His people," which answers to why the OT never refers Israel as children of God, but instead "people of God."

Also, if I may ask, what is a "none Jew." God bless!

 

[WordSword]

According to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church, you are. . .

Your interpretation of Israel's eschatology from prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8)
is in disagreement with NT apostolic teaching of Ro 11:16-23,
where God has only one people of his one olive tree, from which one olive tree unbelieving Jews have been cut off (Ro 11:17),
and to which one tree Jews will be grafted back in again IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

According to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church,
Israel's has no other destiny than to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people, the NT church IF (not "when"). . .(Ro 11:23).

Any personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not in agreement with NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church in Ro 11:23 is in error.

It's ok of course that we disagree concerning this subject. Most believers also disagree with me, and are bereft to applying Israel's blessings to the Church in the Lord Jesus.

 

[timewerx]

It's Jesus for me. Why Paul only?

Everything that is to come has already been revealed in the scriptures that was already available in the time of Jesus.

Many of these scriptures are not found in our Bible. The Bible did not exist back then and would not be for at least another 400 years.

Paul did not preach to all the Israelites so everyone who died before hearing his teachings, what a bummer...

Not the case at all. Everything we need to know was already available in the scriptures available to the Jews. Jesus simply made an example of these teaching by fulfilling it.

 

[oikonomia]

I'm not sure what you mean by the articles.

Please tell me if when you look up post #18 you do not see six colored links which open to articles about Israel.
Is there some technicality which causes post #18 to appear differently for you than it does for me?

I've come to learn that much of the Scripture concerning Israel's eschatology is inferred rather than direct teachings, e.g. Eze 36:24; Jer 31:31-33 (this final and new covenant is still "law," "statutes" and "ordinances - Eze 11:20) is related to Israel and not the Church as many may think.


The Jews who believe in God (e.g. Jn 14:1 "Ye believe in God") inherit the "land," i.e. New Earth; Christians inherit the New Heaven with the Lord Jesus and rule with Him. They miss the "blessing" - Jhn 20:29. Israel cannot call God their Father for not believing in Christ, they will continue as "His people," which answers to why the OT never refers Israel as children of God, but instead "people of God."

But this does not check out completely in the OT. Yet there is a difference in God fathering Israel and the regeneration of Him
dispensing His actual life and nature into the new covenant believers.

Here are samples of Yahweh being Father in some sense to Israel in the Hebrew Bible.

For You are our Father, / Since Abraham does not know us, / And Israel does not acknowledge us. / You, Jehovah, are our Father; / Our Redeemer from eternity is Your name. ( Isa. 63:16 )

But now, Jehovah, You are our Father; / We are the clay; and You, our Potter; / And all of us are the work of Your hand. (Isa. 64:8)

A son honors his father, and a servant his lord. Therefore if I am a Father, where is My honor? And if I am the Lord, where is My fear? says Jehovah of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. But you say, How have we despised Your name? (Mal. 1:6)

If in the OT God was not their Father in divine life impartation. But He was their Father in the sense of being thier Creator. I mean the creator of the nation of Israel.

Also, if I may ask, what is a "none Jew." God bless!

That was a bad typo. I meant to write "non-Jew" or in other words - a Gentile.

 

[Clare73]

It's ok of course that we disagree concerning this subject. Most believers also disagree with me, and are bereft to
applying Israel's blessings to the Church in the Lord Jesus.

God has only one people, the one olive tree (Ro 11:17-23), those of faith in the promise (Ge 3:15, 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

 

[oikonomia]

The Jews who believe in God (e.g. Jn 14:1 "Ye believe in God") inherit the "land," i.e. New Earth; Christians inherit the New Heaven with the Lord Jesus and rule with Him. They miss the "blessing" - Jhn 20:29.

I keep coming across this kind of teaching on this Forum.
I am beginning to wonder what the source of this teaching is.
And I didn't see how you are applying John 20:29 to uphold your concept.

