Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Landon Caeli]

Why would you think an organization started by Holocaust scholars would prefer the Palestinians?

why would or wouldn't they? Do you think the Jews are all Nationalists like the Palestinians tend to be? Nope, there is no equality in customs between the Jews in general and the Palestinians, and there's no equality either between the customs of Israeli's and the Palestinians. They're not the same. Not alike.

This is a good point for people to see how compassionate the Jews are compared to those trying to wipe them off the earth.

 

[essentialsaltes]

why would or wouldn't they?

I would think Holocaust scholars have a good grasp of what antisemitism is, and they would be mentally prepared to avoid swallowing any antisemitic propaganda when assessing the situation in Gaza. This gives them a better chance to evaluate the situation honestly, and not overly favorable to Hamas in the conflict.

 

[Landon Caeli]

I would think Holocaust scholars have a good grasp of what antisemitism is, and they would be mentally prepared to avoid swallowing any antisemitic propaganda when assessing the situation in Gaza. This gives them a better chance to evaluate the situation honestly, and not overly favorable to Hamas in the conflict.

Well, I've seen other compassionate people bend over backwards here and in Europe for what they perceive to be "humanitarianism". but humanitarianism can become a rabbit hole, that people get stuck in, and once stuck in there, they don't see some other important factors that they should be seeing.

The biggest, most important factor being missed here is that there is a raw kind of evil persistently coming from Palestine, which seems to never end... It is eternally hateful, and can never stop... It's a real problem!

Realistically, the Palestinians are acting A LOT like the Nazis did back in the 1930's. It's like part 2 in a series of events. Or perhaps more like part 4 or 5 if you include ancient times history.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Well, I've seen other compassionate people bend over backwards here and in Europe for what they perceive to be "humanitarianism".

Yes, we all understand how empathy is a wicked thing.

Realistically, the Palestinians are acting A LOT like the Nazis did back in the 1930's.

What? Annexing land that doesn't belong to them? Building walls around the undesirables and restricting their food rations?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Yes, we all understand how empathy is a wicked thing.

What? Annexing land that doesn't belong to them? Building walls around the undesirables and restricting their food rations?

You can only get attacked so many times before *consequences*. If you attack me 1500 times in 50 years, I'm gonna do something to you.

Maybe I'll even confiscate your land! Maybe that won't stop you from attacking me, in which case I have to do something else. You see how this works.

 

[Landon Caeli]

The [some] Palestinians have to stop killing and being evil..! This evil is too persistent, and merciless. It's way, way too much.

 

[essentialsaltes]

You can only get attacked so many times before *consequences*. If you attack me 1500 times in 50 years, I'm gonna do something to you.

Maybe I'll even confiscate your land! Maybe that won't stop you from attacking me, in which case I have to do something else. You see how this works.

Okie doke, boss, but you're making my case for me about who's being the Nazis here.

 

[rjs330]

Or perhaps you don't.

Genocide is the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group in whole or in part, as defined by the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. It involves acts such as killing members of the group, causing serious harm, inflicting conditions calculated to cause destruction, preventing births, or forcibly transferring children. The term was coined by Raphael Lemkin, derived from the Greek "genos" (race) and Latin "cide" (killing), and it is a crime under international law.

Key Aspects of Genocide

• Intent to Destroy: The most crucial element of genocide is the specific intent to destroy a targeted group.
  
  
• • Protected Groups: The definition applies to national, ethnic, racial, and religious groups.
  • Specific Acts: The convention lists five prohibited acts that, if committed with genocidal intent, constitute genocide:
    • • Killing members of the group.
      • Causing serious bodily or mental harm.
      • Deliberately inflicting conditions of life intended to bring about physical destruction.
      • Imposing measures to prevent births within the group.
      • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

The only group Israel is trying to destroy is HAMAS. If they would surrender rhe war would end. That is NOT a genocide.

 

[rjs330]

Okie doke, boss, but you're making my case for me about who's being the Nazis here.

