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Israel-Hamas Thread II

Injeun

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There had been a lot of murdering by Israel before October 7
View attachment 356639



quoted from The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict

Best to stick to the facts and avoid personalizing this e.g. "now you cry" for what is written in an online forum
Stop attacking Israel. Israel left Gaza to Gazans eighteen years ago and haven't been back until after 10/7/23 when Hamas attacked Israel. Was Israel in Gaza before 10/7? No. Did Israel attack Gaza, murdering, raping, butchering and kidnapping before 10/7? No. This is all an attempt by Iran to disrupt the Abraham accords and squash peace. It is to eliminate Israel and bring about Islamic domination of the human race. At any rate, terrorists shouldn't start what they can't finish. And if they use the general population as human shields, then it is on them. It should be noted that Gazans elected Hamas to power. They are a sick bunch.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Was Israel in Gaza before 10/7? No.
Yes.

In late 2008, Israel raided part of the Gaza Strip to destroy Hamas tunnels,[126] leading to clashes and a short war.[127] Israel surrounded and invaded Gaza,[128] heavily bombing the city.[129] The war resulted in more than 1,000 Gazan deaths.[131]

In 2014, Israel initiated a war against Hamas, aiming to stop its rocket fire.[132] Israel bombed the Strip and city, and eventually invaded it. Israel entered the Shuja'iyya neighborhood, resulting in a battle with heavy civilian casualties.
2,251 Gazans were killed in the war, 65 percent of which were civilians, according to the UN.[134]
 
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rjs330

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Yes.

In late 2008, Israel raided part of the Gaza Strip to destroy Hamas tunnels,[126] leading to clashes and a short war.[127] Israel surrounded and invaded Gaza,[128] heavily bombing the city.[129] The war resulted in more than 1,000 Gazan deaths.[131]

In 2014, Israel initiated a war against Hamas, aiming to stop its rocket fire.[132] Israel bombed the Strip and city, and eventually invaded it. Israel entered the Shuja'iyya neighborhood, resulting in a battle with heavy civilian casualties.
2,251 Gazans were killed in the war, 65 percent of which were civilians, according to the UN.[134]
That's not what he's talking about and you know it.

Did you happen to notice the common factor in both of those scenarios? Hamas. Which the Palestinians supported in their fight to destroy Jews.

Isreal would not have "raided" Gaza if it weren't for Gaza working to attack them.
Israel left completely.
 
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Vanellus

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Stop attacking Israel. Israel left Gaza to Gazans eighteen years ago and haven't been back until after 10/7/23 when Hamas attacked Israel. Was Israel in Gaza before 10/7? No. Did Israel attack Gaza, murdering, raping, butchering and kidnapping before 10/7? No. This is all an attempt by Iran to disrupt the Abraham accords and squash peace. It is to eliminate Israel and bring about Islamic domination of the human race. At any rate, terrorists shouldn't start what they can't finish. And if they use the general population as human shields, then it is on them. It should be noted that Gazans elected Hamas to power. They are a sick bunch.
Stating facts is not "attacking".

The IDF have used Palestinians as human shields
Palestinians describe being used as ‘human shields’ by Israeli troops in Gaza

Did Israel attack Gaza before Oct 7 2023
Answer - yes:
Gaza War (2008–2009) - Wikipedia
A six month long ceasefire between Israel and Hamas ended on 4 November, when the IDF made a raid into Deir al-Balah, central Gaza to destroy a tunnel, killing several Hamas militants
scrnli_dmO1c9wUvgccPb.png


In Israel they elect terrorists as Prime Ministers!
Menachem Begin (Hebrew: מְנַחֵם בֵּגִין Menaḥem Begin, pronounced [menaˈχem ˈbeɡin] ; Polish: Menachem Begin (Polish documents, 1931–1937);[1][2] Russian: Менахем Вольфович Бегин, romanized: Menakhem Volfovich Begin; 16 August 1913 – 9 March 1992) was an Israeli politician, founder of both Herut and Likud and the sixth Prime Minister of Israel.

Before the creation of the state of Israel, he was the leader of the Zionist militant group Irgun, the Revisionist breakaway from the larger Jewish paramilitary organization Haganah. He proclaimed a revolt, on 1 February 1944, against the British mandatory government, which was opposed by the Jewish Agency. As head of the Irgun, he targeted the British in Palestine.[3] Later, the Irgun fought the Arabs during the 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and, as its chief, Begin was described by the British government as the "leader of the notorious terrorist organisation". It declined him an entry visa to the United Kingdom between 1953 and 1955. However, Begin's overtures of friendship eventually paid off and he was granted a visa in 1972, five years prior to becoming prime minister.[4]
 
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Landon Caeli

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Vanellus

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If one only shared certain facts, and excluded others to create an imbalanced picture, it might be perceived as an "attack".
It was in response to:
"Did Israel attack Gaza, murdering, raping, butchering and kidnapping before 10/7? No"
when clearly the correct answer was yes as far as the murdering is concerned according to the above figures.