John chapter 14 doesn't say anything that I can see about either heaven or earth.
It does reveal that to be brought into Christ is to inherit God Himself and for God to inherit those in whom He will live.

Now if you inherit God, I mean, everything positive of His you also inherit.

There was a story about a rich man who had a vast estate he was autioning off.
He brought everything he owned to a gigantic lawn in front of his huge and luxurious estate.

One person said "I'll take that great bush".
Another said "I want that beautiful yacht."
Another saind "I want the have that huge house."

Then a little boy said "I want YOU." The young mind grasped that to have the owner himself was to have everything of his.

John 14 is not about this or that item whether on heaven or on earth as our inheritance.
It is about inheriting the One who is eternal uncreated Person and possessor of everything.
It is that this One comes as the triune God to make an abode in the redeemed people to have a standing in God Himself.

The place Christ goes to prepare for the disciples is not heaven.
It is a living Person as a "place" that we may be where He is.
This is the utimate inheritance. It is to inherit the triune God as eternal life and become the Father's house.

 

[WordSword]

I keep coming across this kind of teaching on this Forum.
I am beginning to wonder what the source of this teaching is.
And I didn't see how you are applying John 20:29 to uphold your concept.

Hi, and like your reply because it's quite probing, which can cause more searching for the reader! I believe the first point of Jn 20:29 is that of believing in the Lord Jesus' resurrection, which the apostles and disciples did not believe until they saw Him (Jhn 20:9).

I also believe that the passage serves for Christians to believe in His resurrection, without which one cannot be saved, it being one of the essential doctrines (teachings related only to scripture that teach how to be saved) - confession and resurrection of Christ (Rom 10:9).

John chapter 14 doesn't say anything that I can see about either heaven or earth.

Trying to figure out what you mean by using JN 14 concerning heaven or earth. I usually use it to show that the majority of the Jews believe in God, e.g. "Ye believe in God," 14:1, even though they do not believe in Christ. It's my understanding that they will inherit the New Earth; the Christians inherit the New Heaven.

 

[WordSword]

God has only one people, the one olive tree (Ro 11:17-23), those of faith in the promise (Ge 3:15, 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

God has one people in Christ; but Israel (those who believe in God) is a totally different entity in my opinion. He is highly protective of them, even to the point of their unique eschatology, which requires much inference of Scripture.

For example, Jer 31:31-33 and Eze 36:25-27 is a new and final covenant with Israel, which is still "law" (Jer 31:33), "statutes," "judgements" and new "ordinances" (Eze 36:27). The Christians new covenant has none of this involved, just a covenant between Christ and the Father, of which Christians are only recipients and not covenantors like Israel was.

God guaranteed the Lord Jesus He would raise Him from the dead if He sacrificed Himself for the sins of believers; this is the Covenant of Redemption (What Is the Covenant of Redemption?). Short article from R C Sproul.

​

 

[WordSword]

Copied from link to seven articles in Shepherding Words on a biblical healthy attitude of Christians to current events in Israel.
The info was copied without permission from Israel in God’s Economy (1) – An Introduction
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The articles in this series will look at the special place that Israel occupies in God’s economy from a variety of angles, including:

• Israel as God’s earthly people based on God’s calling of Abraham and His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob;
• God’s way of dealing with Israel and the nations in the Old Testament;
• Israel and God’s salvation in the New Testament;
• The main prophecies concerning Israel before the Lord’s coming;
• Israel in the end times, in the kingdom, and in eternity future; and
• Most importantly, what our attitude should be toward Israel and the signs of the Lord’s coming.

May the Lord enlighten the saints in His recovery that we may give Him our full cooperation without distraction that He may consummate His move in this age for the building up of the Body of Christ and the preparation of His bride that He may come back to establish His kingdom on the earth.

I got it now, thanks! I like this the best:

"The Bible shows us that, according to His plan, God has chosen two peoples. Ephesians 1:4 tells us that He chose the New Testament believers “before the foundation of the world.” However, the Bible is equally clear that God chose Abraham and his descendants to be His people among all the nations of the earth. We should not think that God’s purpose regarding Israel is over. In the New Testament the Apostle Paul, writing concerning Israel, reminds us that “the gracious gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable” (Rom. 11:29). It is important, therefore, for us to understand God’s economy with respect to both the church and the nation of Israel and how it applies to the present day."