Yup. Hamas and their Palestinian supporters. Those are clearly rhe NAZIS. I think they are worse than Nazis.

 

[Benaiah468]

The only group Israel is trying to destroy is HAMAS. If they would surrender rhe war would end. That is NOT a genocide.

Those who commit genocide no longer want to share the earth with a particular other people. It should be clear who intends to do this in the Middle East.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Those who commit genocide no longer want to share the earth with a particular other people. It should be clear who intends to do this in the Middle East.

Correct.

Israel is in talks to possibly resettle Palestinians from Gaza in South Sudan​

TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — Israel is in discussions with South Sudan about the possibility of resettling Palestinians from the Gaza Strip to the war-torn East African country, part of a wider effort by Israel to facilitate mass emigration from the territory left in ruins by its 22-month offensive against Hamas.

That's ethnic cleansing.

 

[Benaiah468]

Israel is in talks to possibly resettle Palestinians from Gaza in South Sudan​

TEL AVIV, Israel (AP) — Israel is in discussions with South Sudan about the possibility of resettling Palestinians from the Gaza Strip to the war-torn East African country, part of a wider effort by Israel to facilitate mass emigration from the territory left in ruins by its 22-month offensive against Hamas.

That's ethnic cleansing.

In the aftermath of WWII, over 12M Germans were expelled from Eastern Europe between 1945-50. At least 3.5M of them came from the Sudetenland (modern-day Czechia). Imagine, if instead of being resettled in Germany, they were denied German citizenship and forced to live in refugee camps for generations. Over the years those refugees start calling themselves the "Sudeten" nation and claim ownership over the Sudetenland but also the entire Czechia. Due to natural population growth, the "Sudeten" nation would now number over 10M, exceeding the population of Czechia.

Yet that is precisely what happened with the "Palestinians". The "Palestinians" regarded themselves as Arabs or "Syrians" until at least 1960s. They were content to be ruled by Jordan and Egypt between 1948-67. However, the Arab states (except Jordan) explicitly refused to integrate "Palestinians". The Arab League Resolution 1547 (9 Mar 1959) explicitly ordered its member states not to give "Palestinians" citizenship, in order to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their rights to return to their "homeland". As opposed to the UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR), which resettled 50M refugees in the last half-century, the Arab states set up up a separate agency, UNRWA, whose mandate doesn't include resettlement at all. UNRWA then repeatedly changed the definition of "refugee" to accommodate more "Palestinians" with each passing year.

Of course, the circumstances of the 1947-48 war in "Palestine" differ from those of the German refugees. Unlike the 12M Germans who were explicitly forced to leave, historians (e.g. Benny Moris) assert that only 10-15% of the "Palestinians" were directly expelled by the IDF forces. Another 15-25% were ordered to leave by the Arab leaders, and the rest fled out of a general fear of hostilities. While at least 2M German civilians died in the process, the total civilian death count in 1947-48 was ~800. Despite losing the war in the early months, the Israeli leadership didn't have a centralised plan to expel "Palestinians", and many were allowed to remain, now making up 21% of its population. However, overall the analogy still holds.

 

[Benaiah468]

So how did it all begin?

In May 1948, the local Arab population was joined by seven Arab countries in a collective attempt to destroy the newly reestablished Jewish state. Encouraged by Arab leaders who promised they would return as victors, and later on as a result of their failed war efforts, an estimated 500000 Arabs fled to neighboring Arab territories.

But is this the full picture?

I’d like you to take a look at the refugees in these photos

Many people assume they are Arab refugees fleeing Israel. But in fact, they are innocent Jewish refugees forced out of Arab countries.

There were far more Jewish refugees than Arab refugees. Over 850000 Jews from ancient Jewish communities predating Islam and the Arab occupation of the Middle East where forced out of their homes. Jews were stripped of their citizenship in many countries, and their porperty was confiscated.

In contrast, 160000 Arabs accepted Israel’s offer to remain, and today, there are more than one million Israeli Arab citizens with full equal rights living in Israel.

Now here is a question.