The figures show deaths for both sides. The imbalance comes from the fact that Israel kills far more Palestinians than vice versa.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Nearly 70% of verified Gaza war dead are women and children, UN says

The UN's Human Rights Office has condemned the high number of civilians killed in the war in Gaza, saying its analysis shows close to 70% of verified victims over a six-month period were women and children.

The report said it found "unprecedented" levels of international law violations, raising concerns about "war crimes and other possible atrocity crimes".

The UN said Palestinian armed groups have waged war from densely-populated areas and indiscriminately used projectiles, likely contributing to the death toll, while the IDF has destroyed civilian infrastructure and "left many of those alive, injured, displaced and starving, without access to adequate water, food or healthcare".

The situation is worst in north Gaza, which aid groups say has been under siege since early October when Israel launched a new ground offensive against Hamas.

The UN said no food aid entered the north during the first two weeks of October.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Nearly 70% of verified Gaza war dead are women and children, UN says

The UN's Human Rights Office has condemned the high number of civilians killed in the war in Gaza, saying its analysis shows close to 70% of verified victims over a six-month period were women and children.

The report said it found "unprecedented" levels of international law violations, raising concerns about "war crimes and other possible atrocity crimes".

The UN said Palestinian armed groups have waged war from densely-populated areas and indiscriminately used projectiles, likely contributing to the death toll, while the IDF has destroyed civilian infrastructure and "left many of those alive, injured, displaced and starving, without access to adequate water, food or healthcare".

The situation is worst in north Gaza, which aid groups say has been under siege since early October when Israel launched a new ground offensive against Hamas.

The UN said no food aid entered the north during the first two weeks of October.
Is the UN considered a reliable source? Because I don't believe that's true.

...If I'm not mistaken, all the death tolls so far have been recorded by and proclaimed by Hamas. So if the UN is going by their statistics, or by Iranian influence, then why should anyone believe it.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Because I don't believe that's true.
One previous IDF estimate was that just over half of the dead are noncombatants.

...If I'm not mistaken, all the death tolls so far have been recorded by and proclaimed by Hamas. So if the UN is going by their statistics,
They are not. These are dead people, the details of which the UN was able to independently verify.

The UN agency said it verified the details of 8,119 people killed in Gaza from November 2023 to April 2024.

That's only about 20% of the total reported dead, but these were independently verified by the UN.
 
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Vanellus

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Is the UN considered a reliable source? Because I don't believe that's true.

...If I'm not mistaken, all the death tolls so far have been recorded by and proclaimed by Hamas. So if the UN is going by their statistics, or by Iranian influence, then why should anyone believe it.
It's a matter of who you prefe to believe isn't it. The Israeli government and the IDF vs UN, World Health Organisation, Reuters, figures from previous conflicts etc. Now why does Israel prevent foreign journalists from entering Gaza? So they can cast doubt on the journalists (e.g from Al Jazeera) who are there of course.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...-gaza-death-toll-figures-who-says-2024-05-14/

This is a despicable distraction tactic of course. Oh well it's only 40,000 not 50,000 dead and only 60% not 70% are women and children. So it's not really that bad is it! There is a big problem with this argument - it is disgusting.
 
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essentialsaltes

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The U.S. demanded that Israel surge aid to Gaza. Little has changed.

A Post analysis based on more than a dozen interviews found Israel has largely failed to comply with U.S. demands, bringing parts of northern Gaza closer to famine.

Last month, the Biden administration gave Israel an unusually stark ultimatum: Improve aid access to hunger-ravaged Gaza in the next 30 days, or risk losing some American military support. With the deadline set to expire Tuesday, humanitarian organizations say Israel has failed to follow through, bringing the Palestinian enclave to the brink of mass starvation.

On Nov. 4, State Department spokesman Matthew Miller told a news conference that Israel had not yet implemented most of the U.S. recommendations.

The State Department told The Post it would provide a detailed update on the humanitarian situation in Gaza on Tuesday.

Across the enclave, Israel is permitting just over 30 humanitarian trucks into Gaza per day, Philippe Lazzarini, head of the U.N. agency for refugees, or UNRWA, said Saturday on X. The United Nations counts only trucks whose cargo has been picked up from the Gaza side of the border and taken to distribution centers, which requires Israeli coordination.