 

[Clare73]

God has one people in Christ; but Israel (those who believe in God) is a totally different entity in my opinion.

The world is composed of two groups: those who are God's people, and those who are not.
Jesus made quite clear what the destiny is for each of those groups: salvation for those of faith in (the promise, Ge 15:5, Seed, Gal 3:26) Jesus Christ, and damnation for those of unbelief in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18)

Everything else is window dressing.

 

[oikonomia]

Trying to figure out what you mean by using JN 14 concerning heaven or earth. I usually use it to show that the majority of the Jews believe in God, e.g. "Ye believe in God," 14:1, even though they do not believe in Christ. It's my understanding that they will inherit the New Earth; the Christians inherit the New Heaven.

That helps. But my replies may be out of good sequence.
No doubt you have seen that God the Father is in Christ the Son.

The place that Jesus goes to prepare for the disciples is a place in God as He is in God.
If it were only possible that Jesus could have this union with the Father, He would have told them so.
But He is about to go to the cross to accomplish eternal redemption.
That lays the groundwork for them to come to the living place where He is.

Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me.
In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be.
(John 14:1-3RcV)

According to this book's own interpretation the Father's house is now the Body of Christ.
Before He died and rose His physical body was the Father's house, the temple.

First, He tabernacled among us through His incarnation.
And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. (John 1:14RcV)

Second, He equated Himself with "Bethel" the house of God in Jacob's prophetic dream in Genesis 28:11-22.
And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man. (John 1:51)

Third, Here Jesus says His body is the house of His Father. And if they destroyed that living temple He would raise it up in three days.
His disciples remembered that it was written, “The zeal of Your house shall devour Me.”
The Jews then answered and said to Him, What sign do You show us, seeing that You do these things?
Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then the Jews said, This temple was built in forty-six years, and You will raise it up in three days?
But He spoke of the temple of His body.
When therefore He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken. (John 2:17-22)

To understand this we have to be able to make a transition in our thinking from the physical realm to what some call the divine and mystical realm. I mean He scolded the Jews for making the temple, His Father's house, a den of thieves.
But He transitions to the reality of the divine and mystical realm. His phyisical body is the REAL temple. God now lived on the earth within
Him, the Son of Man - the Son of God.

The evangelist John establishes this early in his gospel in chapters one and two.
We now fast forward to chapter 14. Jesus promises that His Father's house has not only one abode.
But He goes to prepare in that house of His many abodes.

The plural "abodes" is found in the singular in verse 23 where He promises that He and His Father as the Triune God
will come and make an [singular] "abode" with all those who love Him and keep His word.

In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. (14:2)
Compare:
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him. (v.14)

Because I only want to write a post here and not a long chapter I offer for now just this much.

Summary:

Jesus would have told us if only HE can be mingled, united, and blended with His Father through incarnation.
Through His going to the cross on Calvary He went to prepare a place for His followers.
Each of them is to be an eternal abode in the place of His mystical Body as the Father's house of many abodes.

The mutuality of this living relationship is emphasized more in the next chapter. Then the verb form
of "abode" is used - "abide". His intructions is that we are to abide in Him to allow Him to abide in us.
The word picture has changed from the Father's house to the True Vine. We are the branches deriving all our life from Him.

I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman. (John 15:1RcV)
Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine,
so neither can you unless you abide in Me. (John 15:4RcV)

Do you get a glimps? Jesus prepares a standing in the place of the Triune God that God and man
may be united, incorporated, mingled together according to the eternal purpose of the Triune God.

Let me include one song I wrote from this marvelous chapter 14 of John. (any additional video is not intended)

 

[WordSword]

The world is composed of two groups: those who are God's people, and those who are not.
Jesus made quite clear what the destiny is for each of those groups: salvation for those of faith in (the promise, Ge 15:5, Seed, Gal 3:26) Jesus Christ, and damnation for those of unbelief in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18)

Everything else is window dressing.