Have you heard of any Jewish refugee camps?

I didn’t think so.

The jewish refugees were immediately welcomed and absorbed by Israel or by other nations.

Then why, after more than 60 years, are the Arab "Palestinian" refugees still not welcomed and absorbed among their own brethren?

And how could their numbers have grown from 500000 to 4700000 million?

The sad reality is that the arab refugees never had a chance.

Attempts at resettlement were blocked by a variety of discriminatory laws.

Enacted in Arab countries, such as a ban on receiving citizenship (with the exeption of Jordan), blocking them from entering many professions, restrictions on owning land, restrictions on movement and a denial of education and health services.

Sir Alexander Galloway, a former director of the UN Refugee Agency in Jordan, gave the reason for this discrimination

Egyptian President Gmal Abdel Nasser explained the effect of this weapon aimed at overwhelming Israel demographically, with generations of refugees cultivated to hate

And what role did the United Nations play?

Sadly, they were less than helpful.

While all refugees in the world are assisted by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), a separate agency, UNWRA, was established specifically for the "Palestinians"

Why can’t the "Palestinian" refugees share an agency with the refugees of Bosnia, Congo, or Darfur, to name a few?

The answer ist because while the UN Central Refugee Agency helps refugees resettle, the UN "Palestinian" Refugee Agency helps perpetuate their status by applying unique criteria.

For example refugees lose their status after receiving citizenship frm a recognized country. "Palestinian" refugees do not. Refugees cannot transmit their status from generation to generation. "Palestinian" refugees can. Refugees are encouraged to resettle in other countries or integrate in their host countries. UNWRA avoids such policies. The United Nations spends on a single "Palestinian" refugee almost three times more than on a non-"Palestinian" refugee and employs over 30 times the staff.

The bottom line is, throughout the 20th century, the UN found durable solutions for tens of millions of refugees, while the "Palestinian" Refugee Agency has found, well, none.

Some people may suggest this is hypocrisy.

600000 Jews from Arab states were resettled in Israel. History has proven that resettlement and integration helped tens of millions of refugees during the 20th century reclaim their lives.

However, the "Palestinian" refugees are trapped between Arab leaders unwilling to accept their brothers and UN agencies who do not apply equal and universal principles to all refugees.

Is this just?

 

[Philip_B]

So how did it all begin?

In May 1948, the local Arab population was joined by seven Arab countries in a collective attempt to destroy the newly reestablished Jewish state. Encouraged by Arab leaders who promised they would return as victors, and later on as a result of their failed war efforts, an estimated 500000 Arabs fled to neighboring Arab territories.

But is this the full picture?

I’d like you to take a look at the refugees in these photos

View attachment 369528View attachment 369529
View attachment 369530

Many people assume they are Arab refugees fleeing Israel. But in fact, they are innocent Jewish refugees forced out of Arab countries.

There were far more Jewish refugees than Arab refugees. Over 850000 Jews from ancient Jewish communities predating Islam and the Arab occupation of the Middle East where forced out of their homes. Jews were stripped of their citizenship in many countries, and their porperty was confiscated.

In contrast, 160000 Arabs accepted Israel’s offer to remain, and today, there are more than one million Israeli Arab citizens with full equal rights living in Israel.

Now here is a question.

Have you heard of any Jewish refugee camps?

I didn’t think so.

The jewish refugees were immediately welcomed and absorbed by Israel or by other nations.

Then why, after more than 60 years, are the Arab "Palestinian" refugees still not welcomed and absorbed among their own brethren?

View attachment 369537

And how could their numbers have grown from 500000 to 4700000 million?

The sad reality is that the arab refugees never had a chance.

Attempts at resettlement were blocked by a variety of discriminatory laws.

Enacted in Arab countries, such as a ban on receiving citizenship (with the exeption of Jordan), blocking them from entering many professions, restrictions on owning land, restrictions on movement and a denial of education and health services.