Even [Israel's Agency overseeing the occupied Palestinian territory] COGAT’s own count — 58 daily trucks in October, on average — is still a fraction of the 350 daily minimum requested by Washington.
 
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essentialsaltes

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[Before the election]

Trump Is Desperate for Miriam Adelson's Cash. Her Condition: West Bank Annexation

Miriam Adelson wants to be his biggest donor, but in return she wants Israeli sovereignty over the West Bank

After the election:

Eyeing Trump support, Israeli minister pushes for West Bank settlement annexation

Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, has ordered preparations for the annexation of settlements in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

Smotrich, who is in charge of the settlements, said on Monday that he had instructed his department to “prepare the necessary infrastructure for applying sovereignty.”

Smotrich told the Knesset, or Israeli parliament, that US President-elect Donald Trump’s victory in the US election “brings an important opportunity for the state of Israel.”
 
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tampasteve

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Annex the whole of Gaza and Judea and Samaria, the Arab population has proven they are unwilling to accept Jewish or Israeli presence in the region. Surveys show that a vast majority of the populace supports the activities of Hamas and the atrocity of October 7th. If a dog bites you too many times it will be put down.
 
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essentialsaltes

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essentialsaltes

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Gangs looting Gaza aid operate in areas under Israeli control, aid groups say

A U.N. memo obtained by The Post concluded that gangs “may be benefiting from a passive if not active benevolence” or “protection” from Israel’s military.

As Gaza’s hunger crisis worsens, organized gangs are stealing much of the aid Israel allows into the enclave, operating freely in areas controlled by the Israeli military, according to aid group officials, humanitarian workers, transport companies and witnesses.

The thieves, who have run cigarette-smuggling operations throughout this year but are now also stealing food and other supplies, are tied to local crime families, residents say. The gangs are described by observers as rivals of Hamas and, in some cases, they have been targeted by remnants of Hamas’s security forces in other parts of the enclave.

As Washington urges Israel to allow more trucks into Gaza, looting has become the greatest obstacle to distributing the limited aid that does make it in, according to a U.S. official, who added that Hamas is not behind the attacks — an assessment that was widely shared by those operating on the ground.

“We have not seen any physical interference from Hamas anywhere in our programs, north or south,” an official from a major international aid organization said.

Aid organizations say Israeli authorities have denied most of their requests for better measures to safeguard convoys, including appeals for safer routes, more open crossings and permission to allow Gaza’s civilian police to protect the trucks. Israeli forces within view of the attacks have also failed on multiple occasions to intervene as looting was underway, aid workers, U.N. officials, transport workers and truck drivers say.

The IDF [denies the allegations and says it] is “working to enable and facilitate the transfer of aid,” the statement added.

This story is based on more than 20 interviews with representatives from a range of international aid organizations, Palestinian businessmen involved in the transport of goods, and witnesses to attacks on humanitarian convoys.
 
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DaisyDay

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A statement said a pre-trial chamber had rejected Israel’s challenges to the court’s jurisdiction and issued warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant.
A warrant was also issued for Mohammed Deif, although the Israeli military has said he was killed in an air strike in Gaza in July.
The judges said there were “reasonable grounds” the three men bore "criminal responsibility" for alleged war crimes and crimes against humanity during the war between Israel and Hamas. Both Israel and Hamas have rejected the allegations.
It will now be up to the ICC's 124 member states - which do not include Israel or its ally, the United States - to decide whether or not to enforce the warrants.

This was a long time coming. Will the US give the Israelis sanctuary?
 
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essentialsaltes

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It will now be up to the ICC's 124 member states - which do not include Israel or its ally, the United States - to decide whether or not to enforce the warrants.

This was a long time coming. Will the US give the Israelis sanctuary?
As I understand it, they're safe as long as they stay in Israel (or the US or other non-member states).

If they visit ICC member states, those states have an obligation to arrest them. Even then, weaker countries may quail at arresting leaders of powerful countries, as when Putin visited Mongolia in September.
 
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Landon Caeli

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As I understand it, they're safe as long as they stay in Israel (or the US or other non-member states).

If they visit ICC member states, those states have an obligation to arrest them. Even then, weaker countries may quail at arresting leaders of powerful countries, as when Putin visited Mongolia in September.
I can't think of any acting President or national leader who has been arrested by a foreign government while serving office. Imagine Kazakhstan abducting Joe Biden, and putting him in prison today for supplying weapons to Ukraine. What would the US's response be to that?

IMO, I highly doubt any 1st world country, whose primary leader has been abducted, would stand by idly, and wait the trial out... It would be "insta-war".
 
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