Of course it's ok if we have a difference of understanding, and it's clear we do concerning Israel's eschatology. Most will never accept what I and the Plymouth Brethren (1700-1800s) from England believed. But that's understandable, considering a lack of direct related Scripture for support; which much of Scripture must be inferred to come to the belief of what we are discussing. God bless!

 

[WordSword]

That helps. But my replies may be out of good sequence.

I think you're ok considering the difficulty of requiring Scriptural inference to support these teachings of Israel's eschatology. There is some direct Scriptural references to what I'm sharing (e.g. Jer 31:31-33; Eze 36:25-27), which definitely referrers to Israel; the language is clear there.

No doubt you have seen that God the Father is in Christ the Son.

Yes, and in the Holy Spirit, as all Three are "One," meaning "of the same accord" (1Jn 5:7 - this verse is not in the majority of translations).

If it were only possible that Jesus could have this union with the Father

Not sure what you mean by this statement. Of course they are in union and fellowship with One another and are inseparable.

According to this book's own interpretation the Father's house is now the Body of Christ. Before He died and rose His physical body was the Father's house, the temple.

What book do you mean? The Father's house is a real place with "many mansions" (Jhn 14:2). The House couldn't be the Son because it's a "place." But the Body of Christ is the Church, and Christ of course in the Head. To me, these are symbolic terminologies describing that we are one in fellowship with Them and the Spirit.

 

[Clare73]

Of course it's ok if we have a difference of understanding, and it's clear we do concerning Israel's eschatology. Most will never accept what I and the Plymouth Brethren (1700-1800s) from England believed. But that's understandable, considering a lack of direct related Scripture for support; which much of Scripture must be inferred to come to the belief of what we are discussing. God bless!

Interesting. . .at least you're clear about your Scriptural support.

With my understanding that all interpretation of Scripture must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching (as distinct from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken, Nu 12:8), because the word of God does not contradict itself, I see dispensationalism, itself, as contra-Biblical.

 

[WordSword]

Interesting. . .at least you're clear about your Scriptural support.

With my understanding that all interpretation of Scripture must be in agreement with NT apostolic teaching (as distinct from prophetic riddles not clearly spoken, Nu 12:8), because the word of God does not contradict itself, I see dispensationalism, itself, as contra-Biblical.

Like what you said. But all dispensational teachings just shows the difference in God's way of doing things, e.g. the dealings with the OT believers and the NT believers are not the same--a vast difference. He "dispensed" one way of workings different from another way of working. Dispense in this sense just means "to distribute" (1Co 9:17; Eph 1:10; 3:2; Col 1:25).

 

[oikonomia]

What book do you mean?

By "this book" I meant the Gospel of John.

The Father's house is a real place with "many mansions" (Jhn 14:2).

Here is the problem of natural thought and traditional shortsightedness strongly biasing too many Christians.
Do you think the preparation of these heavenly mansions has occupied the Lord Jesus for 2,000 plus years?
By going to prepare mansions do you imagine Jesus has been hanging curtains, manicuring lawns and bushes, hanging chandiliers, and
laying carpets for billions of mansions in heaven.

This natural thought needs to be discarded, uprooted really, to enter into "this book's" true revelation.
I laid out much of the explanation already. It appears that you didn't receive too much having stopped
to read the King James "mansions" rather than a more suitable English word. The King James and some
other English translations have this. The Recovery Version based mostly on Nestle Greek text has
In My Father’s house are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

If you don't like the "abodes" in the Father's house as rendered in the Recovery Version (RcV) let's check some
other renderings.

ESV
In my Father’s house are many rooms.
Berean Standard
In My Father’s house are many rooms.
NASB
In My Father’s house are many rooms
NASB 1995
. . . many dwelling places;
Legacy Standard Bible
. . . many dwelling places;
Amplified
. . . many dwelling places.
Aramaic in Plain English
“There are many lodgings in my Father's house,
ISV
There are many rooms in my Father's house.