Sir Alexander Galloway, a former director of the UN Refugee Agency in Jordan, gave the reason for this discrimination

View attachment 369536

Egyptian President Gmal Abdel Nasser explained the effect of this weapon aimed at overwhelming Israel demographically, with generations of refugees cultivated to hate


View attachment 369535

And what role did the United Nations play?

Sadly, they were less than helpful.

View attachment 369532

While all refugees in the world are assisted by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), a separate agency, UNWRA, was established specifically for the "Palestinians"

View attachment 369533

Why can’t the "Palestinian" refugees share an agency with the refugees of Bosnia, Congo, or Darfur, to name a few?

View attachment 369534

The answer ist because while the UN Central Refugee Agency helps refugees resettle, the UN "Palestinian" Refugee Agency helps perpetuate their status by applying unique criteria.

For example refugees lose their status after receiving citizenship frm a recognized country. "Palestinian" refugees do not. Refugees cannot transmit their status from generation to generation. "Palestinian" refugees can. Refugees are encouraged to resettle in other countries or integrate in their host countries. UNWRA avoids such policies. The United Nations spends on a single "Palestinian" refugee almost three times more than on a non-"Palestinian" refugee and employs over 30 times the staff.

The bottom line is, throughout the 20th century, the UN found durable solutions for tens of millions of refugees, while the "Palestinian" Refugee Agency has found, well, none.

Some people may suggest this is hypocrisy.

600000 Jews from Arab states were resettled in Israel. History has proven that resettlement and integration helped tens of millions of refugees during the 20th century reclaim their lives.

However, the "Palestinian" refugees are trapped between Arab leaders unwilling to accept their brothers and UN agencies who do not apply equal and universal principles to all refugees.

Is this just?

The argument fails because it is premised upon regarding Palestinians as simply Arabs, interchangeable with any other sort of Arab. The Irish are as interchangeable with the English as the Belgians are interchangeable with either the Dutch or the French. Culture and heritage are part of who we are as people made in the image and after the likeness of God. So, in answer to your question, NO it is not just.

 

[rjs330]

The Irish are as interchangeable with the English as the Belgians are interchangeable with either the Dutch or the French. Culture and heritage are part of who we are as people made in the image and after the likeness of God.

What arw saying here? That all.white people are interchangeable, but olive skinned people aren't? What's all of this have to do with image of God?

The Arabs are the ones not allowing the Palestinians in. Could it be the Palestinian culture is too radical and violent for other Arabs?

 

[JosephZ]

Israel army begins targeting Gaza City high-rises

Despite mounting pressure at home and abroad to halt its nearly two-year offensive in Gaza, Israel has been calling up reinforcements, intensifying its bombardments and closing in on Gaza City ever since announcing its intention to capture the Palestinian territory's largest city.

Defence Minister Israel Katz said in a statement on Friday that "the bolt has now been removed from the gates of hell in Gaza", vowing to intensify operations until Hamas accepts Israel's terms to end the war.

"The news about Israel beginning to bomb towers and apartment buildings is terrifying. Everyone is scared and doesn't know where to go," said Ahmed Abu Wutfa, 45, who lives in his relatives' partially destroyed fifth-floor apartment in western Gaza City.

"My children are terrified, and so am I. There is no safe place -- we only hope that death comes quickly."

Israel expects its new offensive will displace around a million people towards the south.

 

[Philip_B]

What arw saying here? That all.white people are interchangeable, but olive skinned people aren't? What's all of this have to do with image of God?

The Arabs are the ones not allowing the Palestinians in. Could it be the Palestinian culture is too radical and violent for other Arabs?

I am not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or if your cultural blinkers are preventing you from seeing the meaning.

I said

The argument fails because it is premised upon regarding Palestinians as simply Arabs, interchangeable with any other sort of Arab. The Irish are as interchangeable with the English as the Belgians are interchangeable with either the Dutch or the French. Culture and heritage are part of who we are as people made in the image and after the likeness of God. So, in answer to your question, NO it is not just.​

The Irish do not see themselves as English, and the Belgians do not see themselves as being Dutch or French. I know that Canadians clearly want to see themselves as Canadian and not American (as in USA). Your argument fails in the same way. Canadians are most assuredly American, as Canada is surely part of North America. Palestinians are Semitic people and generally speak Arabic; however, they would distinguish themselves from other Arab Nations in the same way.

