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It’s a huge topic I know

Discussion in 'For New Christians' started by Lenno, Jan 24, 2022.

  1. Lenno

    Lenno Member

    United Kingdom
    It’s a huge topic I know but what’s your relationship to the Old Testament? Also how do you see the relationship between the old and new testaments?

    My mother is a church goer but if I remember correctly she once told me she doesn’t really believe in the OT so I’m not sure what sort of credibility to give it.

    I’m no biblical scholar. I know most of Jesus story, and a bit about Ten Commandments, and a vague recollection of the parting of the Red Sea. Didn’t god in the OT help the Jews win battles and things like that?
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  2. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

    The OT is as much God's word as the NT. The NT makes a lot more sense when you know the OT. However, the aspect of God's character revealed in the OT tends to be difficult to understand.

    Much of the OT concerns the covenant relationship between God and Israel. There are also prophecies concerning the future and God's law is revealed. The OT points to Lord Jesus. He is revealed in every book. I remember hearing a preacher declare every instance. I wish I had a recording.

    The following link gives a list of every reference to Lord Jesus, both OT and NT. I hope it helps.

    Jesus in All 66 books of the Bible
  3. disciple Clint

    disciple Clint Well-Known Member

    United States
    The Bible progressively reveals God to us. God starts with a people who have a slave mentality and makes them a nation, God gives them laws and covenants, provides for their needs, guides them and sends His Son to save them. What is concealed in the O.T. is revealed in the N.T. so they are interrelated, our relationship with God is a long story but it is well worth reading all the parts of it.
  4. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

    I would agree with progressive revelation. There are things in the OT that Christians would not do, such as killing whole populations. You should also be aware that outside of evangelicalism, historians and archaeologists don’t think parts of the OT before about the time of the kings are entirely accurate historically.

    Jesus did use concepts from the OT, and referred to it many times.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    United States
    Rest assured that if your mother knew more about the New Testament -- she would not say that about the Old Testament.

    The New Testament writers base all their doctrine on the OT and called it "Scripture" - we also call it scripture.

    New Testament writers like Paul said of the O.T. "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine, instruction and correction" 2 Tim 3:16

    More of 2 Tim 3
    14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for doctrine, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man or woman of God may be fully capable, equipped for every good work.

    When he speaks of the OT Paul says "The Holy Spirit says"

    Heb 3:
    6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the boast of our hope.
    7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
    “Today if you hear His voice,
    8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
    As on the day of trial in the wilderness,
    9 Where your fathers put Me to the test,

    In Acts 17 Paul preaches to those who are not yet Christian - and when they want to "see IF" Paul is correct - they read the OT - called "scriptures"

    Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the APOSTLE Paul - were SO"

    Christ continued to preach from the OT even AFTER his resurrection
    Luke 24:
    25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.

    Acts 8:35
    Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.

    Acts 17:2
    And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures

    2 Peter 1:
    19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

    There are bazillions more - but I don't want to flood this thread with them.
  6. timf

    timf Regular Member

    Some critics of the Old Testament suggest it was a fabrication by the priestly class of Israel to make themselves look good.

    I don't know if these critics ever read the Old Testament, but it definitely does not make the nation look good. This in itself lends credibility to its truthfulness. In addition there are prophecies many of which have already been proved true.

    The word "testament" is a legal term meaning contract. It refers to the agreement between God and the nation of Israel at Mt. Sinai after they came out of Egypt.

    The prophet Jeremiah (Jer 31:31) foretold of a new contract (New Testament) that would be offered to the nation. Jesus offered this to Israel, but it was not accepted at that time.

    The Old Testament is useful to understand some about God and his plans for Israel and through Israel the world. This understanding is also useful to place the ministry of Jesus in context. Many of the things Jesus said were describing what those of Israel could expect in the kingdom that would be established if the nation accepted the offer.

    In the early church many of Israel who believed in Jesus as Messiah demonstrated the supernatural powers that would be associated with the establishment of the kingdom. Hebrews 6:5 describes this as a taste of the power of the age to come.

    Since the nation failed to accept the offered kingdom, salvation was offered directly to the world at large and the kingdom was delayed until a future time when a remnant of Israel would be willing to accept the kingdom. The difficulty on earth that will create a situation where Isrel will receive the kingdom is described in the book of Revelation.
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    United States
    Agreed -- many bad things are said about what Christ called "the Word of God".

    Mark 7:6-13
    6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
    ‘This people honors Me with their lips,
    But their heart is far from Me.
    7 And in vain they worship Me,
    Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
    9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

    Christ teaches the opposition to "the Word of God" by the traditions and saying of man - is a very old long-running battle.
    The New Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 was in full effect in the OT and is unchanged in its language in the NT as we see it quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12. If the language of Jer 31:31-34 meant "not available now" then that same exact language used in Heb 8 would mean we still don't have it. Which is not the case.

    Instead the Bible says there is only "ONE Gospel" and thus only one Gospel Covenant - Gal 1:6-9 and it further says that Gospel "was preached to Abraham" - which is how we see Moses and Elijah standing in glory - with Christ in Matt 17 - even before the cross ever happens.