Christ went away and came again when He died on the cross and resurrected.
It is there that He prepared many abodes, dwelling places, rooms, or lodgings in God's house.

The house of God is the church of the living God. Emphasize "the LIVING God" meaning God is living in the real church not
merely by creed or theological doctrine. The house of God must express God living in man and man in God.

But if I delay, I write that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth.

And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was manifested in the flesh, / Justified in the Spirit, / Seen by angels, / Preached among the nations, / Believed on in the world, / Taken up in glory.

The church is the pillar and base of the truth in this universe.
And the church as the Body of Christ is the extension and expansion of "He [God in Christ] who was manifested in the flesh".

In other words the manifestation of God in the flesh in Jesus Christ is to continue and expand in His Body the church.

Hebrews affirms that we who are in Christ are God's house.
But Christ was faithful as a Son over His house, whose house we are if indeed we hold fast the boldness and the boast of hope firm to the end.(Hebrews 3:6a)

By Christ growing in us we are also being built into the habitation or dwelling place of God in spirit.
Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;
In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;
In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit. (Eph. 2:21,22)

Christ went to the cross to prepare a place for us in the living habitation of God, the real temple which is the church
and ultimately the New Jerusalem.

The House couldn't be the Son because it's a "place." But the Body of Christ is the Church, and Christ of course in the Head. To me, these are symbolic terminologies describing that we are one in fellowship with Them and the Spirit.

I would request that having read this post, considering reading again the other one, particularly the verses
as I know you do - meditatively, in a prayerful way. Try it. See if it now brings these things to light a little.

Permit me another song from John 14?

 

[WordSword]

By "this book" I meant the Gospel of John.

Here is the problem of natural thought and traditional shortsightedness strongly biasing too many Christians.
Do you think the preparation of these heavenly mansions has occupied the Lord Jesus for 2,000 plus years?
By going to prepare mansions do you imagine Jesus has been hanging curtains, manicuring lawns and bushes, hanging chandiliers, and laying carpets for billions of mansions in heaven.

This natural thought needs to be discarded, uprooted really, to enter into "this book's" true revelation.

It's ok of course that we believe different here, but I believe the teachings are literal, not symbolic, i.e. they are actual mansions, etc.

 

[Clare73]

Like what you said. But all dispensational teachings just shows the difference in God's way of doing things,

Different ways of doing things does not contradict anything presented in all of Scripture, as dispensationalism contradicts apostolic teaching.

The first rule of divine truth is that God does not contradict himself in his word.

 

[oikonomia]

It's ok of course that we believe different here, but I believe the teachings are literal, not symbolic, i.e. they are actual mansions, etc.

Okay my brother. If you can point out specifically where I misspoke or misrepresented the NT, you can show me the specifics.
You can discuss Post #32.

The first time I heard this I also had some hesitation and doubt.
That was a conference of the local churches in the east coast in Boston in 1974, the year I discovered the Lord's recovery.

I always had thought that by Jesus saying He was going away and coming again to receive us
to Himself meant He went to Heaven and in His second coming He will take us there. I'd be in one mansion. And I'd
look out the window over the hills and see your mansion, etc. etc. The truth is so much higher than this that now I
feel cheated by such a natural concept.

God is building Himself into His people. God is the growing divine life to fill up, saturate, and glorify His people.
This is the Body of Christ and the house of the Father. By His growing He is building.
He was God-man the rejected cornerstone of this divine / human dwelling.
And we are all living stones be built up through transformation into a spiritual house, a holy priesthood.

Coming to Him, a living stone, rejected by men but with God chosen and precious,

You yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 2:4,5)

Do you need more confirmation of this interpretion?
It is all over the bible. God's eternal purpose is to dispense Himself into a corporate vessel for
His dwelling place in man.

Consider this. Jesus said that He intended to die and not abide alone but multiply into many like Himself - much fruit.

Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:24)