Another American Nation, of course, is Mexico, and it seems fairly evident that the United States is not overfond of Mexicans resettling in the United States en masse.

My point, in reference to Genesis 1:26, is that part of recognising the dignity of the human condition is to recognise that we are all of great worth, having been made in the image and after the likeness of God, yet we are all different, and part of that difference is culture.

 

[rjs330]

I am not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or if your cultural blinkers are preventing you from seeing the meaning.

I said

The argument fails because it is premised upon regarding Palestinians as simply Arabs, interchangeable with any other sort of Arab. The Irish are as interchangeable with the English as the Belgians are interchangeable with either the Dutch or the French. Culture and heritage are part of who we are as people made in the image and after the likeness of God. So, in answer to your question, NO it is not just.​

The Irish do not see themselves as English, and the Belgians do not see themselves as being Dutch or French. I know that Canadians clearly want to see themselves as Canadian and not American (as in USA). Your argument fails in the same way. Canadians are most assuredly American, as Canada is surely part of North America. Palestinians are Semitic people and generally speak Arabic; however, they would distinguish themselves from other Arab Nations in the same way.

Another American Nation, of course, is Mexico, and it seems fairly evident that the United States is not overfond of Mexicans resettling in the United States en masse.

My point, in reference to Genesis 1:26, is that part of recognising the dignity of the human condition is to recognise that we are all of great worth, having been made in the image and after the likeness of God, yet we are all different, and part of that difference is culture.

Thanks for clarifying, I was confused about what you were saying.

The thing is though most places one group can still mix with another without any problems, especially when in rhe same region. While our culture might be a bit different than Canada, we could easily go live in Canada without much trouble and Canadians could come here. In fact it appears that almost anyone from anywhere can come here to America and live here. And Americans will allow it as long as you are here legally and don't cause any trouble. We have people here from all over the world and we are pretty tolerant about it.

An Irishman, could go live in England and vice versa or a Fenchman could live in Ireland and vice versa. Language might be a bit if a barrier, but you could adjust to the culture fairly quickly if allowed to live there.

It doesn't seem to be that way with other Arabic countries and the Palestinians. Are their cultures that wildly different? What is it that is so wildly different that they just can't adapt or fit in? Rhe Arabic countries aren't tolerant at all about rhe Palestinians apparently.

 

[Philip_B]

Thanks for clarifying, I was confused about what you were saying.

The thing is though most places one group can still mix with another without any problems, especially when in rhe same region. While our culture might be a bit different than Canada, we could easily go live in Canada without much trouble and Canadians could come here. In fact it appears that almost anyone from anywhere can come here to America and live here. And Americans will allow it as long as you are here legally and don't cause any trouble. We have people here from all over the world and we are pretty tolerant about it.

An Irishman, could go live in England and vice versa or a Fenchman could live in Ireland and vice versa. Language might be a bit if a barrier, but you could adjust to the culture fairly quickly if allowed to live there.

It doesn't seem to be that way with other Arabic countries and the Palestinians. Are their cultures that wildly different? What is it that is so wildly different that they just can't adapt or fit in? Rhe Arabic countries aren't tolerant at all about rhe Palestinians apparently.

How would the USA feel about having to accommodate a large block of Canadians as in several million? Maybe not so accommodating.

 

[Benaiah468]

The argument fails because it is premised upon regarding Palestinians as simply Arabs, interchangeable with any other sort of Arab.

The Arab refugee problem was caused by a war of aggression waged by the Arab states against Israel in 1947 and 1948. Let us be very clear here: if there had been no war against Israel with the resulting bloodshed, misery, panic, and flight, there would be no Arab refugee problem today. Once you have identified responsibility for this war, you have determined responsibility for the refugee problem.