    NT writers repeatedly quote the OT as authoritative scripture.
  8. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

    Christian Seeker
    The problem with OT is lack of archeological evidence.

    NT have enough archeological evidence of Jesus and his immediate family members did exist. Not just in names but also evidence of the same names living together as part of the same family.

    It might have been one of the things that Jesus came for. Jesus did accuse the Pharisees of "denying the truth" to the Jews. One way the Pharisees could have done it is obscure or even corrupt the scriptures that would be today's OT (Torah to the Jews)
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    United States
    how much archeological evidence do you have for the virgin birth?
  10. Trusting in Him

    Trusting in Him Well-Known Member

    United Kingdom
    The best commentry on the bible is the bible it's self and a lot of the portions, which act as a commentary on the books of the New Testament are in the books of the Old Testament. Have you ever heard it said, that the New Testament is in the Old contained and the Old Testament is in the New explained?

    Without the Old Tesament, we would not have the Psalms, Proverbs, Ecceleiastes, or Song of Solomon. These still have words of real importance for our lives in the days we now live in and what about how much that that Old Testament tells us about the events of the end times days. A very large part of our understanding about praise, worship and how to live in relationship with God comes from the Old testament.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
  11. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

    Christian Seeker
    None that I know of but at least they got evidence of Jesus and His family existing and living together.

    The virgin birth if it's authentic teaching is also a bit problematic but not an allowed topic to discuss as it undermines the NT and the whole Christian religion.
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    United States
    Ok - but a lot of people "lived" in history - that does not make them "God the Son incarnate" - the very heart of the gospel is removed once you argue that Bible facts like the virgin birth cannot be trusted until you have archaeology showing it to have occurred.

    Even so ...

    AMAZING - 21 Greatest Old Testament Biblical Archaeology Discoveries Ever (2021).
  13. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    There's no New Testament without the Old. The New is both the fulfillment of the Old as well as the explanation.

    I'll be honest, if you don't understand the old and how the two (old and new) go together then it's not really possible to understand major concepts like salvation.
  14. Petros2015

    Petros2015 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox

    “A man planted a vineyard and let it out to tenants and went into another country for a long while. 10 When the time came, he sent a servant to the tenants, so that they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11 And he sent another servant. But they also beat and treated him shamefully, and sent him away empty-handed. 12 And he sent yet a third. This one also they wounded and cast out. 13 Then the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my beloved son; perhaps they will respect him.’


    14 But when the tenants saw him, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Let us kill him, so that the inheritance may be ours.’ 15 And they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy those tenants and give the vineyard to others.” When they heard this, they said, “Surely not!” 17 But he looked directly at them and said, “What then is this that is written:

    “‘The stone that the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone’?

    18 Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”

    It works on a personal level as well as a historical one.
  15. Trusting in Him

    Trusting in Him Well-Known Member

    United Kingdom
    We are meant to read and understand the Old Testament. It is necessary!

    For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. (Romans 15:4)

    Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (1 corinthians 10:11)

    If Jesus has quoted from the Old Testament so much as part of his teaching, why are you bothered about the archeological evidence? If Jesus is happy to quote from the Old Testament why is not that good enough for you? Who cares about the archeologically? You can trust Jesus, His words are true!
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

    United States
    Particularly since the NT quotes the OT as "its proof"
  17. Maria Billingsley

    Maria Billingsley Well-Known Member Supporter

    United States
    In Relationship
    The Old Testament testifies to Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Not only is He prophesied continually but He interacts with Israel in many ways. The Bereans searched the scriptures in order to confirm the Messiah, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
  18. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

    The Old and New Testaments have been likened to the two rails of railroad track. Remove one of the rails and the "train" of your theology and doctrine will end up in a ruined, smoking heap. The Old Testament is the historical and theological context within which the New Testament exists. This is why the OT is either directly quoted or alluded to in the NT nearly a thousand times.

    A list of Old Testament books quoted by Jesus and other New Testament writers.

    Beware also those who would erode your confidence in the Bible, suggesting it is faulty in some way and not to be trusted. These people will lead you away from truth, from God, into a mere human construct called "God" who is at bottom, just a reflection of their preferences, prejudices and personality.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17
    16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
    17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

    It is entirely trustworthy, which is why Jesus and the apostle referred to it many hundreds of time within the NT.

    Yes, often. Much of the OT foreshadows Christ in the New Testament, his sacrifice on the cross in atonement for our sin and our life in him. You need both "rails" of the Bible along which to travel as a Christian.
  19. Sketcher

    Sketcher Born Imperishable

    The OT tells us who God is, and his relationship to all mankind, and how mankind became disordered though sin. It tells us the history of the Jewish people, and the instructions God gave to them.

    It is important to understand that there are laws, mandates, and permissions given to the Jews that were not given to those who are not Jewish, yet there are also laws which God gave to all mankind which overlap with the Jewish laws. It is also important to understand that God gave Israel a different mission in the OT than the mission that he gave the church in the NT. This explains why in the OT, witches were to be tried and executed, while in the NT, they were exorcised and preached to. There were no death squads of Christians in the NT, there were evangelists. We have the Great Commission at the end of Matthew and Mark and at the beginning of Acts; you can't evangelize to the dead.